Moderns that are heating up on ebay! 71 71

[divad]

It's just the age old argument over a cameo and a first full appearance....I kind of like the 17 page.

 

it reeks of Hulk 180/181 ...here we go ...again

 

Except that it's a much stronger case for Hulk 180 . . .

[divad]

What in the hell is going on with Man of Steel #17??

 

Did the market suddenly decide they prefer that to #18?

 

Or are the market buyers too dumb to know the difference.

 

Apparently so.

 

I have a few 18's and actually pulled a few 17's the other day out of my LCS's dollar bins. Am I missing something? :shrug:

 

From day one MoS #17 has always been the more valuable book due to its much lower print run. Nothing has really changed. You can check the recent debates on the issue:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6818071#Post6818071

 

 

Yes. We all participated in that debate. Perhaps you should take a moment and actually read the the thread.

[Solar]

It's just the age old argument over a cameo and a first full appearance....I kind of like the 17 page.

 

it reeks of Hulk 180/181 ...here we go ...again

 

Except that it's a much stronger case for Hulk 180 . . .

 

+1

 

Character's hand punching a wall ≠ Full body shot of character introducing himself

[Jaydogrules]

It's just the age old argument over a cameo and a first full appearance....I kind of like the 17 page.

 

it reeks of Hulk 180/181 ...here we go ...again

 

Except that it's a much stronger case for Hulk 180 . . .

 

+1

 

Character's hand punching a wall ≠ Full body shot of character introducing himself

 

That's why 180 is called a "cameo", with 181 called the "first full appearance".

 

-J.

[darkstar]

The print run was enormous on all of these books and everybody thought these were collector's items. I was living in Houston when these came out and they took up huge sections of the of the wall. I can see demand being high but not higher than it was back then and I'm betting over 90% of these are pristine still today. I think #18 is the book to have but I think both are too heavily available to have lasting value due to the fact that he came back.

 

There may not have been as many of these as Spawn #1s on the shelf but it was extremely close.

 

This isn't true and it especially isn't true of issue 17.

[the authority]

What isn't true ? Everybody was buying bags and boards in the 90s and print runs were huge. Ask anybody who was buying back then. This was a big deal in the market at that time and the market was much bigger than now for DC.

[divad]

The print run was enormous on all of these books and everybody thought these were collector's items. I was living in Houston when these came out and they took up huge sections of the of the wall. I can see demand being high but not higher than it was back then and I'm betting over 90% of these are pristine still today. I think #18 is the book to have but I think both are too heavily available to have lasting value due to the fact that he came back.

 

There may not have been as many of these as Spawn #1s on the shelf but it was extremely close.

 

This isn't true and it especially isn't true of issue 17.

 

Perhaps you could provide some persuasive evidence of your statement?

[darkstar]

High print runs are relative and are not an absolute when attempting to determine the demand and thus the value of a book.

 

Man of Steel 17 was not highly printed, in relation to the demand of the book, then and now. The Death of Superman story arc did not actually begin until Man of Steel 18, and the five printings of that book should indicate to you that even at the time it was initially printed DC underestimated the demand for the book.

 

First printings of the Death of Superman arc issues did not actually explode until issue 19 of MoS and Superman #75, which is why you can't go into a comic shop without tripping over those two books to this very day. And despite this you can still get between 15 and 25 dollars for your sealed copy of #75 on eBay.

 

When looking at the high print run of issue 18 the only thing that really matters is the first print. The additional printings, while counted toward the total print run of the book, are not a substitute for a copy of the first print.

 

Someone looking for this book isn't going to grab a 3rd or 4th print, be satisfied and call it a day. They will want this first print, because its a FIRST PRINT (and collectors are anal about details like this) and because it is the easiest and cheapest (other than maybe the second print) print to acquire.

 

But of course collectors also are usually interested in having the "best" or "rarest" version of something, or all versions of something, which is why they are willing to pay more for the lower printed additional printings.

 

Man of Steel 17 has sold for more than issue 18 for at least the past year, if not longer. I am talking solely about the first prints and raw copies. The reason for this is that listings for 18 have always dwarfed listings for 17.

 

There are usually at least three times as many listings for copies of 18 as there are 17 at any given time on eBay, if not more. In fact, if you do a search for sold items on eBay you'll see that that sales for 18 have outpaced the sales of 17 by a factor of 6.

 

Look at the cgc census.

 

MoS 18 - 1st - 604 graded copies, 5 in 9.9, 367 in 9.8

MoS 18 - 2nd - 13 copies, 9 in 9.8

Mos 18 - 3rd - 6 copies, 5 in 9.8

Mos 18 - 4th - 3 copies, 2 in 9.8

Mos 18 - 5th - 6 copies, 4 in 9.8

 

Mos 17 - 1st - 72 copies, 38 9.8

Mos 17 - 2nd - 3 copies, NONE in 9.8

 

These books have definitely been trending upward lately because of speculation regarding the appearance of Doomsday in Man of Steel 2, so I wouldn't go running to eBay and buying up all available copies. However, I would try and snipe the under the radar auction listings for low prices though and I would most certainly recommend obtaining any and all copies of these books from you local comic shops if they are available at non-eBay prices

[the authority]

All of your points are valid and I'm certainly not suggesting there isn't demand for these books. I would suggest the reason is that #17 might have less graded copies is that most would perceive these to be less important and not necessarily less available. I liked all of the Superman stuff at that time so I personally don't have more or less of any issues in my PC. I do believe if demand increases for #17 and #18 because of movie speculation, you will see an explosion in the census. I don't personally think Doomsday is an "A" level villain that the Joker, Luthor, Venom, Thanos and the like are. DC has never been able to capitalize on him because he is too powerful. I perceive him to be a one dimensional atomic bomb type of character. Super powerful and destroys stuff and not a thinker and therefore somewhat limited. I do think there is a short term window to make money on these books.

[darkstar]

What isn't true ? Everybody was buying bags and boards in the 90s and print runs were huge. Ask anybody who was buying back then. This was a big deal in the market at that time and the market was much bigger than now for DC.

 

You are grossly over-estimating the percentage of comic book buyers that actually take care of their comics, especially when the book in question is purchased by non regular comic book buyers like the death of Superman issues were.

 

Also despite the high number of copies of these books, their availability to the market is somewhat depressed because a great many of them are just sitting in attics and basements of people who again are not comic collectors, or never were, and thus are never put up for sale. They just sit until they get thrown out. Or the owner attempts to pawn them off on an LCS who blindly catergorizes all of the books the owner brings in as 90s drek and doesn't bother to purchase them as back issue stock.

 

 

[the authority]

The comics sold new here in town are all bagged and boarded or a few are just bagged before they go on the shelves. It has been that way for as long as I can remember. Buy anything from Midtown, it comes with a bag and board. When I lived in Texas, they used bags and boards too. I will give you the late 70s and early 80s had BAD bags and boards but people who buy at their LCS aren't the same as your Barnes and Noble buyers imo.

 

I think if you look at ebay, the majority of books produced in the last 30 years are sold as a rule in VF or better condition with just as many NM or better condition. People's aw comics and ball cards as investments or at least as something worth preserving.

[Taco]

Does anyone have a copy of Sweet Tooth #9? I'm curious if iZombie has a preview in it.

[lightninglad]

What in the hell is going on with Man of Steel #17??

 

Did the market suddenly decide they prefer that to #18?

 

Or are the market buyers too dumb to know the difference.

 

Apparently so.

 

I have a few 18's and actually pulled a few 17's the other day out of my LCS's dollar bins. Am I missing something? :shrug:

 

From day one MoS #17 has always been the more valuable book due to its much lower print run. Nothing has really changed. You can check the recent debates on the issue:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6818071#Post6818071

 

 

Yes. We all participated in that debate. Perhaps you should take a moment and actually read the the thread.

 

I've read it in it's entirety and while it certainly addresses what is a cameo and what is a full appearance it does not address why #17 sells for more money then 18 and has for some time So, I'll re-post what i wrote in the Coppers Heating up discussion :

 

"Everybody knew a big story was starting with MoS 18, I'm sure retailers ordered accordingly, but the cameo books completely took people by surprise. When people finally caught on to who it was in those cameos shots, those books quickly disappeared, with MoS 17 being the one highly sought after. It immediately jumped to be $15-$20 book. I can't give you the numbers, but you could find tons of MoS 18's but MoS 17's were very hard to come by. IMO MoS 17 from the very start has always been the more valuable book.

 

I know we like to place rules on these types of things but I think each case is unique. In this case, the cameo is harder to find. Plus MoS 18 isn't really much of a first appearance. He's hidden in a suit the entire issue. If you were to show the average person who knew what Doomsday looks like, but knew nothing about comics, the cover to MoS 18 they'd say... "That's not Doomsday!"

 

So call the issues whatever you like but at the end of day I think 17 is and always will be the more valuable of the two, though 18 will close the gap some. There is room for both to be worth owning. It doesn't have to be a war of one against the other. \:\)

 

I have Diamond sales rankings but no print run numbers:

 

September 1992 MoS 17 was #97 on their sales chart. All Superman titles were low. Adventures didn't even make top 100.

 

October 1992 MoS 18 moves up to #77.

 

November 1992 MoS 19 jumps way up to #19

 

It's not quite as big of a difference between 17 and 18 as I would of thought, but def shows 17 was a lower print run. I also wonder if more newsstand copies of 18 survived. MoS 17's may have been pulled by the time people caught on to the whole Superman's being killed thing."

[gradejunky]

What isn't true ? Everybody was buying bags and boards in the 90s and print runs were huge. Ask anybody who was buying back then. This was a big deal in the market at that time and the market was much bigger than now for DC.

 

You are grossly over-estimating the percentage of comic book buyers that actually take care of their comics, especially when the book in question is purchased by non regular comic book buyers like the death of Superman issues were.

 

Also despite the high number of copies of these books, their availability to the market is somewhat depressed because a great many of them are just sitting in attics and basements of people who again are not comic collectors, or never were, and thus are never put up for sale. They just sit until they get thrown out. Or the owner attempts to pawn them off on an LCS who blindly catergorizes all of the books the owner brings in as 90s drek and doesn't bother to purchase them as back issue stock.

 

 

All valid points, especially the "90's drek phenomena". Every time I'm in my biggest LCS chain here in Orlando, I hear at least one call were the employee is asking the person on the other end of the phone if the books they want to sell are 90's stuff.-no joke, every time. They always say the same thing. "ALL" those books were printed in the millions, none are worth a damn, yadda yadda. If they actually took the time to say hey, make a list and email it to us, they might be surprised by some harder to find gems in those drek boxes.

 

Again though, they are probably bombarded with multiple calls a day with the same type stuff people are looking to sell so I don't blame them really. The thing is though, I go through there boxes all the time and never find any of the scarcer 90's stuff because they just don't have it.

[lightninglad]

For what it's worth, Wizard 21 (May 1993)

 

 

It's simply supply and demand. I'd agree that more people may end up wanting MoS #18 but fact that there are fewer issues of #17 means that collectors who want both issues will keep #17's price as high or higher than #18.

Edited January 5, 2014 by lightninglad

[gradejunky]

I know this is not news, but TMNT IDW #2 an easy $30+ book. Even MCS sold one earlier last month for $20 something with a listed grade of 5.5?!?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111246826462?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[the authority]

What in the hell is going on with Man of Steel #17??

 

Did the market suddenly decide they prefer that to #18?

 

Or are the market buyers too dumb to know the difference.

 

Apparently so.

 

I have a few 18's and actually pulled a few 17's the other day out of my LCS's dollar bins. Am I missing something? :shrug:

 

From day one MoS #17 has always been the more valuable book due to its much lower print run. Nothing has really changed. You can check the recent debates on the issue:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6818071#Post6818071

 

 

Yes. We all participated in that debate. Perhaps you should take a moment and actually read the the thread.

 

I've read it in it's entirety and while it certainly addresses what is a cameo and what is a full appearance it does not address why #17 sells for more money then 18 and has for some time So, I'll re-post what i wrote in the Coppers Heating up discussion :

 

"Everybody knew a big story was starting with MoS 18, I'm sure retailers ordered accordingly, but the cameo books completely took people by surprise. When people finally caught on to who it was in those cameos shots, those books quickly disappeared, with MoS 17 being the one highly sought after. It immediately jumped to be $15-$20 book. I can't give you the numbers, but you could find tons of MoS 18's but MoS 17's were very hard to come by. IMO MoS 17 from the very start has always been the more valuable book.

 

I know we like to place rules on these types of things but I think each case is unique. In this case, the cameo is harder to find. Plus MoS 18 isn't really much of a first appearance. He's hidden in a suit the entire issue. If you were to show the average person who knew what Doomsday looks like, but knew nothing about comics, the cover to MoS 18 they'd say... "That's not Doomsday!"

 

So call the issues whatever you like but at the end of day I think 17 is and always will be the more valuable of the two, though 18 will close the gap some. There is room for both to be worth owning. It doesn't have to be a war of one against the other. \:\)

 

I have Diamond sales rankings but no print run numbers:

 

September 1992 MoS 17 was #97 on their sales chart. All Superman titles were low. Adventures didn't even make top 100.

 

October 1992 MoS 18 moves up to #77.

 

November 1992 MoS 19 jumps way up to #19

 

It's not quite as big of a difference between 17 and 18 as I would of thought, but def shows 17 was a lower print run. I also wonder if more newsstand copies of 18 survived. MoS 17's may have been pulled by the time people caught on to the whole Superman's being killed thing."

 

It doesn't definitely show a lower print run. I just picked a book at random and came up with this.

 

Daredevil 32 was #73 on comichron October sales with 34,957 copies

Daredevil 33 was #62 on comichron November sales with 32,966 copies.

 

Placement on the chart is not necessarily a good guesstimator for actual sales. The #19 I think is a more likely to be a valid measuring point.

[divad]

Plus MoS 18 isn't really much of a first appearance. He's hidden in a suit the entire issue. If you were to show the average person who knew what Doomsday looks like, but knew nothing about comics, the cover to MoS 18 they'd say... "That's not Doomsday!"

 

Definitely "isn't much of a first appearance" . . .

 

 

 

[the authority]

[divad]

I can't give you the numbers, but you could find tons of MoS 18's but MoS 17's were very hard to come by. IMO MoS 17 from the very start has always been the more valuable book.

 

I know we like to place rules on these types of things but I think each case is unique. In this case, the cameo is harder to find. Plus MoS 18 isn't really much of a first appearance. He's hidden in a suit the entire issue. If you were to show the average person who knew what Doomsday looks like, but knew nothing about comics, the cover to MoS 18 they'd say... "That's not Doomsday!"

 

So call the issues whatever you like but at the end of day I think 17 is and always will be the more valuable of the two, though 18 will close the gap some. There is room for both to be worth owning. It doesn't have to be a war of one against the other. \:\)

 

I have Diamond sales rankings but no print run numbers:

 

September 1992 MoS 17 was #97 on their sales chart. All Superman titles were low. Adventures didn't even make top 100.

 

October 1992 MoS 18 moves up to #77.

 

November 1992 MoS 19 jumps way up to #19

 

It's not quite as big of a difference between 17 and 18 as I would of thought, but def shows 17 was a lower print run. I also wonder if more newsstand copies of 18 survived. MoS 17's may have been pulled by the time people caught on to the whole Superman's being killed thing."

 

Seriously, what remains undisputed is one, that there are huge number of both issues, and neither of them are difficult to locate, and two, the #17 is a cameo, and #18 is a full first appearance.