Wizard First Program - Not April's Fools

[valiantman]

I've been thinking about the "Wizard First" program since I read about it a month ago...

and I was NOT happy with the idea after giving it two seconds of thought.

 

But... since it IS going to happen... here are some easier pills to swallow...

 

1) It doesn't affect any book from the beginning of time to last year.

PLEASE let that sink in. There is not a single key, non-key, or bargain bin book

that will be affected by this program... NONE.

 

2) It's a different label. It will be distinguishable from the "real" CGC labels.

 

3) It's automatically recognizable BECAUSE of the 9.5 grade.

When you see CGC 9.5... there will be NO confusion. It's Wizard 9.5... simple.

 

4) Whether you know it or not... the "Overstreet" of sportscards is called Beckett.

Beckett is BOTH price guide(s) and grader. Both.

Beckett has "REAL" grades (BGS), and "Quickie Inspection" grades (BCCG).

http://www.beckett.com/grading/pricing.asp

It's possible to get a "quickie" BCCG 10 that would only be a "real" BGS 9.0.

 

The market has learned to tell the difference, and Beckett has succeeded

even though there are MANY problems with this scenario...

 

Beckett IS the price guide AND the grader. (Conflict of interest?!?)

Beckett will "quickie grade" (BCCG) ANY card... it doesn't have to be straight

from the factory brand new cards... you can get a "quickie 10" on a vintage card.

Beckett uses the same numbering system for both types of submissions,

even though the grades are not guaranteed to transfer between BGS and BCCG.

 

CGC is NOT the price guide...

CGC will NOT "quickie grade" (Wizard First) ANY backissue comics...

CGC does NOT use 100% of the same numbering system on both types of slabs,

the majority of books will be 9.5 (Wizard-only) or 9.0 (who cares, a 9.0 is a 9.0).

Wizard CGC 10 will be an area of interest, but AGAIN, it will only be on brand new

books.

If they are as common as 9.8s, they will NOT sustain their prices on the market.

 

In other words... if Beckett succeeded with MAJOR flaws in their system,

we should feel better that CGC addressed the flaws of other collectible systems,

because they didn't have to.

 

What's left to be upset about?

Someone, somewhere will be confused that the Wizard 10 slab they just bought

for a brand new, straight-from-the-factory comic book is not necessarily

a CGC 10.0 on the classic scale, but in fact, could be a CGC 9.8 if they

re-submitted it? Well, boo hoo... there are bigger tragedies in the world.

 

[ArAich]

It's all beginning to make sense now....Greggy's books really aren't that nice...it's just that he has, in conjunction with CGC, implimented his own grading system...

[drbanner]

What's left to be upset about?

Someone, somewhere will be confused that the Wizard 10 slab they just bought

for a brand new, straight-from-the-factory comic book is not necessarily

a CGC 10.0 on the classic scale, but in fact, could be a CGC 9.8 if they

re-submitted it? Well, boo hoo... there are bigger tragedies in the world.

 

 

Poor Darth...he's the only board member that's going to be affected!!

[sborock]

"I'll keep submitting books to CGC, because I still have books to sell, and there are no viable alternatives (though, after this rant, the grades may not be as good). When those books are gone, I'm done. Over and out. Can't believe a company that is so far behind on it's service would announce a program like this (Yes, I read what Steve said about turnaround times - I just don't believe it). "

 

I don't take offense very often here, but two parts of your statement really bugs me

 

Everybody is allowed to speak their minds here and IT DOES NOT AFFECT HOW WE GRADE BOOKS. You are implying that I know they are your books and that I am a vindictive person. This is not true.

 

Also, about the turn times statement, believe what you like, but I have NEVER lied to the board members here. I have ALWAYS been straight with all of you, Please do not call me a liar

[Ze-man]

[quoteI don't take offense very often here, but two parts of your statement really bugs me

 

Everybody is allowed to speak their minds here and IT DOES NOT AFFECT HOW WE GRADE BOOKS. You are implying that I know they are your books and that I am a vindictive person. This is not true.

 

 

I can personally vouch for Steve on this one.

When I sent in my 3 Express books to be graded after membership awhile ago...

I had written Steve a PM about an off topic matter reguarding Mylars and if there were sent back after submission.

 

In that PM I stated I was excited about my 3 books being graded, and stated which ones they were, a JIM annual, a ASM #17, and a Secret Origins #1.And if he had seen them.

 

He wrote me back and said next time to not divulge what my books are to him, as once he knows whose they are, or knows of them, he has to take himself off the "grader list" for those books.

I was kinda sad to think my books would not pass through his hands

 

This was over 5 months ago, and he did this out of sincerity to me and my comics.

as he said he did not want anyone ever to think there was impartial , or preferential treatment.

Does this mean it has never happened?

I dunno.

But I can say in my case, he went out of his way to make sure CGC was a true impartial 3rd party grader.

Thanks for that Steve.

 

Zeman

[Marvelous]

After that last post I am feeling a lot of love in this thread. Time for a group hug.

[shadroch]

To paraphrase Winston Churchill-Now that we've established what you are,all thats left is to determine the price.

 

How many books do I need to send in order for you to use my grading system. Too many numbers are confusing so I'll elect to go with only two grades,perfect and once perfect. And while we are changing the label so no one will confuse it with a real CGC,maybe we can darken the plastic so light doesn't pass thru as easily.

Will you slab books for Chuckie using his grading scale? Can stckwizard buy into your new "pay enuff,we'll use your grading scales" policy.

The first of these books I see at a show will signal the end of any further use I have for your grading service.

I suspect the backlash may be more than you seem to anticipate.

[Ares]

Nice Sig line Steve

[BassGMan]

"I'll keep submitting books to CGC, because I still have books to sell, and there are no viable alternatives (though, after this rant, the grades may not be as good). When those books are gone, I'm done. Over and out. Can't believe a company that is so far behind on it's service would announce a program like this (Yes, I read what Steve said about turnaround times - I just don't believe it). "

 

I don't take offense very often here, but two parts of your statement really bugs me

 

Everybody is allowed to speak their minds here and IT DOES NOT AFFECT HOW WE GRADE BOOKS. You are implying that I know they are your books and that I am a vindictive person. This is not true.

 

Also, about the turn times statement, believe what you like, but I have NEVER lied to the board members here. I have ALWAYS been straight with all of you, Please do not call me a liar

 

Hey Steve, I hear ya' on that one. The false accusations you are hearing are stated by people who are angry, upset or offended. Happens all the time, with many different subjects, with each other, and is usually unfair. However, these unfair comments will unfortunately continue to pour in when people see something like this that they don't like. I can understand and somewhat agree with your Quesada quote, but just remember that us board members are among the most loyal of your clientele, and as a whole most likely represent a large portion of your business. The unfair accusations should certainly cease, but the problem still exists and is going to make alot of people angry at CGC and question your business practices. I don't think that can be avoided. CGG has suffered similar injustices recently. Now, unfortunately it is your turn to be put under the micsoscope and picked apart on this idea. -----Sid

[Marvelous]

There is only only a couple of questions that need answered IMHO.

 

1) Does a "Wizard First" CGC 10.0 = Regular CGC 10.0?

 

2) Are Wizard First comics going to be included with the regular graded comics in the census?

 

If the answer is NO to both of those questions then they can "Wizard First" slab as many new comics as they want and it doesn't effect the people that collect regularly slabbed books. It will just an interesting marketing tool for Wizard and CGC to make some bucks on new comics that doesn't effect the rest of us.

 

However, it the answer is YES to both of those questions then it might spell doom for CGC because their loyal customers might revolt and stop using their services. JC might actually get the crash he has been predicting, at least with regards to the slabbed book market.

[sborock]

1: Yes

 

2: No

[awe4one]

Another question that's bugging me.....

 

Why the hell didn't someone from CGC come on here and debunk the whole "it was an April's Fools joke" thread? They obviously knew the info was correct but instead let everyone believe it was a joke? They've always been quick to correct speculation in the past.....

 

Very, very uncool.....

 

Jim

[Marvelous]

1: Yes

 

2: No

 

Well, that just threw a wrench into the works. This whole deal is getting too weird for me. It doesn't matter to me anyhow. I don't buy new modern slabbed books. However, I think it will effect the dealers and buyers of new modern slabbed books a hell of a lot. Good luck and slab away.

[rob_react]

I suspect the backlash may be more than you seem to anticipate.

 

Here's my addition to the backlash.

 

I WAS going to write about my favorite SA keys today (as I mentioned recently) but this garbage put me in a slightly different mode.

[Marvelous]

Another question that's bugging me.....

 

Why the hell didn't someone from CGC come on here and debunk the whole "it was an April's Fools joke" thread? They obviously knew the info was correct but instead let everyone believe it was a joke? They've always been quick to correct speculation in the past.....

 

Very, very uncool.....

 

Jim

 

I didn't think it was a joke.

[Foolkiller]

Maybe they didn't see the thread... who knows?

 

I think accusing Steve of lying, conspiracy theories, blah, blah, blah is all a mistake because I don't perceive as it as being illegal or dishonest. It is driven by generating a) more money for CGC, and there's nothing wrong with this so long as it is not at a cost to integrity and b) more publicity for CGC and a built in outlet to advertise partially through Wizard for basically free.

 

Valiantman points out that the slabs will be easily recognizable... I agree (on the 9.5 grade) as Wizard's own grading system. Unfortunately, there will be far too many people who will assume this is the Wizard system using CGC standards. It shouldn't be confusing, but I can guarantee it will be. This is also a problem from the perception standpoint. It will further add fuel to the distrust in CGC showing favoritism to a certain group. What it begs, as others have asked, is the question of how much money it takes to get your grading system implemented and then applied by CGC. This sort of thing gives rise towards the questioning of CGC's integrity as a company.

 

Why I am so adamant about this being short sighted is that one day there will be legitimate and viable competition for CGC -- CGC is only 4 years old -- the time for competition will come, and when it does, one of the attacks that will be laid on CGC will be remembering the perception that CGC's grading and integrity is available to the highest bidder.

 

Whether it is the truth or not is irrelevant -- how people perceive the truth is often more important than the actual truth itself (sad to say). Engaging in programs like this is going to open CGC up to entirely new world of criticism. It's not a question of damage for today or tomorrow... CGC will be alive and well, but I believe that this decision will be a factor in CGC's long term health.

[Clark Khaos-migration]

Another question that's bugging me.....

 

Why the hell didn't someone from CGC come on here and debunk the whole "it was an April's Fools joke" thread? They obviously knew the info was correct but instead let everyone believe it was a joke? They've always been quick to correct speculation in the past.....

 

Very, very uncool.....

 

Jim

 

Borock doesn't seem to understand that while telling a lie is NOT the same as just remaining silent when one knows the truth, both methods are extremely damaging to one's credibility when the truth does eventually come out.

 

So, Steve, you're not a liar. Fine. But you also aren't one given to sharing information, and that makes you just as bad. And don't use the "I'm busy grading books!" excuse, please. It's a little late for excuses.

[FFB]

Rob,

 

Great column. I was thinking exactly the same thing on all counts. I got a free grading submission for organizing the CGC forum dinner. Now I not only don't want the freebie, but I am not going to submit any books to CGC while this program is in effect. This whole thing is absolute [!@#%^&^] and I am personally offended not only because CGC would sell out its integrity to a company like WIZARD, but also because of Steve's comment about the "If I ran my company the way people on message boards want me to" quote from Joe Q. We are (or were) your CUSTOMERS, Steve. If you don't listen to us, then we don't have to use you. Most of us can grade books on our own, and can learn how to detect resto on our own. You are not bigger than the hobby, and that kind of arrogance (that you don't need to listen to your customers and don't care what they think, or how many small store owners you hurt by allowing Wizard first crack at high grade slabbed books on a special grading scale) really makes me mad. Those guys have a hard enough time making ends meet as it is. Now you want to hurt them in one of the few areas that has allowed them to improve their business in the last decade? I really, really, truly hope that this move comes back to bite you all in the [!@#%^&^].

 

I suspect the backlash may be more than you seem to anticipate.

 

Here's my addition to the backlash.

 

I WAS going to write about my favorite SA keys today (as I mentioned recently) but this garbage put me in a slightly different mode.

[deathlok]

Why is their the perception that it is bad to buy a grading system? Isn't that the point? Before CGC there was the standard OS grading of alpha grading (NM, VF, etc.). CGC comes along and uses numerical equivalents to the alpha grrades. 3PG, another grading company, adopts a 100 point scale for grading comics. So yes if you have the capital you too can adopt your own grading system. That is not the issue here. The issue is whether the consumers accept your grading system. Obviously the public has accepted with open arms CGC's system. CGG basically copied CGC's. 3PG hasn't really been embraced by the public. Time will tell if Wizard's system will be accepted or not.

[sborock]

"I'll keep submitting books to CGC, because I still have books to sell, and there are no viable alternatives (though, after this rant, the grades may not be as good). When those books are gone, I'm done. Over and out. Can't believe a company that is so far behind on it's service would announce a program like this (Yes, I read what Steve said about turnaround times - I just don't believe it). "

 

I don't take offense very often here, but two parts of your statement really bugs me

 

Everybody is allowed to speak their minds here and IT DOES NOT AFFECT HOW WE GRADE BOOKS. You are implying that I know they are your books and that I am a vindictive person. This is not true.

 

Also, about the turn times statement, believe what you like, but I have NEVER lied to the board members here. I have ALWAYS been straight with all of you, Please do not call me a liar

 

Hey Steve, I hear ya' on that one. The false accusations you are hearing are stated by people who are angry, upset or offended. Happens all the time, with many different subjects, with each other, and is usually unfair. However, these unfair comments will unfortunately continue to pour in when people see something like this that they don't like. I can understand and somewhat agree with your Quesada quote, but just remember that us board members are among the most loyal of your clientele, and as a whole most likely represent a large portion of your business. The unfair accusations should certainly cease, but the problem still exists and is going to make alot of people angry at CGC and question your business practices. I don't think that can be avoided. CGG has suffered similar injustices recently. Now, unfortunately it is your turn to be put under the micsoscope and picked apart on this idea. -----Sid

 

Sid-

I can understand what you are saying BUT I and CGC are not anything like cgg and that guy that runs/owns it. CGC has never:

 

Hid the fact of what our holder is made of until we were forced to say what is was when exposed.

 

Sent false scans of a book and said it was sent by a mystery employee who we "fired"

 

Missed restoration and then blamed our submitters for "switching" books

 

Put up phoney testimonials on our web site

 

Lied about consulting industry experts for our grading standards

 

Never skipped a restoration check on books because we know/trust the people submitting them.

 

Never said something like "The more we try to explain things, the worse we look"

 

I could go on, but I just don't like being compared to a shady outfit.

 

I understand that some people won't like this Wizard First thing, that's life, I will deal with it. But unlike cgg, I have never given people a reason to doubt my honesty or my integrity.

 

Oh, and Awe, the 10.0 will still be a 10.0. There will be no watering down of the 10.0 grade.