Comic people on Frank Miller's rant

[dover]

Moore uses too many words.

 

Moore's words use him too much.

 

It is because he is in love with his message to the detriment of the story.

 

 

Well now, you see the money & self-promotion is in Batman. So you tell a dishonest Batman story to advance your message & career rather than an honest Tom Strong story which may promote your message but may not do much for your wealth & fame.

 

Do you think Miller wrote the Dark Knight for reasons other than his own desire to -script a different version of Batman; his version?

 

Or was it to express his ego?

[TupennyConan]

I'll try to answer your question inasmuch as I am able to understand it. My answer will be pure conjecture; I don't know Miller's intent & am no Miller expert.

 

As I understand the history, Miller did something unique with Batman. It is possible that I had read no more than a half dozen Batman books prior to DKR. I'm a Marvel zombie. I liked DKR about as much as I believe I am able to like a comic book; but I had it easier than the DC fanboy, steeped in tradition -- there was no precedent for DKR to offend with me.

 

Certainly Miller was well compensated for DKR, relatively speaking.

 

My speculation is that Miller, as top dog of the day, was granted a choice opportunity to run wild in the DC sandbox. It was an 'Elseworlds' exploration, if that is the correct DC language. He took that freedom & paycheck & parlayed it into fame & further fortune by doing his own thing. His career proves his ability to market himself well. I suppose that he must have known that DKR, if successful, would advance his career in an even greater write-your-own-ticket way.

 

I can't be sure what you mean by ego but if you mean the self-promotion of a careerist off to market then I have offered an answer. Hollywood, though a stretch at the time for a comics guy, was forseeable. He landed Robocop 2, correct?

 

I also addressed the artist's ego. Surely we must agree that he took on Batman to express his artistic vision.

[TupennyConan]

Outside of Greek statues, when is a beheading appropriate? Or not violent?

 

 

My concept of obscene violence has evolved with age.

 

I wrote an essay on this for the thread a few days ago. Please see my post supra.

[dover]

Fame can be a wonderful thing. It opens doorways that would otherwise be closed.

 

Some people can fill those new stages while others fail to perform.

 

Moore still uses too many words to tell a comic book story.

[Prince Namor]

I'm not sure Miller or DC had an understanding that DKR's would be as big of a deal as it was.

 

[Logan510]

I'm not sure Miller or DC had an understanding that DKR's would be as big of a deal as it was.

 

 

Especially considering how they had given him carte blanche to do Ronin ( who else was DC giving permission to do creator owned projects at the time ? ) and considering what a financial flop that was.

[Prince Namor]

Anyway, was Moore's Miracleman violence gratuitous, profound, artistic, or obscene?

 

I haven't read it but I've seen some of the art. Is anyone willing to justify or explain the artistic or literary or social merits of the Miracleman violence?

 

There's a big difference obviously in sanitized mainstream media violence and what Moore did in Miracleman #15, but the reasoning behind it, I believe is sound.

Of course, I can only assume his reasoning, but if you're going to show the devastating effects of if a super villian decided to REALLY go nuts and destroy and kill like a god among ants (this is the important part, becasue it ties in with the whole theme), how can you sanitize that without losing the message?

I seem to remember, DC recently in one of those crossover storyline event things, had Black Adam destroy a whole country or something, and there was outrage or whatever, but it was very sanitized and LAME. And of course he's still a hero or something.

Miracleman went a different direction...

 

[TupennyConan]

I'm not sure Miller or DC had an understanding that DKR's would be as big of a deal as it was.

 

No one can read the entrails but the unusual format of DKR (Prestige?) gives some indication that DC & Miller knew that they were producing something special -- commercially special. That's one indicator of what they were predicting, isn't it?

 

 

[TupennyConan]

Anyway, was Moore's Miracleman violence gratuitous, profound, artistic, or obscene?

 

I haven't read it but I've seen some of the art. Is anyone willing to justify or explain the artistic or literary or social merits of the Miracleman violence?

 

There's a big difference obviously in sanitized mainstream media violence and what Moore did in Miracleman #15, but the reasoning behind it, I believe is sound.

Of course, I can only assume his reasoning, but if you're going to show the devastating effects of if a super villian decided to REALLY go nuts and destroy and kill like a god among ants (this is the important part, becasue it ties in with the whole theme), how can you sanitize that without losing the message?

I seem to remember, DC recently in one of those crossover storyline event things, had Black Adam destroy a whole country or something, and there was outrage or whatever, but it was very sanitized and LAME. And of course he's still a hero or something.

Miracleman went a different direction...

 

Why is that a praiseworthy story concept? Why isn't that realistic depiction a lame comic book story?

[Prince Namor]

Anyway, was Moore's Miracleman violence gratuitous, profound, artistic, or obscene?

 

I haven't read it but I've seen some of the art. Is anyone willing to justify or explain the artistic or literary or social merits of the Miracleman violence?

 

There's a big difference obviously in sanitized mainstream media violence and what Moore did in Miracleman #15, but the reasoning behind it, I believe is sound.

Of course, I can only assume his reasoning, but if you're going to show the devastating effects of if a super villian decided to REALLY go nuts and destroy and kill like a god among ants (this is the important part, becasue it ties in with the whole theme), how can you sanitize that without losing the message?

I seem to remember, DC recently in one of those crossover storyline event things, had Black Adam destroy a whole country or something, and there was outrage or whatever, but it was very sanitized and LAME. And of course he's still a hero or something.

Miracleman went a different direction...

 

Why is that a praiseworthy story concept? Why isn't that realistic depiction a lame comic book story?

 

As opposed to the same one note superhero story concept being regurgitated ad nauseam? The deconstruction of the superhero mythos was overdue.

[Prince Namor]

I'm not sure Miller or DC had an understanding that DKR's would be as big of a deal as it was.

 

No one can read the entrails but the unusual format of DKR (Prestige?) gives some indication that DC & Miller knew that they were producing something special -- commercially special. That's one indicator of what they were predicting, isn't it?

 

 

It could've had to do more with Miller himself being perceived as special. They did release Ronin as a series previous to that with nowhere near the success.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that DC was unsure of the DKR.

[TupennyConan]

During my run the past hour, I thought about your Miracleman post & it occurred to me that the Biblical flood story is taught to children & found praiseworthy.

[Prince Namor]

During my run the past hour, I thought about your Miracleman post & it occurred to me that the Biblical flood story is taught to children & found praiseworthy.

 

Wow. That's a profound comparison.

[RickL]

Miller's blog is not coping at all with the flood of comments. It doesn't present replies in a nested format and so there is now a rather long column, one character wide and off to the far right of the screen, of furious repartee. It's very hard to read and to make it worse gaps between words don't seem to register.

 

It somewhat looks like this and stretches on and on.

 

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vicious stuff if you can actually read it.

[RickL]

With the violence in Miracleman and Moore seemed to be drawing parallels to the great violent upheavals and the industrialisation of killing that took place in the 20th century and the two world wars especially. It seemed to me to be intended to show violence in an appalling light. I've got to say I was stunned when I got to that sequence. Surely it was an uber-evil that men do moment.

 

Outside of Greek statues, when is a beheading appropriate? Or not violent?

I take it you are referring to this comment.

I would suggest beheading the bankers, but while it would be very satisfying and would cheer us up, it probably wouldn’t do anything practical to alter the situation.

I've listened to a few Moore interviews in the last week and imagined him saying that with his odd cadence, my guess is a stong stress falls on the "would" which does change the meaning and intent somewhat, giving it, perhaps, an ironic tone. It's is probably a joke and his immediate repudiation of the idea suggests so.

 

I guess he's the first to make this suggestion and I'm surprised that it hasn't caused more of a stir.

 

 

[TupennyConan]

Outside of Greek statues, when is a beheading appropriate? Or not violent?

I take it you are referring to this comment.

I would suggest beheading the bankers, but while it would be very satisfying and would cheer us up, it probably wouldn’t do anything practical to alter the situation.

I've listened to a few Moore interviews in the last week and imagined him saying that with his odd cadence, my guess is a stong stress falls on the "would" which does change the meaning and intent somewhat, giving it, perhaps, an ironic tone. It's is probably a joke and his immediate repudiation of the idea suggests so.

 

I guess he's the first to make this suggestion and I'm surprised that it hasn't caused more of a stir.

 

You certainly took Dover's bait.

 

Human nature proves time & again that we rush to defend those whose worldviews coincide with our own even in their most toxic moments. We are devotional creatures. Zealots, partisans, fanboys.

 

Your assigning of an audible stress to the written word 'would' so as to endow it with irony and your laboring to find a repudiation in an expression of the impractical guillotine is one such blatantly rigid & prejudicial taffy-pull. The warlock suggested -- that is recommended; that is if given the authority or opportunity 'would' -- 'beheading the bankers.' This subsequent qualifier was frustrated remorse, not ironic repudiation: 'it probably wouldn’t do anything practical to alter the situation.' He is an adult, not a schoolboy.

 

He's not the first to suggest society behead the rich. It's an ancient, perennial crime & has been carried through, famously. If we are going to discuss Moore's satanic call for murder, we should initiate that discussion with unreserved condemnation. Don't prop it up. Unless you agree with it. In which case, please say so & let's move on. Be honest about it. Moore was honest about it.

 

My guess is he is a pervert, more than somewhat, more than perhaps.

[TupennyConan]

Hasn't part of the Miracleman legal story consisted in it's not having been reprinted? Can I buy it in trade format?

 

Next year I'm going to read the Miracleman run (for the first time), From Hell (first time), Ronin (first read in the mid-'80's, still have my OO books), & Born Again (first read in the mid-'80's, still have my OO books).

[Theagenes]

This thread is making me want to finally read Miracleman to see what the fuss is all about. Downloading it right now.

[TupennyConan]

This thread is making me want to finally read Miracleman to see what the fuss is all about. Downloading it right now.

 

I want to read it more than From Hell.

[Theagenes]

This thread is making me want to finally read Miracleman to see what the fuss is all about. Downloading it right now.

 

I want to read it more than From Hell.

 

It's been on my reading list for years, but I just haven't gotten around it to it. This thread is making take the plunge. I've got a full pot of coffee and it looks like the first issue is ready. Full report forthcoming. (thumbs u