$1000 is handed to you to invest long-term in CGC Copper Age what do you do?

[ComicConnoisseur]

What about Amazing Spiderman #36 the 911 comic? Does anybody know the print run?

Seems to be a book of some significance.

[Bosco685]

What about Amazing Spiderman #36 the 911 comic? Does anybody know the print run?

Seems to be a book of some significance.

Aren't these constantly offered on Ebay? I've seen a few signed too, which the black cover makes silver ink really stand out.

[Gatsby77]

He said now, not in 2008.

 

You've neatly ignored both the census and sales history of this book in making your "counterpoint."

 

How's that? I simply said I believe Batman # 428 will continue to lose value in the next five years--so, perhaps not the best investment ("now, not in 2008").

 

The sales history of the book, as shown by GPA, bears that out.

 

The 90 day average shows 9.8's have lost over 60% of their value since 2008, and over 18% of their value since 2009. Further, the last recorded GPA sale (32 days ago) was 17% below even that 90 day average.

 

Explain to me again how that "sales history" does not reflect a downward trend?

 

Re. the census, there are 5x as many 9.8s on the census as there were four years ago. And more will appear, contributing to the downward trend we've seen in many Copper Age age books that are in abundant supply.

 

This is a good thing. Means that lots more collectors will be able to get an iconic book (and amazing Mignola cover) at an affordable price.

 

(thumbs u

 

[jimjum12]

Alan Moore stuff might be decent....select Swamp Things (especially if a good movie comes out) and some of the Miracle Man issues. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

He said now, not in 2008.

 

You've neatly ignored both the census and sales history of this book in making your "counterpoint."

 

How's that? I simply said I believe Batman # 428 will continue to lose value in the next five years--so, perhaps not the best investment ("now, not in 2008").

 

The sales history of the book, as shown by GPA, bears that out.

 

No, it does not. That's why I said you have neatly ignored both the census history AND the sales history of this book.

 

You absolutely cannot consider the last three years for much of Copper material when making market analyses without SERIOUS qualifications, which you have utterly neglected to do.

 

When that 2008 average was "established" (and yes, that word should be used very loosely), there were 7 copies of this book in 9.8 on the census. That market was driven by people who wanted that book, and were willing to pay the price to obtain one. But that market was so thin, it cannot be used as a reliable indicator of anything.

 

The same is true for books like Spidey #301, Punisher #1, GI Joe #21....all had extremely high prices because they *had* been difficult to find in high grade.

 

BUT....the difference is, those books have all, to varying degrees, resisted floods to the census. When Batman #428 sold for nearly $1,000, that was mighty incentive to anyone and everyone who was paying attention to slab (including me.) The result? There are now 32 9.8s on the census. But that's 32, not 232. After two and a half years, only 25 more copies have been slabbed at that grade.

 

That's nothing.

 

In the same time, the population for New Mutants #98 went from 200+ copies to 554 in 9.8, a staggering number. Because there are so many copies of New Mutants #98 available in all grades, if the book showed any kind of upward movement, there are plenty of copies to be had to fill the demand.

 

But if there was any demand for Batman #428...the chances are far, far greater that the book could advance rapidly in price, because the available pool of supply is so much smaller. And I can guarantee you that there will NEVER, EVER be 554 copies of Batman #428 in 9.8 on the census.

 

Feel free to quote me.

 

So to say "the 90 day average is 60% off the 2008 average" without explaining all that I just did is to woefully misinform.

 

The 90 day average shows 9.8's have lost over 60% of their value since 2008, and over 18% of their value since 2009. Further, the last recorded GPA sale (32 days ago) was 17% below even that 90 day average.

 

And the two before that both HIGHER than the 90 day average, thus making the average! You cannot just throw out these numbers with no explanation. It's BAD finance.

 

From a low of $84...both because I wasn't paying attention, or they would NOT have ended at that price...the value of the book is UP in the last 18 months. That shows that the market for this book has stabilized, and there is still demand.

 

Explain to me again how that "sales history" does not reflect a downward trend?

 

Since I never said that, I'll have to defer to someone else.

 

Re. the census, there are 5x as many 9.8s on the census as there were four years ago. And more will appear, contributing to the downward trend we've seen in many Copper Age age books that are in abundant supply.

 

Not quite, but close enough. But you're still ignoring the REAL numbers behind your "stats", and why they have bearing on this discussion. In the next 5 years, the census will NOT advance ANOTHER "5x"

 

This is a good thing. Means that lots more collectors will be able to get an iconic book (and amazing Mignola cover) at an affordable price.

 

(thumbs u

 

Um. If you say so.

 

I'll take all the #428 9.8s for $150 that you can find. Your purchases were pure luck, chance, and had I (and I am part of the market, too) seen them before you, they wouldn't be yours.

 

That counts, too.

 

Like I said before...using the parameters established by the OP...I'd focus on low census (less than 100) keys in super high grade that have stabilized in price. That's really your best bet as far as investment goes.

[nickwire]

turtles 1, ASM 300 , dave stevens covers, all the usual suspects that everyone has allready said

[Mr 9.8]

What about Amazing Spiderman #36 the 911 comic? Does anybody know the print run?

Seems to be a book of some significance.

That's a Modern book.

[ComicConnoisseur]

What about Amazing Spiderman #36 the 911 comic? Does anybody know the print run?

Seems to be a book of some significance.

That's a Modern book.

yep I should have read my original post.

[500Club]

buy as many NM 98 CGC 9.8's as i can.

 

I wouldn't recommend this. I think after the Deadpool movie craze dies down, NM 98 will go down. Hopefully not, but...

 

the keyword is "long-term".

 

The key word is supply.

[500Club]

Batman #428, for example.

What's so important that happened in that issue?

 

Robin (Jason Todd) dies in that issue.

 

It's the single most important Copper Batman book (which isn't saying all that much, but still...)

 

Much more importantly, it steadfastly resists upward movement in the census. It has a tiny fraction compared to books like Spidey #300 (even though the demand for Spidey #300 is clearly much larger.)

 

Rare census keys, however, stand a much greater chance of advancing rapidly in price during a boom. Consider the aforementioned Spidey #300. Average right now is about $650. If there was some reason that the book became "hot" again, available copies would flood the market, and prices would stabilize quickly.

 

If Bats #428 experienced a resurgence, because there are so few high grade copies to begin with, those copies already graded would typically enjoy a much higher spike in value, and it would take a longer time for prices to stabilize.

 

It's just an odds game, but with better odds.

 

Interesting points/counterpoints made.

 

Here's the big question, though.... why are people going to want Batman 428 years from now? What will the demand driver be? At the end of the day, the book's significant event has been retconned out.

[500Club]

Where would I put my money instead? Tick Special Editions, the TMNT 1 I already mentioned,

 

Oh, and since you mentioned these....

 

Turtles #1 is down nearly 30% from its 2007 high in 9.6, and more than 30% off it's 2005 high in 9.4. What's more, there have only been a combined total of 35 copies (Universal) sold in the last TWO YEARS in EVERY condition, with record prices being achieved right now in the mid-grade range.

 

It makes no sense to buy at the top, or near it, and an available pool of only 35 copies in every single grade does not make a solid "investment" pick. For items to be "a good investment", they have to be reasonably obtainable by the average person for market prices. If you cannot obtain a copy without paying a premium for it, that defeats the point of it as an investment.

 

As for the Ticks, they fare even worse. A grand total of 22 CGC copies of #1 and 15 (!) copies of #2, in ANY grade, have been sold since GPA started keeping records in 2002. A 9.8 copy hasn't sold for almost a year and a half. Only 4 copies of the book, in any grade, have come up for sale in the last year. We can't even analyze these sales because the data is so scarce. How does one invest in a book they cannot buy......?

 

That knife you wielded...it cuts both ways.

 

Not sure I like this argument, Rocky. Minimal extant copies hasn't stopped books and other collectibles from being investments in the past.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Batman #428, for example.

What's so important that happened in that issue?

 

Robin (Jason Todd) dies in that issue.

 

It's the single most important Copper Batman book (which isn't saying all that much, but still...)

 

Much more importantly, it steadfastly resists upward movement in the census. It has a tiny fraction compared to books like Spidey #300 (even though the demand for Spidey #300 is clearly much larger.)

 

Rare census keys, however, stand a much greater chance of advancing rapidly in price during a boom. Consider the aforementioned Spidey #300. Average right now is about $650. If there was some reason that the book became "hot" again, available copies would flood the market, and prices would stabilize quickly.

 

If Bats #428 experienced a resurgence, because there are so few high grade copies to begin with, those copies already graded would typically enjoy a much higher spike in value, and it would take a longer time for prices to stabilize.

 

It's just an odds game, but with better odds.

 

Interesting points/counterpoints made.

 

Here's the big question, though.... why are people going to want Batman 428 years from now? What will the demand driver be? At the end of the day, the book's significant event has been retconned out.

Are you saying something similar to ASM 121 and 122? Green Goblin now has been alive longer then he was dead.

[500Club]

[Here's the big question, though.... why are people going to want Batman 428 years from now? What will the demand driver be? At the end of the day, the book's significant event has been retconned out.

Are you saying something similar to ASM 121 and 122? Green Goblin now has been alive longer then he was dead.

 

It's an example that does argue against my point. (thumbs u

 

ASM 122 was a key for so many years, though, that I think in many ways it has become cemented in collectors' minds as such. I just don't see Batman 428 following in the footsteps of ASM 122.

 

'Dead' in '73, back in '98

[RockMyAmadeus]

Batman #428, for example.

What's so important that happened in that issue?

 

Robin (Jason Todd) dies in that issue.

 

It's the single most important Copper Batman book (which isn't saying all that much, but still...)

 

Much more importantly, it steadfastly resists upward movement in the census. It has a tiny fraction compared to books like Spidey #300 (even though the demand for Spidey #300 is clearly much larger.)

 

Rare census keys, however, stand a much greater chance of advancing rapidly in price during a boom. Consider the aforementioned Spidey #300. Average right now is about $650. If there was some reason that the book became "hot" again, available copies would flood the market, and prices would stabilize quickly.

 

If Bats #428 experienced a resurgence, because there are so few high grade copies to begin with, those copies already graded would typically enjoy a much higher spike in value, and it would take a longer time for prices to stabilize.

 

It's just an odds game, but with better odds.

 

Interesting points/counterpoints made.

 

Here's the big question, though.... why are people going to want Batman 428 years from now? What will the demand driver be? At the end of the day, the book's significant event has been retconned out.

 

That's a good question, and I'll give you a good answer: because the book has passed into legend.

 

I know you know what I mean, but I'll explain for those who don't: because the book was so immensely huge (it was, in fact, the most sought after modern book of 1989), and because of what it accomplished in such a novel way, it irrevocably woven into the fabric of the 1980's. If you surveyed 1,000 random people on what was the most important comic event of 1988, and let them choose from a list of 10 or 20, Death of Robin would be #1 on the majority of lists. It was just that much of an event (and when a comic event is big enough to reach the New York Times, it's pretty big.)

 

It was easily the biggest DC news story in comics proper until the death of Superman four years later.

 

And, even though the character of Jason Todd has been "revived", most folks don't know that there even WAS a Jason Todd...they just know that it was the death of Robin.

 

Still not convinced? Consider Amazing Spiderman #121-122. It's now been retconned that Norman Osborn did NOT die, and Gwen Stacy has been brought back a couple (of dozen) times...but those books were so important when they came out, they quickly passed into legend, and have never lost their status as keys in the run (and never will, so long as Spidey is collected.)

 

So, yes, while events are often retconned out of continuity by later creators, some events transcend those retcons and become a part of industry legend, and will always retain that status. Batman #428 will always, on the strength of what it was when it came out, and even if those events are done away with, be the most important Bat book of the 1980's (yes, even beyond Dark Knight #1), and because of that, will always be an important key from that era.

[Bronty]

the most important Bat book of the 1980's (yes, even beyond Dark Knight #1), and because of that, will always be an important key from that era.

 

you sir, are high or a coinee. or not collecting at the time. or all three

 

You're simply flat out 100,000% wrong to call that the most important bat book of the 1980s.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Where would I put my money instead? Tick Special Editions, the TMNT 1 I already mentioned,

 

Oh, and since you mentioned these....

 

Turtles #1 is down nearly 30% from its 2007 high in 9.6, and more than 30% off it's 2005 high in 9.4. What's more, there have only been a combined total of 35 copies (Universal) sold in the last TWO YEARS in EVERY condition, with record prices being achieved right now in the mid-grade range.

 

It makes no sense to buy at the top, or near it, and an available pool of only 35 copies in every single grade does not make a solid "investment" pick. For items to be "a good investment", they have to be reasonably obtainable by the average person for market prices. If you cannot obtain a copy without paying a premium for it, that defeats the point of it as an investment.

 

As for the Ticks, they fare even worse. A grand total of 22 CGC copies of #1 and 15 (!) copies of #2, in ANY grade, have been sold since GPA started keeping records in 2002. A 9.8 copy hasn't sold for almost a year and a half. Only 4 copies of the book, in any grade, have come up for sale in the last year. We can't even analyze these sales because the data is so scarce. How does one invest in a book they cannot buy......?

 

That knife you wielded...it cuts both ways.

 

Not sure I like this argument, Rocky. Minimal extant copies hasn't stopped books and other collectibles from being investments in the past.

 

Sure it has.

 

If something is functionally unobtainable, it cannot be used as an example of "what to invest in."

 

Consider OA. What's a good piece to invest in? Let's say the original cover to Amazing Fantasy #15. Well, good idea....except that piece resides in a permanent national collection, and is unobtainable at ANY price. Certainly would be a good investment though, right?

 

That's why the fine art market talks so little about "investment potential." Sure, one of Picasso's Blue Period paintings would make a FINE investment...now what do you tell everybody but the one person who bought that one piece that's come up in the last 5 years what *they* should invest in?

 

Investments should be reasonably obtainable by any investor with the cash available for the going market price. If an item is so rare that it only comes up for sale a couple dozen times over the span of years, that's not something that will be a readily obtainable investment.

 

In other words, if every person reading this, with the cash available to purchase it, isn't able to do just that in the next week or so, it can't be good investment "advice", because it cannot be acted upon by many....or even a few...of those being so advised.

[RockMyAmadeus]

the most important Bat book of the 1980's (yes, even beyond Dark Knight #1), and because of that, will always be an important key from that era.

 

you sir, are high or a coinee. or not collecting at the time. or all three

 

You're simply flat out 100,000% wrong to call that the most important bat book of the 1980s.

 

So, do you imagine it's Dark Knight Returns?

 

Close, but not quite. DKR #1 was an industry hit, but nobody knew about it who didn't already buy comics.

 

It's also not Killing Joke, because, in the end, that's not a Bat book...it's a Joker book, and it's an Alan Moore book.

 

It's certainly not Legends of the Dark Knight #1.

 

That leaves essentially Bats #319-442, 'Tec #490-609, plus B&B up to #200, Batman & the Outsiders, and that's about it.

 

Batman #428 did what no book had done since Conan #1 in 1970, and what no other book would do until 2000 with Ultimate Spiderman #1: it rose faster and higher in price than any book outside of those two, and became the most demanded new back issue for over a year.

 

As well, it was the most important book DC produced from a media standpoint since...well, who knows? And until Superman #75, it was the most famous DC book in recent memory.

 

And even if you disagree and think DKR #1 is a more important book (even though it got zero coverage by the media), Bats #428 is clearly #2...which is a far, far cry from being "100,000% wrong."

 

 

So.....which is it?

[dupont2005]

the most important Bat book of the 1980's (yes, even beyond Dark Knight #1), and because of that, will always be an important key from that era.

 

you sir, are high or a coinee. or not collecting at the time. or all three

 

You're simply flat out 100,000% wrong to call that the most important bat book of the 1980s.

Most important Bat book

 

I know it's the first comic I ever bought new off the stands. Before that I only got quarter comics, but the day I saw that book I begged my mom for it and she got it for me

[HouseofComics.Com]

I thought DKR got coverage in Rolling Stone?

[Bronty]

the most important Bat book of the 1980's (yes, even beyond Dark Knight #1), and because of that, will always be an important key from that era.

 

you sir, are high or a coinee. or not collecting at the time. or all three

 

You're simply flat out 100,000% wrong to call that the most important bat book of the 1980s.

 

So, do you imagine it's Dark Knight Returns?

 

Close, but not quite. DKR #1 was an industry hit, but nobody knew about it who didn't already buy comics.

 

It's also not Killing Joke, because, in the end, that's not a Bat book...it's a Joker book, and it's an Alan Moore book.

 

It's certainly not Legends of the Dark Knight #1.

 

That leaves essentially Bats #319-442, 'Tec #490-609, plus B&B up to #200, Batman & the Outsiders, and that's about it.

 

Batman #428 did what no book had done since Conan #1 in 1970, and what no other book would do until 2000 with Ultimate Spiderman #1: it rose faster and higher in price than any book outside of those two, and became the most demanded new back issue for over a year.

 

As well, it was the most important book DC produced from a media standpoint since...well, who knows? And until Superman #75, it was the most famous DC book in recent memory.

 

And even if you disagree and think DKR #1 is a more important book (even though it got zero coverage by the media), Bats #428 is clearly #2...which is a far, far cry from being "100,000% wrong."

 

 

So.....which is it?

 

media coverage does not equal importance. sure the death of robin made for a cutesy easy to understand story in the newspaper. but that book had little to no creative impact on the industry. The only impact it had was pushing us a little further down the gimmick train towards the collapse of the industry.

 

both DKR and KJ and Year 1 would rank ahead, off the top of my head without taking any time to really think about it. Joker book? He may be the focus but I've never seen a joker book that wasn't also a bat book.

 

So if you want to call it the most publicized bat book of the 1980s go right ahead. But it was an OK story and not something that changed the whole course of the industry a la DKR. The way importance is usually talked about here is either a) historical importance or more likely b) creative importance. This book had neither.