Wizard First Program - Not April's Fools

[Ares]

Is wizard gonna get the first run off the presses or are they gonna get to cherry pick the best of the lot?

[Clark Khaos-migration]

of course if you weren't so busy instigating flame wars on this board and the CPG boards then maybe you might learn a thing or two, wouldn't you BUG?

 

First of all, you lowbrow troll, Bug is the biggest proponent of CGC that ever walked the earth. Why would he take a stance like this? Secondly, you all need to make up your mind about who I am: Hammer or Bug?

 

 

The funny thing is, I thought my new name/"shill" joke was completely obvious. Hell, Arch got it, and the last time I checked, he didn't even COLLECT comic books.

[deathlok]

of course if you weren't so busy instigating flame wars on this board and the CPG boards then maybe you might learn a thing or two, wouldn't you BUG?

 

First of all, you lowbrow troll, Bug is the biggest proponent of CGC that ever walked the earth. Why would he take a stance like this? Secondly, you all need to make up your mind about who I am: Hammer or Bug?

 

 

The funny thing is, I thought my new name/"shill" joke was completely obvious. Hell, Arch got it, and the last time I checked, he didn't even COLLECT comic books.

 

so then you are a shill account? who can keep up with your activities or even care to?

[FFB]

FK,

 

I want to ask you to pardon me in advance for my reply below, because it is not you who I'm mad at.

 

"Why not just use the normal system?" you ask. Because with the normal system, it would take longer to mass produce collectibles, which would remove the incentive for doing the Wizard deal in the first place.

 

Do you honestly believe that these "Wizard First" graders are going to be following the same CGC grading scale on 10.0s, but not on all the other books, when it is not even the same graders doing the grading? Who are they trying to kid here?

 

No one is suggesting that CGC adopt every suggestion that they get from the message board or the internet. But when people are mad because CGC is engaging in something that smacks of favoritism and conflict of interest, they had better take notice because the ONLY reason that the CGC name meant anything in the first place is because of public trust. This move erodes that trust in a big way.

 

I have seen a lot of accusations leveled toward CGC in the last few months, in terms of special treatment for Heritage submissions, blown calls on grading, missed resto, whatever. None of these has caused me to question the actual integrity of the guys at CGC, no matter how badly they blew a call. But this Wizard thing really feels like shady dealing to me.

 

Whether Wizard gets "softie" grades or not, the potential is there, and as the saying goes, one must avoid "even the appearance of impropriety." For a company whose brand is only as strong as the public's trust, this is even more true. And if I (a very pro-CGC guy) feel this way, how do you think that a lot of other people are going to feel, who didn't start out with a warm and fuzzy feeling toward CGC like I did? And then once the public trust erodes, how long do you think it'll take for CGC to repair it, or will they be able to repair it at all, if their name becomes associated with making a special grading scale for a favored customer?

 

This whole move feels to me like a huge betrayal of the trust that CGC has built up over the last few years, and a huge slap in the face to the little guys who helped make CGC successful, and who will be competing with Wizard for high grade slabbed new issues. Except that Wizard First means that Wizard will get their books first, and by the time the little guy gets his books, demand will have slackened considerably.

 

"If I ran my business by what the message boards and the internet wanted, I would have been out of the business." - Joe Quesada

 

 

actually... football... i like this quote, because quite honestly it's true. I'm not suggesting that Steve and his crew seriously consider all of the garbage lobbed up on the boards or at shows etc. I'm sure they do carefully listen to us, but they aren't going to run a company based on the masses opinion of the moment. But I hope somebody over CGC thought about the public backlash on this one before they agreed to do it with Wizard...

 

Now if the 10.0 standard is remaining a 10.0 -- what is a 9.5? Why is Wizard's 9.5 different -- why is there a new grading system if you are still using CGC's own 10.0? Isn't this going to be more confusing -- cause now I'm confused -- on the one hand you're saying this is Wizard's grading system, and so clearly recognizable to all, and on the other hand your saying the integrity of the standard for a 10.0 isn't changing at all. That sounds like it's something in between. Why not just use the normal system?

[FFB]

Hambug?

 

of course if you weren't so busy instigating flame wars on this board and the CPG boards then maybe you might learn a thing or two, wouldn't you BUG?

 

First of all, you lowbrow troll, Bug is the biggest proponent of CGC that ever walked the earth. Why would he take a stance like this? Secondly, you all need to make up your mind about who I am: Hammer or Bug?

 

 

The funny thing is, I thought my new name/"shill" joke was completely obvious. Hell, Arch got it, and the last time I checked, he didn't even COLLECT comic books.

[Foolkiller]

Football,

In principle, I agree with what you're saying and the reasons for it. In fact, I've been saying the same thing.

 

Whoever gave the go ahead on this deal I think underestimated just how much potential backlash there's going to be here... and did not go through just how much of a problem this is going to cause.

 

Whether or not this truly favoritism or not is not the question, but rather the perception...

 

It's not that I will stop buying CGC books or never submit again... but rather I look at it as just a very, very poor business decision -- which they obviously don't see right now... and that concerns me. The future of the health of CGC is at stake, and this is going to add credence to every critic who has accused them of favoritism.

[wormboy]

"I'll keep submitting books to CGC, because I still have books to sell, and there are no viable alternatives (though, after this rant, the grades may not be as good). When those books are gone, I'm done. Over and out. Can't believe a company that is so far behind on it's service would announce a program like this (Yes, I read what Steve said about turnaround times - I just don't believe it). "

 

I don't take offense very often here, but two parts of your statement really bugs me

 

Everybody is allowed to speak their minds here and IT DOES NOT AFFECT HOW WE GRADE BOOKS. You are implying that I know they are your books and that I am a vindictive person. This is not true.

 

Also, about the turn times statement, believe what you like, but I have NEVER lied to the board members here. I have ALWAYS been straight with all of you, Please do not call me a liar

 

Well, I guess I should be honored that I have the rare ability to offend you. If you look at my previous posts, I'm not an offensive person. I just happen to be pi$$ed.

 

I've always had a problem with the "We don't know who owns the books" argument. How can that be true? You will know who sent in the Wizard books, right? When Heritage, or another large submitter, sends in hundereds of books, you must have to plan for that ("Heritage is sending in 900 books, so try to get these graded before theirs come in"), right? Anyway, that's not the thing I'm angry about. I don't even care that much about the grading scale, as I don't really collect CGC moderns, but buy what I like to read.

 

What I'm angry about is that your turnaround times are already horrific, and now you're letting someone cut in line in front of me.

 

As far as calling you a liar regarding turnaround times, I guess I'll just say, I'll believe it when I see it. Actions speak louder than words. I just waited over 4 months for standard submissions, and you're adding "Wizard FIRST " in front of me?

[sborock]

If you waited over 4 months for a standard submission, I will eat my hat.

[FFB]

Just to be clear -- I'm not going to stop buying CGC graded books submitted by someone else. I am not stupid and I won't cut my nose off to spite my face, just because CGC wants to sell out to Wizard. It isn't like the books themselves, sitting in the slabs, are evil. But I will not submit any books for grading because I refuse to pay grading fees to an "impartial" grading service that isn't.

 

To be honest with everyone, as I think I've said before, I have never submitted a book for grading. I had a stack of about 30 or so that I was planning on submitting this weekend at WonderCon (mostly express, but a couple of walkthroughs due to book value), but they are going back in my closet. I am comfortable enough with my own grading that I know what shape the books are in, and I won't give the company any of my money after this Wizard fiasco. If the Wizard First program comes to a welcome and early end, then I'll reconsider and probably submit my books one day, assuming that there are no more boneheaded programs like Wizard First that crop up. But not until then.

 

Football,

In principle, I agree with what you're saying and the reasons for it. In fact, I've been saying the same thing.

 

Whoever gave the go ahead on this deal I think underestimated just how much potential backlash there's going to be here... and did not go through just how much of a problem this is going to cause.

 

Whether or not this truly favoritism or not is not the question, but rather the perception...

 

It's not that I will stop buying CGC books or never submit again... but rather I look at it as just a very, very poor business decision -- which they obviously don't see right now... and that concerns me. The future of the health of CGC is at stake, and this is going to add credence to every critic who has accused them of favoritism.

[drbanner]

Obviously, this has been in the works for a while (see attached).

[Zanarkand]

Would anyone be happier if the 9.5 disappeared, and the regular grading system took over?

 

That would probably be even worse. In order to provide a Wizard exclusive product at all, which is really the point, the crew in Sarasota has to know which books are Wizard's. That leads to a real integrity issue.

 

Steve B has said a few times, and I happen to think it's true, that when they grade a comic they have no idea where it came from or who owns it. But how can they say that when there's a product on the market that clearly indicates CGC was aware of the source? Maybe the graders didn't know, but the perception is there. It doesn't matter what reality is, perception is reality in the business world.

 

So they were faced with a choice. Either forego the contract, or accept the contract but try to create the perception that their general impartiality was unaffected.

[jimm94]

Now if the 10.0 standard is remaining a 10.0 -- what is a 9.5? Why is Wizard's 9.5 different -- why is there a new grading system if you are still using CGC's own 10.0? Isn't this going to be more confusing -- cause now I'm confused -- on the one hand you're saying this is Wizard's grading system, and so clearly recognizable to all, and on the other hand your saying the integrity of the standard for a 10.0 isn't changing at all. That sounds like it's something in between. Why not just use the normal system?

 

Hi Foolkiller,

 

Good question. I'll take a stab at it with my interpretation of this issue:

 

A 10.0 is a 10.0 no matter which grading scale you look at. Perfect is perfect.

 

Without rounding up grades (which I don't expect CGC to do), Wizard's 9.5 could potentially be a CGC 9.6 or 9.8. Likewise, a Wizard 9.0 could possibly be a CGC 9.0, 9.2 or 9.4.

 

And as your pointed out, Steve Borock mentioned earlier in this thread that the Wizard First Program uses Wizard's grading, not CGC's already established standards. Interchangeability shouldn't be assumed, and is not guaranteed.

 

Using a different, broader scale further differentiates standard CGC grading with the Wizard product. That's a good thing!

 

Steve also said the back of the label mentions that grading is based on Wizard's grading scale. As a compromise, I'd suggest the possibility of implementing more specific grade branding for Wizard First books. Perhaps something like "WizardScale - Graded by CGC" could be used on the top of the front label?

 

-Jim

[ArAich]

OK Steve...let me get this straight...If a "Wizard 1st" gets a 10.0 and is sent in for a CGC Universal reholder it will get a 10.0 ...What in the world will a "Wizard 1st" 9.5 get if it is sent in for reholdering(is that a word???)...

[Rip]

Steve a few questions:

 

Does a Wizard Red 9.5=CGC Blue 9.4-9.9

Does a Wizard Red 9.0=CGC Blue 9.0-9.2

 

 

Do you know the limit on Wizard Submissions on a Marvel book? 25...50...100?

 

Certainlly in adds confusion and creates more 10.0 Marvel books.

[Red Hook]

I think the guys at CGG are finally having a good day today!

[Marvelous]

Would anyone be happier if the 9.5 disappeared, and the regular grading system took over?

 

 

Is this a possibility Steve?

 

That would be the logical thing to do IMHO. That would end this whole debate.

[FFB]

Yes, in the same way that career minor league ballplayers had a good day when Sammy Sosa got caught with a corked bat.

 

I think the guys at CGG are finally having a good day today!

[Foolkiller]

Jimm:

 

I hope Steve also takes a stab at answering this quandry. Because I am legitimately confused by the answers he's supplied. I know a 10.0 should be a 10.0 -- but I think having one company using two standards is problematic to begin with.

 

Wizard scale? well here's my problem with that... I thought CGC had it's own scale, own grading parameters, own ideas on grading... and what, if you give them enough books you can submit your own scale and have them grade to it?

 

I do think a cure to part of the problem is to submit the books and at the very least have them all subject to the same scale. But now it's clear -- CGC knows the source of the books, and even if they aren't favoring one group of books over another... a lot of people will simply assume they are.

[supapimp]

one word forumites......CAPITALISM like it or not, you'd do the same thing in CGC shoes. i'm not crazy about the whole wizard team up, but if CGC pick up their turnaround times all will be good.

[RS]

This has to be a continued joke. I don't even know how to effectively articulate how bad of an idea this would be for Wizard and CGC to do this. Has anyone called Wizard to verify this and if it is a joke enough is enough.

 

No Wizard store