Comics You personally can't Understand Cost So Much

[Prince Namor]

Someone asked about Grant Morrison's Animal Man.

Great work. Wasn't a DC fan. Didn't know Animal Man from Ambush Bug.

But those Bolland covers lured me in and to this day it's still one of my favorite runs.

 

Animal Man: Listen, Where I come from we expect REAL stories. I'm getting sick of these pseudo-existential narratives!

[COI]

Spoiler - long, effusive post ahead. Read at your peril!

 

 

Listen...I never read comics as a kid. Don't know why, but I didn't. The only comic I ever remember reading is Rom #47.

 

I didn't seriously get into comics until my 18th year. And I'm a fairly smart, fairly well educated guy. I do not have the emotional attachment to comics that a lot of fans do, because I wasn't 9 or 10 or 11 when I read them.

 

I am like that with movies. I saw Poseidon Adventure when I was 8 on some Saturday afternoon matinee thing on TV, and LOVED it. Thought it was the greatest movie ever made. And I was, and remain, a HUGE fan of action suspense films.

 

So, when I saw it on VHS at Costco around 1994, I bought it. Then I watched it.

It was awful. Just hideous.

 

And that sullied the memory for me, in a way. I don't do that anymore.

 

So I can understand how things may not hold up. I enjoyed Dark Phoenix, but it wasn't the earth shattering experience that most folks who read it as a kid thought. The dialogue is stunted and hideous, and painful to read. The PLOTTING is EXCELLENT, and the plot elements were fantastic...but as a work of literature, it falls very short.

 

Born Again has no such issues. I read it the first time when I was 19-20 or so. I have read it a couple of times since then. It has none of the issues that Claremont suffered dramatically from, and even Byrne to an extent.

 

It.

 

Is.

 

Perfection.

 

If you haven't read it...go ahead, do yourself a favor, and pick up the issues. They are CRIMINALLY cheap for what they are.

 

I completely agree. I have nothing to add other than I blame DD 228 being one of my earliest comics for my inability to read most vintage stuff.

 

Think how I feel.

 

As an adult, the very first comics I read were:

 

Born Again

Killing Joke

Animal Man (Grant Morrison)

Miracleman

Swamp Thing (Alan Moore)

Giffen and DeMatteis' Justice League

Batman Year One

Dark Knight Returns

Watchmen

Sandman

 

These were MY FIRST EXPOSURE TO COMICS.

 

I mean, really, what chance did the older stuff have...?

 

I haven't read the ones in bold. I should get on that. I assume you're talking Vertigo Sandman?

 

really? Those are what comic should be.

 

Although, I've never read Animal Man. Anyone care to explain what is the premise?

 

I haven't read many comics. I haven't owned many comics. I don't know why I'm here.

 

Oh please.

 

You may not have owned many comics, but the ones you HAVE owned are trés magnifique!

 

MWAH!

 

My current favorite pass-time is video games, and I own many of those. The problem is, those message boards are so retarded they make this place feel like a TED conference.

 

Are you in utter anticipation for the release of Arkham city?

 

Absolutely, among a dozen other games I've already bought, or will be buying in the next few months. I'll never finish them all, but Arkham City will get special attention.

[500Club]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

 

It's really hard for people who weren't there...or who don't have access to the record...to really appreciate how huge a star John Byrne was in the early 80's. The guy was a legitimate superstar, and conventions FOUGHT to have him as a guest. People would line up for hours and hours to get something signed by him. He was the headliner guest at almost any con he went to for a period of about 4-5 YEARS.

 

Byrne may seem like an overrated egomaniac, but really, he really did earn it. He was much, much bigger in his day than McFarlane, Lee, or anyone else could hope to be. The only artist to draw a bigger response than John Byrne, in the entire history of comics, was Neal Adams. And most of that was AFTER Neal Adams quit mainstream comics.

 

Byrne got it at the absolute height of his career.

 

I truly don't think it's possible to overstate how big John Byrne was when John Byrne was big.

[Legion HQ]

What are comics that you personally can't understand why they cost so much.

 

I know I'll get flack for this, but I personally can't see why Adventure Comics #247 is so expensive. I know it's the first Legion, but that book goes for stupid money.

 

 

 

My number one holiest of holy grails. I wish it weren't so expensive so I could have one.

 

Honestly, if given the choice, I'd rather have a copy of this in my collection than a copy of AC1.

To me, there is no issue of any comic that is even in the same league of importance as Adventure 247.

 

 

+1

 

Barring some unforeseen financial disaster, I will have a copy of this book within the next year or two. What grade I will buy, that is the only question. Legion got me started on this hobby in the early 80s with those little digest books. The first stories that truly fired up the imagination of this Georgia kid.

 

Last year's SDCC, I bought the actual original issues to my favorite digest, and they are treasure to me. I'd never seen those stories full-size before. Compared to my little reprint digest, these felt downright museum-like. Needless to say, I'm hooked on the hobby's history now.

 

This year's SDCC, I bought pedigree copies of the 1st Karate Kid appearance and the 1st Fatal Five appearance, as well as the Death of Ferro Lad. As strange as it seems, it never really occurred to me until last year that I could honestly own these books that housed these key moments in Legion history. They just seemed so...mythical. So out of reach from an era before me. And yet, here I am now, dipping my hands back in time with each new purchase.

 

Sorry, getting off topic as I ramble dreamily. No, price becomes secondary. Whatever I end up paying for AC247 will be happily handed over.

[Logan510]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

 

How could I forget...I only lived through it as a fan and a reader...

[Logan510]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

 

It's really hard for people who weren't there...or who don't have access to the record...to really appreciate how huge a star John Byrne was in the early 80's. The guy was a legitimate superstar, and conventions FOUGHT to have him as a guest. People would line up for hours and hours to get something signed by him. He was the headliner guest at almost any con he went to for a period of about 4-5 YEARS.

 

Byrne may seem like an overrated egomaniac, but really, he really did earn it. He was much, much bigger in his day than McFarlane, Lee, or anyone else could hope to be. The only artist to draw a bigger response than John Byrne, in the entire history of comics, was Neal Adams. And most of that was AFTER Neal Adams quit mainstream comics.

 

Byrne got it at the absolute height of his career.

 

I truly don't think it's possible to overstate how big John Byrne was when John Byrne was big.

 

Time goes by so fast. It's hard to believe that it's been over 20 years since JB was a "star".

[Prince Namor]

Byrne WAS huge and it does probably seem strange to people who weren't around for it.

 

And he was a superstar for all of the right reasons; he wasn't afraid to take chances these characters who had gotten stagnant, solid craftsmanship, solid storytelling skills, work horse ethic....

 

But unlike Miller, JB never really had a masterpiece and never really could make a success out of a non-Marvel or DC book. Sin City became a movie, Next Men... well, some of us liked it. And Danger Unlimited was fun. And Babe was fun. None of it classic though.

 

It's too bad. He was an important part of an important era.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

 

It's really hard for people who weren't there...or who don't have access to the record...to really appreciate how huge a star John Byrne was in the early 80's. The guy was a legitimate superstar, and conventions FOUGHT to have him as a guest. People would line up for hours and hours to get something signed by him. He was the headliner guest at almost any con he went to for a period of about 4-5 YEARS.

 

Byrne may seem like an overrated egomaniac, but really, he really did earn it. He was much, much bigger in his day than McFarlane, Lee, or anyone else could hope to be. The only artist to draw a bigger response than John Byrne, in the entire history of comics, was Neal Adams. And most of that was AFTER Neal Adams quit mainstream comics.

 

Byrne got it at the absolute height of his career.

 

I truly don't think it's possible to overstate how big John Byrne was when John Byrne was big.

 

Time goes by so fast. It's hard to believe that it's been over 20 years since JB was a "star".

 

As the guy who has nothing but Byrne books in his sigline, does this jive with your experience?

 

Obviously, I was just a little kid during all of this, and only know this after the fact by reading the printed publications of the day, but it's hard to miss. As noted, he was broken out for almost everything he did, and many of his books were $2-$3 at a time when surrounding issues were 60 cents or somesuch.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Byrne WAS huge and it does probably seem strange to people who weren't around for it.

 

And he was a superstar for all of the right reasons; he wasn't afraid to take chances these characters who had gotten stagnant, solid craftsmanship, solid storytelling skills, work horse ethic....

 

But unlike Miller, JB never really had a masterpiece .

 

Sure he did.

 

Dark Phoenix IS a masterpiece, as badly dialogued as it is.

 

And Man of Steel comes pretty damn close.

[Logan510]

Byrne WAS huge and it does probably seem strange to people who weren't around for it.

 

And he was a superstar for all of the right reasons; he wasn't afraid to take chances these characters who had gotten stagnant, solid craftsmanship, solid storytelling skills, work horse ethic....

 

But unlike Miller, JB never really had a masterpiece and never really could make a success out of a non-Marvel or DC book. Sin City became a movie, Next Men... well, some of us liked it. And Danger Unlimited was fun. And Babe was fun. None of it classic though.

 

It's too bad. He was an important part of an important era.

 

A masterpiece in what sense? JB has several under his belt....on par with DKR? Not in terms of media exposure certainly.

[Logan510]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

 

It's really hard for people who weren't there...or who don't have access to the record...to really appreciate how huge a star John Byrne was in the early 80's. The guy was a legitimate superstar, and conventions FOUGHT to have him as a guest. People would line up for hours and hours to get something signed by him. He was the headliner guest at almost any con he went to for a period of about 4-5 YEARS.

 

Byrne may seem like an overrated egomaniac, but really, he really did earn it. He was much, much bigger in his day than McFarlane, Lee, or anyone else could hope to be. The only artist to draw a bigger response than John Byrne, in the entire history of comics, was Neal Adams. And most of that was AFTER Neal Adams quit mainstream comics.

 

Byrne got it at the absolute height of his career.

 

I truly don't think it's possible to overstate how big John Byrne was when John Byrne was big.

 

Time goes by so fast. It's hard to believe that it's been over 20 years since JB was a "star".

 

As the guy who has nothing but Byrne books in his sigline, does this jive with your experience?

 

Obviously, I was just a little kid during all of this, and only know this after the fact by reading the printed publications of the day, but it's hard to miss. As noted, he was broken out for almost everything he did, and many of his books were $2-$3 at a time when surrounding issues were 60 cents or somesuch.

 

 

All you really have to do is look at how many fan awards he won during this period and look at how sales jumped when he went on a book. Alpha Flight was a huge deal when he started it...going to DC to do Superman was THE industry news..( especially because of the drama surrounding it ). He was pretty much the MAN...with Perez and Miller right next to him.

[Prince Namor]

Byrne WAS huge and it does probably seem strange to people who weren't around for it.

 

And he was a superstar for all of the right reasons; he wasn't afraid to take chances these characters who had gotten stagnant, solid craftsmanship, solid storytelling skills, work horse ethic....

 

But unlike Miller, JB never really had a masterpiece .

 

Sure he did.

 

Dark Phoenix IS a masterpiece, as badly dialogued as it is.

 

And Man of Steel comes pretty damn close.

 

But Dark Phoenix is a shared writing credit and Man of Steel is really, really good, but it's not the Dark Knight Returns. Or remembered in even close to the same way.

I'm in no way trying to say he wasn't great. I'm a huge fan of his work. I bought his FF monthly and even enjoyed his She Hulk, Dark Horse stuff, and currently buying the new Next Men series.

But as a sole writer and artist he doesn't have that monster hit or a huge success outside of the mainstream Big Two company characters.

And I think it's why he isn't remembered as well as he should be.

 

[Logan510]

Byrne WAS huge and it does probably seem strange to people who weren't around for it.

 

And he was a superstar for all of the right reasons; he wasn't afraid to take chances these characters who had gotten stagnant, solid craftsmanship, solid storytelling skills, work horse ethic....

 

But unlike Miller, JB never really had a masterpiece .

 

Sure he did.

 

Dark Phoenix IS a masterpiece, as badly dialogued as it is.

 

And Man of Steel comes pretty damn close.

 

But Dark Phoenix is a shared writing credit and Man of Steel is really, really good, but it's not the Dark Knight Returns. Or remembered in even close to the same way.

I'm in no way trying to say he wasn't great. I'm a huge fan of his work. I bought his FF monthly and even enjoyed his She Hulk, Dark Horse stuff, and currently buying the new Next Men series.

But as a sole writer and artist he doesn't have that monster hit or a huge success outside of the mainstream Big Two company characters.

And I think it's why he isn't remembered as well as he should be.

 

JB claims that Next Men broke the record for highest selling indi at the time....until the Image stuff came out. JB has also said that he made the most money in his career doing Next Men...so in terms of financial success and I'm fairly sure critical success I would say it was a big hit for him. He's also been approached several times to have a Next Men film made...but unfortunately he hasn't had Robert Rodriguez knocking on his door.

[Prince Namor]

JB claims that Next Men broke the record for highest selling indi at the time....until the Image stuff came out. JB has also said that he made the most money in his career doing Next Men...so in terms of financial success and I'm fairly sure critical success I would say it was a big hit for him. He's also been approached several times to have a Next Men film made...but unfortunately he hasn't had Robert Rodriguez knocking on his door.

 

I'd love to see a Next Men movie.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Byrne WAS huge and it does probably seem strange to people who weren't around for it.

 

And he was a superstar for all of the right reasons; he wasn't afraid to take chances these characters who had gotten stagnant, solid craftsmanship, solid storytelling skills, work horse ethic....

 

But unlike Miller, JB never really had a masterpiece .

 

Sure he did.

 

Dark Phoenix IS a masterpiece, as badly dialogued as it is.

 

And Man of Steel comes pretty damn close.

 

But Dark Phoenix is a shared writing credit and Man of Steel is really, really good, but it's not the Dark Knight Returns. Or remembered in even close to the same way.

I'm in no way trying to say he wasn't great. I'm a huge fan of his work. I bought his FF monthly and even enjoyed his She Hulk, Dark Horse stuff, and currently buying the new Next Men series.

But as a sole writer and artist he doesn't have that monster hit or a huge success outside of the mainstream Big Two company characters.

And I think it's why he isn't remembered as well as he should be.

 

To be fair, one needn't have written a comic for it to be that creator's masterpiece. I'm almost positive Neal Adams wrote nothing from 1967-1974, yet he can still count GL as his opus magnus. And Alan Moore certainly never drew anything, and neither did Neil Gaiman (well, mostly) or Grant Morrison...yet Swamp Thing, MM, Watchmen, Sandman, and Animal Man are hailed as the finest the artform produced, alongside Dark Knight Returns, Born Again, Year One and the like. Miller, after all, didn't even draw Born Again or Year One.

 

If we're talking about writer-artists, Miller is in a league solely by himself, untouchable by anyone. But as a writer OR an artist, Byrne comes fairly close to Dark Knight with Dark Phoenix.

 

Plotwise (Byrne's major contribution), Dark Phoenix is a masterpiece. It's only the hammy, atrocious diaologue by Claremont that hamstrings it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And I think it's why he isn't remembered as well as he should be.

 

By the way, neither is Miller.

 

After the disaster that was Dark Knight Strikes Back ( vomit ), what has Miller really done? All Star Batman and Robin? Martha Washington Dies?

 

:shrug:

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

 

It's really hard for people who weren't there...or who don't have access to the record...to really appreciate how huge a star John Byrne was in the early 80's. The guy was a legitimate superstar, and conventions FOUGHT to have him as a guest. People would line up for hours and hours to get something signed by him. He was the headliner guest at almost any con he went to for a period of about 4-5 YEARS.

 

Byrne may seem like an overrated egomaniac, but really, he really did earn it. He was much, much bigger in his day than McFarlane, Lee, or anyone else could hope to be. The only artist to draw a bigger response than John Byrne, in the entire history of comics, was Neal Adams. And most of that was AFTER Neal Adams quit mainstream comics.

 

Byrne got it at the absolute height of his career.

 

I truly don't think it's possible to overstate how big John Byrne was when John Byrne was big.

 

Time goes by so fast. It's hard to believe that it's been over 20 years since JB was a "star".

 

As the guy who has nothing but Byrne books in his sigline, does this jive with your experience?

 

Obviously, I was just a little kid during all of this, and only know this after the fact by reading the printed publications of the day, but it's hard to miss. As noted, he was broken out for almost everything he did, and many of his books were $2-$3 at a time when surrounding issues were 60 cents or somesuch.

 

 

All you really have to do is look at how many fan awards he won during this period and look at how sales jumped when he went on a book. Alpha Flight was a huge deal when he started it...going to DC to do Superman was THE industry news..( especially because of the drama surrounding it ). He was pretty much the MAN...with Perez and Miller right next to him.

 

Besides...you're not THAT much older than me...

[Kramerica]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

 

Oh man! The Byrne Avengers runs! #164-166 and #181-191! Those were the Bee's Knee's. And FF #258-260 I think it was? With Silver Surfer, Terrax, Dr. Doom.I love that story. The Claremont & Byrne run on MTU at the same time they were doing Uncanny? Some of those books are awesome. I think it was MTU #69 & 70? With Spidey, Thor and the Living Monolith? I could keep going on.

[Logan510]

Oh, and nobody really cares that DD #168 is Frank Miller's first writing.

 

They really don't.

 

The book is valuable because it introduces Elektra, who was about the most kickass female character introduction in the entire Marvel U up to that point.

 

Where Frank Miller's writing starts to matter is Ronin, then DD #227-233, then Dark Knight. Then Year One. Then Sin City. Then 300.

 

And that's about it.

 

They might not care now ( though I doubt that ), but at the time it came out it was a big deal.

 

See, when I read the fan and professional literature of the time, I just don't see any reference to "Miller's writing!" being any reason to pick the books up. Sure, by the time #168 had come out, #158 had been out for over a year and a half, and people were really digging the art...but there's nothing I see about people reacting to his writing until Ronin. DD #181 was a big deal, but that was because Elektra had proved to be so very, very popular, and back then, death was still a big deal (having just killed off Phoenix not a year earlier.)

 

Remember, it wasn't until Alan Moore and Swamp Thing that anything was broken out because of the writer. Sure, artist, absolutely, starting with Neal Adams. But for writing, it would take the mid 80's for that to happen, long after Miller's first stint.

 

 

I was reading them a they came out. I can say from first hand experience that there was definitely a big buzz going on about his writing ( as well as his art ). He's probably the first guy in the modern age to get such a buzz being a writer / artist as well.

 

 

Byrne was on FF 6 months later...there was not a bigger buzz about anyone at the time than Byrne being on FF. Byrne was THE hottest thing since sliced bread in 1981, and the publications of the time are all unanimous in their shouting of this fact. In fact, Byrne being on FF was a much, much bigger deal in its day than McFarlane being on Spidey (and THAT was huge, too.)

 

Miller hadn't written anything up to that point, and DD continued to be a b-monthly book until 171, the same month FF #232 came out, so it's not as if he had a great body of work with which to compare (having written all of 3 comics prior to this.)

 

If there was a buzz about Miller, it certainly wasn't until later in the run, say around #176-177 or so, probably culminating with #181, which was a monster hit for the title. But there really just isn't anything in the record about Miller's writing being the key selling point.

 

I'm trying to recall the zeitgeist at the time. From what I recall, Swamp Thing 20 and 21 were the first books to really get noticed due to the writing alone. Writer/artists like Byrne and Miller were popular due to the art moreso than the writing.

 

Byrne was huge as you note; books with Byrne fill-ins like ASM 189, 190, and 206 were broken out in guide.

 

It's really hard for people who weren't there...or who don't have access to the record...to really appreciate how huge a star John Byrne was in the early 80's. The guy was a legitimate superstar, and conventions FOUGHT to have him as a guest. People would line up for hours and hours to get something signed by him. He was the headliner guest at almost any con he went to for a period of about 4-5 YEARS.

 

Byrne may seem like an overrated egomaniac, but really, he really did earn it. He was much, much bigger in his day than McFarlane, Lee, or anyone else could hope to be. The only artist to draw a bigger response than John Byrne, in the entire history of comics, was Neal Adams. And most of that was AFTER Neal Adams quit mainstream comics.

 

Byrne got it at the absolute height of his career.

 

I truly don't think it's possible to overstate how big John Byrne was when John Byrne was big.

 

Time goes by so fast. It's hard to believe that it's been over 20 years since JB was a "star".

 

As the guy who has nothing but Byrne books in his sigline, does this jive with your experience?

 

Obviously, I was just a little kid during all of this, and only know this after the fact by reading the printed publications of the day, but it's hard to miss. As noted, he was broken out for almost everything he did, and many of his books were $2-$3 at a time when surrounding issues were 60 cents or somesuch.

 

 

All you really have to do is look at how many fan awards he won during this period and look at how sales jumped when he went on a book. Alpha Flight was a huge deal when he started it...going to DC to do Superman was THE industry news..( especially because of the drama surrounding it ). He was pretty much the MAN...with Perez and Miller right next to him.

 

Besides...you're not THAT much older than me...

 

This is true, but I started reading comics much earlier than you did