1985-1989 Coin Market = 2000-2004 Comic Market?

[14 of spades]

specific art has soul to those who appreciate that specific art.

 

if u choose to liken comics to art, then fine, you can appreciate comics.

 

not everyone likens comics to art.

 

not all appreciate all art.

 

as J.C. said, art is in the eye of the beholder.

[delekkerste]

There is a big difference in coins and comics. Coins have no soul, they are just a lump of metal. If a "market" says my lump of metal is now worthless then it is worthless.

 

Oh, and comic do have a soul.

Or to be more precise the stories and art in the comics have a soul.

 

Literature has a soul too. That doesn't mean I can't buy a stack of old classics for 50 cents a piece on a Greenwich Village streetcorner.

 

Even if comics are "art", as you say, that doesn't mean that art prices can't crash either. The Artprice Global Index fell about 60% between 1990 and 1996. And those old paintings were one-of-a-kind items with more "soul" than any comic book could ever have, inspiring millions upon millions of people around the world. We're talking about objects with nearly universal appeal and great historical/cultural importance. Even today, the index only recently surprassed its previous high (though, again, I'm sure the index suffers from survivorship bias and that many pieces of artwork remain very depressed from 1990 peak levels) in US$ and GBP terms while it remains, 15 years later, still off its best levels in euro terms despite the unprecedented wealth that was created during that time period.

 

 

I buy my comics for reading and not investing.

What the heck can I do with a funny looking half penny piece if no one wants to buy it?

 

I'll wager that more people would find a funny looking half penny more interesting than Watchmen. Not saying I agree with that sentiment, but the fact of the matter is that comic books only appeal to a small segment of the population while money appeals to just about everybody.

[14 of spades]

gene wrote something a while back that I thought was the most level-headed comment this board has seen in a while. it's worth repeating:

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, just about everyone on the planet owns and/or has used a coin. Money is universally coveted; comics are not. Money is essential; comics are not. Almost all people will be interested in money the rest of their lives; relatively very few people in the world are interested in comics at any point in their lives.

 

it's important that we don't suffer from collector's myopia...

[the blob]

"Oh yeah, if you really did make a fortune in finance, why the would you be going to law school? everyone should know that 99 times out of 100 that's a big step down.

 

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I would say a 100 out of 100."

 

OK, 9999 times out of 10000. There's always the occasional Peter Angelos.

[14 of spades]

CW is a bunch of BS.

[tth2]

"Oh yeah, if you really did make a fortune in finance, why the would you be going to law school? everyone should know that 99 times out of 100 that's a big step down.

 

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I would say a 100 out of 100."

 

OK, 9999 times out of 10000. There's always the occasional Peter Angelos.

 

But remember, your scenario is someone who was financially successful already, in which case I would still make it 1000 out of 1000. Angelos wasn't a successful anything before he became a lawyer. He was just a schmuck with a small practice who was in the right place at the right time (I believe he did workmen's comp claims and had good union connections just at the time that asbestos reared its ugly head).

[whetteon]

There is a big difference in coins and comics. Coins have no soul, they are just a lump of metal. If a "market" says my lump of metal is now worthless then it is worthless.

 

Oh, and comic do have a soul.

Or to be more precise the stories and art in the comics have a soul.

 

Literature has a soul too. That doesn't mean I can't buy a stack of old classics for 50 cents a piece on a Greenwich Village streetcorner.

 

Even if comics are "art", as you say, that doesn't mean that art prices can't crash either. The Artprice Global Index fell about 60% between 1990 and 1996. And those old paintings were one-of-a-kind items with more "soul" than any comic book could ever have, inspiring millions upon millions of people around the world. We're talking about objects with nearly universal appeal and great historical/cultural importance. Even today, the index only recently surprassed its previous high (though, again, I'm sure the index suffers from survivorship bias and that many pieces of artwork remain very depressed from 1990 peak levels) in US$ and GBP terms while it remains, 15 years later, still off its best levels in euro terms despite the unprecedented wealth that was created during that time period.

 

 

I buy my comics for reading and not investing.

What the heck can I do with a funny looking half penny piece if no one wants to buy it?

 

I'll wager that more people would find a funny looking half penny more interesting than Watchmen. Not saying I agree with that sentiment, but the fact of the matter is that comic books only appeal to a small segment of the population while money appeals to just about everybody.

 

I thought the whole reason the art market "crashed" was because of the big scandal between art dealerships where they were basically fixing prices on the market. Last I heard a few of the dealers went to jail. Not sure if this would be an appropriate comparison unless various dealers in the comic industry all agree not to sell particular key books below a certain price. .

[joe_collector]

Not sure if this would be an appropriate comparison unless various dealers in the comic industry all agree not to sell particular key books below a certain price. .

 

[delekkerste]

I thought the whole reason the art market "crashed" was because of the big scandal between art dealerships where they were basically fixing prices on the market. Last I heard a few of the dealers went to jail. Not sure if this would be an appropriate comparison unless various dealers in the comic industry all agree not to sell particular key books below a certain price. .

 

That is just not factually correct. The market crashed because prices soared to prices that were simply not sustainable, end of story. The biggest culprits were the Japanese, who thought their outsized income, stock and real estate gains would continue growing to the sky (pretty much the standard mode of thinking among high-end comic book collectors and dealers today). Instead, they found themselves on the brink of a deflation that is still ongoing some 15 years later and which cratered asset prices and crippled the banking system. The Japanese were among those selling out at the bottom of the market, often at losses of 60% or more.

 

The Sotheby's and Christie's price fixing scandal (which resulted in former Sotheby's chairman Alfred Taubman going to jail) you are referring to occurred well after the crash (beginning in 2000) and did not affect the market much one way or another.

[Aman619]

wasnt there a bit more to the Japanese Art buying that fueled the prices paid? Something about them being involved with or paid for with real estate funds? And tying in with the fixed pricing for land in Japan which has still not fallen? I remember reading about this in conjunction with the sale of Van Goghs Irises for 100 million....

 

and, isnt it fair to say that had Japans economy not collapsed, art prices may have continued to soar? Theres also a big difference between the top item selling for 100 MILLION DOLLARS... and one that sells for $250,000, as we have in comics, not that you were comparing art to comics markets...

[delekkerste]

wasnt there a bit more to the Japanese Art buying that fueled the prices paid? Something about them being involved with or paid for with real estate funds? And tying in with the fixed pricing for land in Japan which has still not fallen? I remember reading about this in conjunction with the sale of Van Goghs Irises for 100 million....

 

Not sure exactly what you are referring to, but Japanese corporations and individuals were both big beneficiaries of real estate profits, some of which were deployed into the art market. Not sure what you are referring to about "fixed pricing for land" either, as Japanese real estate has been slumping for most of the past decade and a half.

 

 

and, isnt it fair to say that had Japans economy not collapsed, art prices may have continued to soar? Theres also a big difference between the top item selling for 100 MILLION DOLLARS... and one that sells for $250,000, as we have in comics, not that you were comparing art to comics markets...

 

Sure - prices would have continued to soar for a while, more people would have jumped on the wagon at those unsustainably high levels and the ensuing crash would have been even bigger than we witnessed!

[the blob]

the art market crash also coincided with our Bush I recession, so no, I don't think they would have continued to soar.

 

part of this may have been the japanese, with a huge trade deficit with the u.s., had a lot of dollars they needed to spend on something, because they don't want our cars. so they bought inflated real estate and art. they unloaded much of the real esate at horrific losses (had they held on, they would have realized profits eventually).

[comicworm]

My fellow collectors, if I wanted to mislead you I would of posted under a shill! Any insufficiently_thoughtful_person can do that. Keep in mind I also extended my offer to meet with anyone who wants to meet me and see who I am (ironically, instead of learn the truth-most people on these boards would rather "bash" me. I own two houses in the suburbs of Philadelphia PA and I have nothing to hide, as I am also active in the communities of Blue Bell and King of Prussia!

 

Yes, after my accident I had to tone some things down a bit. I do attend Villanova for law (part time-my company foots the bill) and I do currently walk with a cane as I recover from my injuries. Again, instead of bashing me if you would take the time to get your facts straight, you would learn a lot.

 

I must try to explain this one point a little better. If you buy a house that is worth $340,000 for $200,000, then sell it for $250,000, guess what, you only made $50,000. The $340,000 figure does not even come into play because it is PERCEIVED value-not a gain or a loss, simply a dollar amount that never existed in true form. Understand now? Money does not evaporate! I cannot wait to go into the office and show that statement to my like minded advisors and the like....

 

its laughable.....

 

Now seeing that no one on these boards has an open mind, as long as you quit bashing me in this post, I will leave it alone and allow this post to die. So far we covered everything but the topic at hand (i.e. Nasdaq, politics, Clinton, Bush, and the like-and that is partly my fault). Okay? If you want to know anything about me, all you have to do is PM me. I usually do "lurk" here when I am not posting, however once I sell off my large CGC graded comic collection (see other posts for more detail) I am out of this hobby(and these boards) for good! Most of my fellow collectors have left such a bad taste in mouth that I don't want anything to do with comics and my fellow collectors ever again! Also, just look at eBay and the like. The CGC graded market is falling fast!

 

Cheers!

[awe4one]

Cal...

 

Jim

[the blob]

"Money does not evaporate!"

 

Fine, but "value" and "wealth" do. "money" is merely a means to buying this stuff and a measure for valuing that stuff, on oil well isn't made out of money, but it is worth something. A value isn't merely perceived if that's what you could sell it for then and there.

 

Anyway, something funny must have happened in 1929 when all those people lost their shirts, didn't it? Did all that wealth simply get transferred to the robber barrons of the day?

 

Why you think law would be any less hectic is beyond me unless your job is willing to give you some boring 9 - 5 compliance job where you'd be making 1/6th of what you should be making now if you do what you say you do.

[Norrin_Radd]

 

 

 

 

 

Don't go away mad. It's been an interesting discussion.

[Aman619]

the art market crash also coincided with our Bush I recession, so no, I don't think they would have continued to soar.

 

part of this may have been the japanese, with a huge trade deficit with the u.s., had a lot of dollars they needed to spend on something, because they don't want our cars. so they bought inflated real estate and art. they unloaded much of the real esate at horrific losses (had they held on, they would have realized profits eventually).

 

thats sounds like what I was referring to... The Van Gogh (I seem to remember) was included in a real estate deal and the value was affected by th eoverall deal involved....

[Aman619]

however once I sell off my large CGC graded comic collection (see other posts for more detail) I am out of this hobby(and these boards) for good! Most of my fellow collectors have left such a bad taste in mouth that I don't want anything to do with comics and my fellow collectors ever again! Also, just look at eBay and the like. The CGC graded market is falling fast!

 

Cheers!

 

geee. Im gonna rush right now and send you a PM to 'chat' after this nice sendoff.

[Aman619]

 

 

 

 

 

Don't go away mad. It's been an interesting discussion.

[14 of spades]

I do attend Villanova for law (part time-my company foots the bill)

 

Again, instead of bashing me if you would take the time to get your facts straight,

 

i've taken the time to read your posts.

 

you posted earlier that you are selling your CGC comics to pay your way through law school. now you say law school is already paid for.

 

perhaps it's YOU that has to get your facts straight...