Action 5, CGC 9.4 blue on CLINK

[adamstrange]

What is wrong with pressing a comic book?

 

Seriously.

 

Three concerns:

 

1) Some are concerned that pressing damages the books. There was even a very limited before/after structural analysis study done on this that was discussed in the General Forum.

 

2) Some do not like it because it is mostly not disclosed, thus preventing them from having confidence that they have purchased an unmanipulated comic.

 

3) Some do not like it because it increases the quantity of higher graded copies, potentially devaluing existing copies.

 

I really don't get the disclosure issue. Essentially every Mile High pedigree book was pressed, right? The natural state of a comic book is not "flat." Any "flat" comic has been "manipulated," whether intentionally or not. Under that thinking, merely putting a comic in certain types of bags or holders would constitute "manipulation," as would packing comics in tight in boxes or stacking them.

 

If this dissing of pressing originates from folks trying to preserve a pecking order and not out of a concern for the comics themselves, then it is hard for me to respect it.

 

 

Pressing can involve multiple techniques with the main one related to potential damage involving the use of heat, humidity (sometimes) & a press. The Church copies are not viewed as pressed or damaged since no heat was involved.

 

Even when no heat is involved but some type of tool is employed then some consider that manipulation that should be disclosed. If, otoh, a book is merely stacked under some encyclopedias (simulating what happened to the Church copies) that would not necessarily require disclosure. I think there are some that would not want a folder corner to be unfolded or, if it was, that it be disclosed.

 

A search in the General Forum will yield a couple dozen threads that will provide, literally, weeks of entertaining reading as various Boardies argue the minutiae of "pressing" matters.

[Matt Nelson]

 

My earlier use of the term "flippers" was not correct as I was really referring to buyers who purchase books, surreptitiously manipulate them, and then resell them without any disclosure even though the work that was done is legally okay from CGC's point of view.

 

I use the word laundering because their very behaviour leaves the impression that is exactly what they are doing as evident by Jeff's comment below:

 

. I'm sure the 8.5 label will be submitted after the auction is over.

 

Since it's actually okay to press and resubmit books according to CGC, then I don't understand why they simply don't turn in the label at the time of resub, instead of waiting until the auction is over. This key difference in timing leaves the impression that the seller himself believes that what he is doing is not totally above board and honest. If he felt what he was doing is okay, shouldn't he also have the balls to MANNUP and turn in the old label up front instead of waiting until the auction is over.

 

 

Lou, you're proceeding from the assumption that the book's owner is the one that cracked it out, rather then the person pressing the book. My understanding from Matt is that he does send labels in, but who knows how often.

 

I usually do submit the old label with the books, sometimes I do not. It all depends on the situation. But if I don't, will gather them up at some point and send them to CGC to remove from the census. I'm a strong supporter of an accurate census, and go to great lengths to make sure CGC eventually gets all of their old tags. Even though there might be some important old labels that never got back to CGC over the years, I wouldn't say CGC's census is wildly inaccurate. There's not many people cracking out expensive books. I know many of them, and we all agree that getting the old grades off the census is in everyone's best interest. More copies on the census simply means more percieved supply, which can adversely affect a book's value.

 

But there can be many reasons why a tag would not go back with the book when it's submitted to CGC a second time.

 

Unless I'm missing something, he says that he always sends the label in. Just not always with the book.

 

I sent my book to Matt in the case (mostly because I'm afraid I'll damage one if I crack it out). Not sure this is the case with most people, they may crack them out before sending them in. He may get a number of them without the labels.

 

My use of the word "wildly" was based on my own experiences. I may have been a bit "wild" using "wildly" ...as I said, my experiences are just a very small sample. I also never made a study of anything, these were just things I noticed because I was curious in these specific cases. A small sample, but the ones* I* specifically looked at were not accurate.

 

I didn't notice your post a few pages back where you said he told you he "tossed it". Maybe he has an explanation. I know he's turned the labels in without me asking on the 3 or 4 books I sent him.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the census numbers on some books are "wildly" off.

 

This was a number of years ago. I was concerned because the book went down in grade, so it would have looked like there was a higher example that didn't exist, otherwise, I probably would not have thought to ask...and no, I did not ask him not to submit it, ... .

 

I certainly didn't toss the label...never tossed a single one in the garbage in my whole life. But I did just confirm with CGC that the book was taken off the census. They couldn't tell me when, but probably shortly after the book was regraded.

 

[nearmint]

What is wrong with pressing a comic book?

 

Seriously.

 

Nothing really........but the mere fact that the people who are pressing their books and trying to hide this fact gives the distinct impression that these people themselves believe they are doing something underhanded and wrong.

 

If there is nothing wrong with pressing a comic, then why are they doing their best to conceal this activity from the marketplace. Especially when Borock himself have stated empatically that any rational person would pay full price for a book based upon the CGC grade itself, irregardless of whether a book had been pressed and upgraded or not.

 

Buy the label, not the book.

 

You're speaking in very broad terms. People disclose pressing every day right here in the marketplace.

[lou_fine]

What is wrong with pressing a comic book?

 

Seriously.

 

Nothing really........but the mere fact that the people who are pressing their books and trying to hide this fact gives the distinct impression that these people themselves believe they are doing something underhanded and wrong.

 

If there is nothing wrong with pressing a comic, then why are they doing their best to conceal this activity from the marketplace. Especially when Borock himself have stated empatically that any rational person would pay full price for a book based upon the CGC grade itself, irregardless of whether a book had been pressed and upgraded or not.

 

Buy the label, not the book.

 

You're speaking in very broad terms. People disclose pressing every day right here in the marketplace.

 

Yes, you are exactly right in this specific environment as I have already acknowledged in the past that many of the board members do indeed disclose pressing when they sell book in the CGC marketplace here. (thumbs u

 

I was referring more to the general auction sites such as Heritage, CL, Pedigree, etc. I certainly don't see any disclosure of pressing on these auction sites even though some of the books have ovbiously gone through the process. These auction sites account for a much larger market share of the slabbed comic book market.

 

I guess I should really reserved judgement on the Action #5 as it has not been officially listed yet and just may include the fact that it has been pressed, but I won't hold my breath waiting.

[skypinkblu]

I certainly didn't toss the label...never tossed a single one in the garbage in my whole life. But I did just confirm with CGC that the book was taken off the census. They couldn't tell me when, but probably shortly after the book was regraded.

 

(thumbs u

 

That's good to know Matt, because at the time, I got the impression (obviously wrong from what you are saying here) that you were not submitting all of them. I didn't really care about any others or the sanctity of the census at the time, so it was not terribly important to me.

 

So, now that we know you do submit ...do you do ALL of them eventually?

 

We'll just have to wonder about all the non professional restorers/pressers, who don't submit labels because they don't want to disclose what they are doing, or don't care about the census...but those people are probably mostly involved in newer books. There seem to be more and more people talking about pressing their own books every day...

 

I think I'll just take the info from Gerber, Overstreet and the Census, toss it up in the air see which lands closet to my chair and guess about scarcity;)

 

and ask Bedrock;)

[batman_fan]

 

Nothing really........but the mere fact that the people who are pressing their books and trying to hide this fact gives the distinct impression that these people themselves believe they are doing something underhanded and wrong.

I usually try to hide the fact that I'm taking a dump. I close the door. I liberally apply air-freshener when I'm done. I hope I'm not giving people the wrong impression.

 

OMFG, Mr Bedrock practices undisclosed dumping

 

Note to self, make sure to watch him closely should he asked to use my bathroom to "wash his hands"

[Moondog]

That's interesting, though...do you think that most people who crack out books, mail in the labels?

 

I've only cracked and (years later) re-subbed one book, and did indeed include the prior label.

 

Otherwise, I always keep the label with the de-slabbed book - if it ever leaves my possession, I want the new owner to have full disclosure (i.e., knowing CGC's take on the book) whether I agree with them or not.

 

I've purchased quite a few books that have been de-slabbed yet still have their label (my preferred method of buying, actually).

 

Exactly what I do, Steve.

 

[MasterChief]

Actually, there might be a simple, cost effective solution to improving the census tally that insures every future book graded or resubmitted would be recognized.

 

It involves placing a very small invisible ink stamp on the back cover of every CGC graded book that would fluoresce under a black light. Something like this (see the stamp, half way down) only much smaller...

 

http://www.fake-proof.com/

 

Each time a book was resubmitted it would receive a small ink stamp that would fluoresce a different color.

 

First, of course, any questions about marking valuable comics with invisible ink would need to be addressed, but if these issues are resolvable I foresee secondary advantages to improving the census, such as the ability to track valuable books that are stolen, cracked out and resold, etc.

 

The link above is just a site I quickly researched while considering this idea; other sites which discuss watermarking valuables with invisible ink may go into greater detail and discuss the pros and cons. It does seem like an interesting idea though.

 

Opinions?

 

I think if you do a search, it's been brought up before, and suggestions were also made that the mark be on the centerfold.

 

I like it because of the theft aspect,but I'm wondering how people who love very high grade books would feel OR people who want to press books and not disclose the fact that they were pressed..

It has indeed been discussed here, but a lot of people went ballistic at the idea of even a microdot of invisible ink being put on their comics.

 

Here's a deep search for invisible ink.

 

But don't expect CGC to break out the black light anytime soon.

 

That's unless things have changed since then...

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=15239#Post15239

 

 

 

[MasterChief]

When I said I had a book that was the highest graded copy, it was Hit 3, I own the 6.5 (blue). When I had it graded, the next highest copy was a 4.0 (blue).

 

Either last year, or the year before, I don't remember, one sold on the boards, I seem to remember it being a 5.0.

 

There is no 5.0 listed, but there is an 8.5 (blue). I have no idea if the 5.0 was pressed into an 8.5 and the label submitted, but if it was not, and it's still around, it's still not on the census.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4603262

 

You are spot on. (thumbs u

 

CGC never certified a 5.0 copy.

 

The book you are referring to is either the 4.0 or 3.0 copy.

 

Being that the book bears an old certification label it is recorded as entering the census on July 1, 2001.

 

Here is a quick visual of the HC#3 certified books going back to day one...

 

 

 

 

[MasterChief]

I certainly didn't toss the label...never tossed a single one in the garbage in my whole life. But I did just confirm with CGC that the book was taken off the census. They couldn't tell me when, but probably shortly after the book was regraded.

 

(thumbs u

 

That's good to know Matt, because at the time, I got the impression (obviously wrong from what you are saying here) that you were not submitting all of them. I didn't really care about any others or the sanctity of the census at the time, so it was not terribly important to me.

 

So, now that we know you do submit ...do you do ALL of them eventually?

 

We'll just have to wonder about all the non professional restorers/pressers, who don't submit labels because they don't want to disclose what they are doing, or don't care about the census...

 

 

It's been 7 years since this book got the treatment. The original copy is still in the census.

 

So perhaps a reminder to the responsible restoration professional is in order...

 

Send in the label, Shipmate!

 

It'll help to keep you honest.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=640741#Post640741

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nearmint]

When I said I had a book that was the highest graded copy, it was Hit 3, I own the 6.5 (blue). When I had it graded, the next highest copy was a 4.0 (blue).

 

Either last year, or the year before, I don't remember, one sold on the boards, I seem to remember it being a 5.0.

 

There is no 5.0 listed, but there is an 8.5 (blue). I have no idea if the 5.0 was pressed into an 8.5 and the label submitted, but if it was not, and it's still around, it's still not on the census.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4603262

 

You are spot on. (thumbs u

 

CGC never certified a 5.0 copy.

 

The book you are referring to is either the 4.0 or 3.0 copy.

 

Being that the book bears an old certification label it is recorded as entering the census on July 1, 2001.

 

Here is a quick visual of the HC#3 certified books going back to day one...

 

 

 

 

No, it's not the 3.0 or 4.0 copy. Both of those books are in the Heritage archive, and are clearly different copies than the 5.0 that Michael sold Stan here on the boards last February.

[Flex Mentallo]

No way this presses up to an 8.5 - or at all IMHO!

 

 

 

[Flex Mentallo]

No idea why this is not on the census however - unless Stan unpacked the book and had it deleted?

 

[Matt Nelson]

I certainly didn't toss the label...never tossed a single one in the garbage in my whole life. But I did just confirm with CGC that the book was taken off the census. They couldn't tell me when, but probably shortly after the book was regraded.

 

(thumbs u

 

That's good to know Matt, because at the time, I got the impression (obviously wrong from what you are saying here) that you were not submitting all of them. I didn't really care about any others or the sanctity of the census at the time, so it was not terribly important to me.

 

So, now that we know you do submit ...do you do ALL of them eventually?

 

We'll just have to wonder about all the non professional restorers/pressers, who don't submit labels because they don't want to disclose what they are doing, or don't care about the census...but those people are probably mostly involved in newer books. There seem to be more and more people talking about pressing their own books every day...

 

I think I'll just take the info from Gerber, Overstreet and the Census, toss it up in the air see which lands closet to my chair and guess about scarcity;)

 

and ask Bedrock;)

 

Yes, that was what I mentioned in the prior post. All tags go back to CGC eventually. Maybe not with the book when submitted, but certainly afterwards.

 

I think we're pretty well insulated from the census being wrecked. Most people are too scared to touch their more expensive comics, so they have them pressed by a pro who turns the tags in. And those who do their own pressing mostly stick to cheaper books, and I'm guessing the majority of those are raw to begin with. Even if they're cracking out modern/bronze and not turning the labels in, they'd have to hold an awful lot back to affect the high census numbers on those kind of books.

 

Another thing we don't have to deal with in comics right now is cross grading. Cards and coins have had many different grading companies, so cross grading leads to a whole other level of the crackout game, involving a lot more people, some of which probably don't care about the census.

 

Not to mention comic grading didn't start until the internet was rolling, which allowed the creation of a community that is very vocal in their concerns. Coin grading went through almost 15 years without that. Cards I think ten years.

[Matt Nelson]

I certainly didn't toss the label...never tossed a single one in the garbage in my whole life. But I did just confirm with CGC that the book was taken off the census. They couldn't tell me when, but probably shortly after the book was regraded.

 

(thumbs u

 

That's good to know Matt, because at the time, I got the impression (obviously wrong from what you are saying here) that you were not submitting all of them. I didn't really care about any others or the sanctity of the census at the time, so it was not terribly important to me.

 

So, now that we know you do submit ...do you do ALL of them eventually?

 

We'll just have to wonder about all the non professional restorers/pressers, who don't submit labels because they don't want to disclose what they are doing, or don't care about the census...

 

 

It's been 7 years since this book got the treatment. The original copy is still in the census.

 

So perhaps a reminder to the responsible restoration professional is in order...

 

Send in the label, Shipmate!

 

It'll help to keep you honest.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=640741#Post640741

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe Jeff has the label. I don't. You should ask him.

 

How many more have you found that haven't been taken off the census?

[skypinkblu]

No idea why this is not on the census however - unless Stan unpacked the book and had it deleted?

 

 

It was not on the census the day you sold it to him, I checked, so I don't think it was taken off because it was cracked out.

 

I had just finished telling Stan, that my book was the highest copy at 6.5, and the next highest was 4.0 when this one showed up in the marketplace. I had just checked the census, I checked it the year before when I was in Chicago and showing it to Steve B, AND I checked it when you had it in the sales thread.

 

I have the PM where Stan and I were discussing the books somewhere, but it would take me too long to find it, he probably remembers.

 

So, since it's an old label and it was not ON the census...maybe they are inputted manually and an error was made? :shrug:

[Ze-man]

 

So, since it's an old label and it was not ON the census...maybe they are inputted manually and an error was made? :shrug:[/color]

 

I imagine that is exactly what happened, same as with Jeff's Americas Best not being taken off?

CGC is human, and obviously over the years some labels that were returned, never get removed from the Census. And some books that were slabbed, were incorrectly entered into the census.

 

A quick phone call to CGC or Matt to correct discrepancies can only help make the census as accurate as possible.

 

And regarding Matt returning old CGC labels. I am glad to see he cleared up the issue of tossing your old label. Because as long as I have known him he has always kept every label in a box, to return them to CGC.

 

Years ago on my first visit to train under Matt I was sitting in his studio while he was on the phone with a client. I was nosing around his desk looking through all the comics and saw a box of old CGC labels on a shelf. Later when I asked him what they were, he said that was the box of all the cracked slab labels that were going back to CGC. Said he sent them back in batches to make it easier.

 

Now over the years I am sure that some get misplaced, or lost in the shuffle, stuff happens. Books clients crack out at Matts desk at a Con for instance. But for the most part I think Matt does a really good job of trying to return everything he cracks out.

 

 

[Matt Nelson]

If I've lost any labels over the years, it has to be enough to count on only two hands. And they were likely cheap books. Labels to books like Superman #1, AF #15 I keep very close track of.

[Ze-man]

If I've lost any labels over the years, it has to be enough to count on only two hands. And they were likely cheap books. Labels to books like Superman #1, AF #15 I keep very close track of.

 

 

I'm just glad to hear you are not mad I was nosing around your desk!!

 

[MasterChief]

I certainly didn't toss the label...never tossed a single one in the garbage in my whole life. But I did just confirm with CGC that the book was taken off the census. They couldn't tell me when, but probably shortly after the book was regraded.

 

(thumbs u

 

That's good to know Matt, because at the time, I got the impression (obviously wrong from what you are saying here) that you were not submitting all of them. I didn't really care about any others or the sanctity of the census at the time, so it was not terribly important to me.

 

So, now that we know you do submit ...do you do ALL of them eventually?

 

We'll just have to wonder about all the non professional restorers/pressers, who don't submit labels because they don't want to disclose what they are doing, or don't care about the census...

 

 

It's been 7 years since this book got the treatment. The original copy is still in the census.

 

So perhaps a reminder to the responsible restoration professional is in order...

 

Send in the label, Shipmate!

 

It'll help to keep you honest.

 

 

Maybe Jeff has the label. I don't. You should ask him.

 

How many more have you found that haven't been taken off the census?

 

Thanks. But there's really no need to ask Jeff.

 

In that thread, Jeff stated that he didn't have the label... because you never sent it to him.

 

Take a lookie see in that old cardboard box Kenny peeked into.

 

Maybe that little buggers in there.

 

 

How many more have I found, you ask?

 

Why a whole freaking lot. GA books too!

 

If you send me your manipulation files I'll bounce them with the ol' Manufacture Gold database.

 

And collectively we'll right-size the sinking ship that is the CGC Census. (thumbs u