Action 5, CGC 9.4 blue on CLINK

[Cat-Man_America]

I'm not a lawyer, but I thnk it would make a fascinating court case. I wonder what a judge or jury would have to say about pressing being or not being restoration.

 

 

I'm not a lawyer either, but my guess is that expert testimony on both sides of the issue would probably result in a hung jury.

 

What would get the case overturned in a second trial is the presiding judge allowing in hearsay testimony from a duplicitous witness who failed to appear claiming a prior pressing engagement.

[lou_fine]

Are you really trying to convince me that it would be in the owner's best interest to let everybody potential bidder to know that this particular 9.4 Action #5 was in fact really nothing more than a regraded 8.5 Action #5 because it is in his best interest to maintain the integrity of the census?

 

Yes, I absolutely am trying to convince you that it is in the Action #5 9.4 owner's best interest to maintain the integrity of the census in this case.

 

I simply agree with damonwad's statement that it's better to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 7.0 than it is to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 8.5.

 

+1 (thumbs u That's a very sound, common sense perspective, IMO.

 

I would most definitely agree that it would be in the best interest of the new owner that the 8.5 copy be removed from the census as this is only common sense.

 

From the viewpoint of the seller however, who has the actual control of turning in the old label, leaving damming evidence for knowledgeable prospective bidders that his 9.4 copy which is now up for sale used to be nothing more than a 8.5 copy is not in his best interests as this is also nothing more than common sense.

 

Yes, it would make more financial sense for him to turn the label back into CGC after the book has been laundered, if he is interested in maintaining the integrity of the census, but definitely not before.

[lou_fine]

Hello,

 

In Borocks wild west days we were really trying to battle against restoration and sending alot of books to Susan for restoration checking. A few dealers/quasi-dealers were selling books without total disclosure, but I think more of the restoration was done even in the period before Steve was collecting.

 

I agree, when you re-submit a book after pressing, make sure that you take the old grade off the census. When you look on the census I don't think anyone needs to know what books have been upgraded, but for the sake of the accuracy of the census, take off the old grade.

 

Dwight;

 

There was no battle against restoration back in the 70's as restoration was seen as a good thing at the time and something that would add value to a book, similar to how pressing is viewed today. As a result, most dealers did not bother to disclose restoration at the time, using the same rationale that today's sellers feel they do not need to disclose pressing in today's market.

 

When market opinion changed on the benefits of restoration in the 80's, some of the dealers knowingly continued not to dislcose restoration, while some of the others may have done this unknowingly due to their inability to detect hidden restoration. I wonder how many dealers will bother to disclose pressing in the future if market opinion ever changed on this issue, similar to how it changed on restoration in the past.

 

I find it totally hypocritical that so many of today's CGC generation of collectors demonize yesterday's generation, while actively participating in the undisclosed manipulation of their own books.

[mysterio]

Are you really trying to convince me that it would be in the owner's best interest to let everybody potential bidder to know that this particular 9.4 Action #5 was in fact really nothing more than a regraded 8.5 Action #5 because it is in his best interest to maintain the integrity of the census?

 

Yes, I absolutely am trying to convince you that it is in the Action #5 9.4 owner's best interest to maintain the integrity of the census in this case.

 

I simply agree with damonwad's statement that it's better to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 7.0 than it is to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 8.5.

 

+1 (thumbs u That's a very sound, common sense perspective, IMO.

 

I would most definitely agree that it would be in the best interest of the new owner that the 8.5 copy be removed from the census as this is only common sense.

 

From the viewpoint of the seller however, who has the actual control of turning in the old label, leaving damming evidence for knowledgeable prospective bidders that his 9.4 copy which is now up for sale used to be nothing more than a 8.5 copy is not in his best interests as this is also nothing more than common sense.

 

Yes, it would make more financial sense for him to turn the label back into CGC after the book has been laundered, if he is interested in maintaining the integrity of the census, but definitely not before.

 

But if the new owner would like to see that 8.5 off the census, what incentive would the seller have to keep the book on? It would seem to me that whatever makes a buyer happy should make the seller happy as well.

 

If it were this easy for us to figure out it was the same book I doubt that this is some state secret that anyone else interested in the book couldn't figure out. Especially if they were preparing to open their wallet for it. Hell, a simple internet search would likely uncover this thread. One would think that that was a minimum level of due dilligence for researching a book of this caliber.

[nearmint]

Are you really trying to convince me that it would be in the owner's best interest to let everybody potential bidder to know that this particular 9.4 Action #5 was in fact really nothing more than a regraded 8.5 Action #5 because it is in his best interest to maintain the integrity of the census?

 

Yes, I absolutely am trying to convince you that it is in the Action #5 9.4 owner's best interest to maintain the integrity of the census in this case.

 

I simply agree with damonwad's statement that it's better to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 7.0 than it is to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 8.5.

 

+1 (thumbs u That's a very sound, common sense perspective, IMO.

 

I would most definitely agree that it would be in the best interest of the new owner that the 8.5 copy be removed from the census as this is only common sense.

 

From the viewpoint of the seller however, who has the actual control of turning in the old label, leaving damming evidence for knowledgeable prospective bidders that his 9.4 copy which is now up for sale used to be nothing more than a 8.5 copy is not in his best interests as this is also nothing more than common sense.

 

Yes, it would make more financial sense for him to turn the label back into CGC after the book has been laundered, if he is interested in maintaining the integrity of the census, but definitely not before.

 

But if the new owner would like to see that 8.5 off the census, what incentive would the seller have to keep the book on? It would seem to me that whatever makes a buyer happy should make the seller happy as well.

 

If it were this easy for us to figure out it was the same book I doubt that this is some state secret that anyone else interested in the book couldn't figure out. Especially if they were preparing to open their wallet for it. Hell, a simple internet search would likely uncover this thread. One would think that that was a minimum level of due dilligence for researching a book of this caliber.

 

The 9.4 is the single highest graded copy. That's the biggest factor in the final hammer price. The grade of the 2nd highest graded copy is practically irrelevant. I'm sure the 8.5 label will be submitted after the auction is over.

[Cat-Man_America]

Are you really trying to convince me that it would be in the owner's best interest to let everybody potential bidder to know that this particular 9.4 Action #5 was in fact really nothing more than a regraded 8.5 Action #5 because it is in his best interest to maintain the integrity of the census?

 

Yes, I absolutely am trying to convince you that it is in the Action #5 9.4 owner's best interest to maintain the integrity of the census in this case.

 

I simply agree with damonwad's statement that it's better to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 7.0 than it is to be the owner of the 9.4 with the next best thing on the census being a 8.5.

 

+1 (thumbs u That's a very sound, common sense perspective, IMO.

 

I would most definitely agree that it would be in the best interest of the new owner that the 8.5 copy be removed from the census as this is only common sense.

 

From the viewpoint of the seller however, who has the actual control of turning in the old label, leaving damming evidence for knowledgeable prospective bidders that his 9.4 copy which is now up for sale used to be nothing more than a 8.5 copy is not in his best interests as this is also nothing more than common sense.

 

Yes, it would make more financial sense for him to turn the label back into CGC after the book has been laundered, if he is interested in maintaining the integrity of the census, but definitely not before.

 

But if the new owner would like to see that 8.5 off the census, what incentive would the seller have to keep the book on? It would seem to me that whatever makes a buyer happy should make the seller happy as well.

 

If it were this easy for us to figure out it was the same book I doubt that this is some state secret that anyone else interested in the book couldn't figure out. Especially if they were preparing to open their wallet for it. Hell, a simple internet search would likely uncover this thread. One would think that that was a minimum level of due dilligence for researching a book of this caliber.

 

The 9.4 is the single highest graded copy. That's the biggest factor in the final hammer price. The grade of the 2nd highest graded copy is practically irrelevant. I'm sure the 8.5 label will be submitted after the auction is over.

 

True, the grade of the non-existant 8.5 is practically irrelevant in respect to the final hammer price of the 9.4. However, it may not be irrelevant to the owner of 7.0, who for all intent and purpose has the second highest graded unrestored copy, but can't officially claim it.

[sfcityduck]

Comics will not be fully mature as a hobby until dealers and collectors can distinguish between "conservation" and "restoration."

 

My prediction is that ultimately the marketplace will accept pressing and non-destructive cleaning (and, perhaps changing out or cleaning of oxidized staples and adding tear seals) as "conservation," and the term "restoration," with the negatives that implies, will be limited to invasive practices like adding color, adding pieces, destructive cleaning, trimming, etc.

 

 

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

Comics will not be fully mature as a hobby until dealers and collectors can distinguish between "conservation" and "restoration."

 

My prediction is that ultimately the marketplace will accept pressing and non-destructive cleaning (and, perhaps changing out or cleaning of oxidized staples and adding tear seals) as "conservation," and the term "restoration," with the negatives that implies, will be limited to invasive practices like adding color, adding pieces, destructive cleaning, trimming, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

The only reason that I mentioned unrestored 7.0 is because there is an 8.0 listed in the restored category. That book is impacted as well by the erroneous 8.5 census listing as it would technically be the second highest graded copy regardless of label.

 

I agree with you that redefining restoration and conservation techniques with an eye toward revamping the labeling system isn't a bad idea, but I think that this topic moves a little afield of what we're discussing in this thread.

 

My point in the remarks above is that an incorrect top tier official census listing (non-existant 8.5) is probably going to drive the perceived value of the next books in line down; I can't see how that doesn't have a negative impact on those owners.

[cheetah]

I wonder what kInd of b00b it would take to slap down the money this book will fetch without knowing it had the potential to be pressed.

 

And if it was a big deal to the buyer, you would think they would ask. Heck, a simple google would find this thread.

[adamstrange]

I wonder what kInd of b00b it would take to slap down the money this book will fetch without knowing it had the potential to be pressed.

 

And if it was a big deal to the buyer, you would think they would ask. Heck, a simple google would find this thread.

 

The guy with $150k sitting around almost certainly lacks the time to do such a search. You are clearly have no empathy for this temporally challenged individual when you should have compassion.

[cheetah]

Folks with $150k sitting around that don't do research usually don't have $150 sitting around.

 

If you understand what I'm saying.

[adamstrange]

I did.

 

It was a joke.

[cheetah]

Was the 8.5 copy ever involved in a sale after being graded?

[mysterio]

It was auctioned somelace, Clink maybe, as that was where I got the pic I posted earlier in the thread.

[lou_fine]

It was auctioned somelace, Clink maybe, as that was where I got the pic I posted earlier in the thread.

 

Amy idea as to the price that the 8.5 copy of Action #5 was able to sell for?

[Flex Mentallo]

I did.

 

It was a joke.

 

That'll teach you to be witty around here mister!

[lou_fine]

Flippers are much more concerned with laundering a book to maximize their profit as opposed to maintaining the accuracy of the CGC census. I don't see why you think they would have any incentive at all to worry about the census when money is their primary concern.

 

Folks who flip books aren't laundering anything IMO, well, pressing and dry cleaning maybe, but the word laundering leaves the impression of criminality, which isn't what I think you meant.

 

Yes, you are correct! (thumbs u

 

My earlier use of the term "flippers" was not correct as I was really referring to buyers who purchase books, surreptitiously manipulate them, and then resell them without any disclosure even though the work that was done is legally okay from CGC's point of view.

 

I use the word laundering because their very behaviour leaves the impression that is exactly what they are doing as evident by Jeff's comment below:

 

. I'm sure the 8.5 label will be submitted after the auction is over.

 

Since it's actually okay to press and resubmit books according to CGC, then I don't understand why they simply don't turn in the label at the time of resub, instead of waiting until the auction is over. This key difference in timing leaves the impression that the seller himself believes that what he is doing is not totally above board and honest. If he felt what he was doing is okay, shouldn't he also have the balls to MANNUP and turn in the old label up front instead of waiting until the auction is over.

 

 

And BTW, I'm not letting CGC off the hook on this. Books that are cracked out and resubmitted (especially high grade GA books that have unique identifiers) should be caught by CGC regardless of the end grade.

 

I am not sure what you mean by your comment that these books should be caught by CGC. Are you implying that resubmissions should be flagged by CGC and marked accordingly? This would go against CGC's business model as their grading standards and grading practices have been formulated to encourage resubmissions. To do anything that would discourage resubmissions would not make any economic and/or business sense to them.

 

[G.A.tor]

It was auctioned somelace, Clink maybe, as that was where I got the pic I posted earlier in the thread.

 

Amy idea as to the price that the 8.5 copy of Action #5 was able to sell for?

Didn't it hit like 50k

[Sardo Numspar]

O'Mealia was such a talent. Simple, great lines, the epitome of golden age.

[cheetah]

It was auctioned someplace, Clink maybe, as that was where I got the pic I posted earlier in the thread.

 

Amy idea as to the price that the 8.5 copy of Action #5 was able to sell for?

Didn't it hit like 50k

 

With the way the industry operates right now, you've got to wonder why someone didn't have it pressed before the sold it as an 8.5. They left a lot of money on the table.