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Dishonest Seller

Started by royig-migration,

486 posts in this topic

Bosco685

Bosco685

Posted
Posted
in technical terms, I would have to agree... but in realistic terms, how does adding a drop of glue "restore" a book... I think of it more as a defect...cgc'd universal label with a note of glue is not saying it is "unrestored" (they have clearly noted the glue!), simply that it is not, in their opinion, "restored" to the point that if that glue is removed, it would not affect the grade... 6 one way, half a dozen the other

Is this a situation where due to the production back then there was glue, or post-printing? If it is post-printing, then it is restoration.

 

Why add more confusion into the mix for collectors by having a scenario of not enough restoration to require a PLOD? The notes alone are going to make it a challenge to sell to the average collector.

 

Not arguing - just interested in CGC's decision-making with this type book.

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InvstmntComcSuply

InvstmntComcSuply

Posted
Posted
becomes an issue of "quantity" of color touch or glue...if there is an obvious amount, regardless of whether it visually improves or not, then it is "restored"...if the quantity is so minor as to not affect the grade, an in theory be removable and not affect grade,

in other words, if someone scraped that teeny bit of glue and color touch off, it would still be a 6.5...so, cgc notes it...

 

I have seen allusions to this in several threads but has anyone from CGC ever put something like that in writing or is it simply "understood". And by "understood", I mean NOT understood by most, misunderstood by many and interpreted to their best advantage by others, depending on what side of the transaction they are on.

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G.A.tor

G.A.tor

Posted
Posted
If it's so easy then why didn't you take the risk and scrape off the minor glue and color touch? What if it was amateur? Are you willing to put a hole in the book to get rid of it? Chop of a corner? Disfigure a book? Isn't the book worth more if those notes aren't there? It is to me.

 

Every attempt at "restoration removal" comes with risk.

 

How do I get sole discretion applied to Silver age keys?

strickly cost consideration for me...though you are absolutely correct, there is always a risk factor involved...so that has to be factored in as well!

 

on the cost front, why pay matt nelson $200-400 to scrape and press (or whatever the cost is)...pay $100+ in shipping back and forth...pay cgc $1000 to reslab, etc... the book is what it is...and it is fully disclosed right there (not like one is trying to sell a "known" restored book as "unrestored"... )

 

no doubt the "purists" won't be attracted to this book, and my guess is high grade collectors don't like ...but, for many GA collectors, they do like and they do understand...and since I like to collect comics (restored or otherwise), just becomes an issue of education imo (thumbs u

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bluechip

bluechip

Posted
Posted
For those that don't know, any book with color touch or restoration will only receive a purple label if the color touch or restoration actually improves the grade of the book.

 

If the color touch or restoration does not improve the grade of the book, the book goes into a blue label with a notation on the label of the color touch and glue.

 

Are you talking only GA there, Roy? (shrug)

 

Sorry, yes. GA only.

 

:foryou:

 

Are you sure? I've seen lots of low grade GA books with color touch that didn't seem to improve anything. And I think we've all seen PLODs in "apparent poor" .5 condition.

becomes an issue of "quantity" of color touch or glue...if there is an obvious amount, regardless of whether it visually improves or not, then it is "restored"...if the quantity is so minor as to not affect the grade, an in theory be removable and not affect grade, this just clarifies that (from what I understand)

in other words, if someone scraped that teeny bit of glue and color touch off, it would still be a 6.5...so, cgc notes it...

 

If it was up to Bluechip, they'd all be in Blue labels and there would be no such thing as Restoration :insane:

 

I think differing label colors are not necessary and not as good as words saying the same thing in words. If you disagree that's fine but I won't call you crazy because of it.

 

Back when books were advertised as restored without different label colors people had much less of an issue with them and they sold pretty easily. Some people don;t like them and that's their choice, but among those who don't like it are some who just can't stand the fact that other people are okay with it. The label colors are good for those people, but they lead to the sort of confusion and arguments and recriminations of the sort you see in this thread here. The same would undoutbedly be true if, in the future, some person who hates hates hates pressed books today becomes the authority of a slabbing service and assigns them a color or some other "bad" designation. People who accept pressed books today will avoid them, not because they also hate the pressing, but because of the label.

 

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chrisco37

chrisco37

Posted
Posted
And for the record.

 

Stand across the table with a CGC book in your hand with label notes stating minor color touch and glue and try to convince a customer that it's a blue label "Universal". And we wonder why Dealers have lousy reputations?

 

How about this? At my sole discretion can I determine a book on my wall to be Universal with a tiny amount of color touch or glue. Of course not, I would be selling a restored book as Unrestored which it's not even if I noted it on the label.

 

(worship)

 

'Amount' should never come into the equation. A book either is...or it isn't restored.

 

And by 'restored', we shouldn't be taking into account the result of the procedures, rather what was done.

 

As Bob has quite rightly said, this was a 'work-around' which avoided the problem of labelling a good number of books from the best collection ever unearthed as 'restored'. Imagine how that would have got a number of 'founder dealers' squealing. :/

 

There's the answer.

 

 

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G.A.tor

G.A.tor

Posted
Posted
And for the record.

 

Stand across the table with a CGC book in your hand with label notes stating minor color touch and glue and try to convince a customer that it's a blue label "Universal". And we wonder why Dealers have lousy reputations?

 

How about this? At my sole discretion can I determine a book on my wall to be Universal with a tiny amount of color touch or glue. Of course not, I would be selling a restored book as Unrestored which it's not even if I noted it on the label.

 

(worship)

 

'Amount' should never come into the equation. A book either is...or it isn't restored.

 

And by 'restored', we shouldn't be taking into account the result of the procedures, rather what was done.

 

As Bob has quite rightly said, this was a 'work-around' which avoided the problem of labelling a good number of books from the best collection ever unearthed as 'restored'. Imagine how that would have got a number of 'founder dealers' squealing. :/

by technical definition, I completely agree...either something has been added to the book, or it hasn't...

however, it is not brain surgery...it is pretty easy to explain, if someone is interested in knowing, why a 6.5 can get into a blue holder, versus a purple holder...doesn't change the fact that the glue is there, and absolutely value comes into place... I find it hard to believe that any reasonable individual would think that by adding a drop of glue, a book that without it is "worth" $40k, but a book with it is worth $10K?...that is just naive and silly (IMO), so the blue label does indeed help to preseve the value (whether from a mile high collection or any other book)

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G.A.tor

G.A.tor

Posted
Posted
Using your quote " (not like one is trying to sell a "known" restored book as "unrestored"... ) this book should have be in a purple holder until somebody removes it.

 

 

not saying it shouldn't or that I wouldn't, but saying that within the current system, it isn't, and I understand why (thumbs u
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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted

As far as value preservation, I agree. It's ridiculous the prices that a book will command simply because it was hit with a marker or a touch of glue.

 

As a corporate decision, it's a tough call.

 

I think, personally, the better option would have been to not have a purple labe at all. I know that's going to be difficult to fathom for a lot of people but I believe the purple label has created a stigma all to itself that wouldn't exist if it wasn't there.

 

A blue label, with all the usual restoration designations that we are used to would have been just as effective at sending the message and more effective at preventing a stigma with restored books.

 

I agree with Bluechip...a restored book wasn't frowned upon in the past the way it is now.

 

To put a touch of glue or color on a book and then sell it for a fraction of the price of a completely untouched book is insane.

 

 

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JiveTurkeyMoFo

JiveTurkeyMoFo

Posted
Posted
And for the record.

 

Stand across the table with a CGC book in your hand with label notes stating minor color touch and glue and try to convince a customer that it's a blue label "Universal". And we wonder why Dealers have lousy reputations?

 

How about this? At my sole discretion can I determine a book on my wall to be Universal with a tiny amount of color touch or glue. Of course not, I would be selling a restored book as Unrestored which it's not even if I noted it on the label.

 

(worship)

 

'Amount' should never come into the equation. A book either is...or it isn't restored.

 

And by 'restored', we shouldn't be taking into account the result of the procedures, rather what was done.

 

As Bob has quite rightly said, this was a 'work-around' which avoided the problem of labelling a good number of books from the best collection ever unearthed as 'restored'. Imagine how that would have got a number of 'founder dealers' squealing. :/

by technical definition, I completely agree...either something has been added to the book, or it hasn't...

however, it is not brain surgery...it is pretty easy to explain, if someone is interested in knowing, why a 6.5 can get into a blue holder, versus a purple holder...doesn't change the fact that the glue is there, and absolutely value comes into place... I find it hard to believe that any reasonable individual would think that by adding a drop of glue, a book that without it is "worth" $40k, but a book with it is worth $10K?...that is just naive and silly (IMO), so the blue label does indeed help to preseve the value (whether from a mile high collection or any other book)

 

I think its important to note that GA collectors/dealers and SA/BA collector/dealers look at this situation VERY differently. If you deal primarily with stuff after 1961, were supply is more plentiful, its very black and white....if its war era books and before, its a very grey area...since supply is limited to perhaps a few dozen copies, many of which bear some degree of restoration already (and have had the resto for more years then not).

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G.A.tor

G.A.tor

Posted
Posted
Oh I understand it all right.

 

It's as clear as mud

:makepoint: you have to quote what you are referencing, I can't keep up lol but I really want to understand and appreciate everyone's perspective
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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted
And for the record.

 

Stand across the table with a CGC book in your hand with label notes stating minor color touch and glue and try to convince a customer that it's a blue label "Universal". And we wonder why Dealers have lousy reputations?

 

How about this? At my sole discretion can I determine a book on my wall to be Universal with a tiny amount of color touch or glue. Of course not, I would be selling a restored book as Unrestored which it's not even if I noted it on the label.

 

(worship)

 

'Amount' should never come into the equation. A book either is...or it isn't restored.

 

And by 'restored', we shouldn't be taking into account the result of the procedures, rather what was done.

 

As Bob has quite rightly said, this was a 'work-around' which avoided the problem of labelling a good number of books from the best collection ever unearthed as 'restored'. Imagine how that would have got a number of 'founder dealers' squealing. :/

by technical definition, I completely agree...either something has been added to the book, or it hasn't...

however, it is not brain surgery...it is pretty easy to explain, if someone is interested in knowing, why a 6.5 can get into a blue holder, versus a purple holder...doesn't change the fact that the glue is there, and absolutely value comes into place... I find it hard to believe that any reasonable individual would think that by adding a drop of glue, a book that without it is "worth" $40k, but a book with it is worth $10K?...that is just naive and silly (IMO), so the blue label does indeed help to preseve the value (whether from a mile high collection or any other book)

 

I agree with this whole-heartedly, Rick. The values of restored books, especially keys and hard-to-find items, is inordinately low.

 

However, I do have a problem with 'preserving the value'. CGC should not be here to 'preserve the value', but rather clearly and unambiguously state facts. The market then determines value.

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
I disagree - Restored books have always been harder to sell.

 

Blue label restored books are the same useless creation as the green label qualified holder. Bookends that should be used to protect the real blue label books.

 

 

No doubt they were harder to sell Bob, but did they always sell at 1/10 or 1/4 the price of an unrestored book? You'd know better than me as I wasn't a big seller in the 1980's or 1990's.

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chrisco37

chrisco37

Posted
Posted

THere's no doubt the purple label has a stigma (PLOD anyone?).

 

It's also why CGC tried to introduce the new labels years ago. I thought it was a great idea and Steve even brought the label prototypes to the B'more dinner.

 

Unfortunately, most people (that CGC spoke to) did not favor the change. So, the PLOD stuck around. They didn't like all the additional info required on the new Restored Blue Label.

 

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