Is CGC good for comics?

[Murph]

These people don't think in that fashion. They'd rather scapegoat, and the easiest target is CGC. The concept of bidders providing the market for this stuff means nothing to them, all that is seen is CGC high grades going for huge prices and pricing them out.. therefore, CGC is the devil.

 

Brian

[FFB]

Well, now that you've guilted me into signing up for yet ANOTHER comic forum, I have voted and responded to that thread.

 

All I can say is shame on those of you who support CGC and have looked at the poll and not voted against this fellow's wild accusations.

 

I find it hard to believe that 85% or more of the people that post here feel that CGC is bad for the industry.... oops... he edited the title .... bad for comics.

[goldust40]

These people don't think in that fashion. They'd rather scapegoat, and the easiest target is CGC. The concept of bidders providing the market for this stuff means nothing to them, all that is seen is CGC high grades going for huge prices and pricing them out.. therefore, CGC is the devil.

 

Brian

 

I agree that CGC cannot be blamed for fostering greed within the marketplace - it's always been there. Once people noticed the premiums for encapsulated books, that effectively meant that the market was going to be irrevocably changed, both in terms of liquidity and pace.

 

However CGC has advertised their product as a means of increasing profit in the pages of CBG and elsewhere. So they do deserve a portion of the blame.

[OldGuy]

Crack slab.......remove label......send to cgc so they can remove from the book from the census? Right?

 

I hold my lables hostage. As soon as CGC wants to pay for them I'll send them in.

[sterlingcomics]

Crack slab.......remove label......send to cgc so they can remove from the book from the census? Right?

 

I hold my lables hostage. As soon as CGC wants to pay for them I'll send them in.

 

That's a good point. There's very little incentive CGC has built in to help the community keep the CGC census accurate. Outside of the whopping $5 when you recertify a book, that's about it...

[sterlingcomics]

Given the state of the hobby BEFORE CGC, I'd still say there's still fewer points of contention, although I won't argue in the inconstencies you've mentioned. Communication from CGC is a double-edged sword--it can create increased buyer's confidence, while, at the same time, expose some of the grading inaccuracies that occur from time to time because of the subjective nature of the task.

[deathlok]

Crack slab.......remove label......send to cgc so they can remove from the book from the census? Right?

 

I hold my lables hostage. As soon as CGC wants to pay for them I'll send them in.

 

That's a good point. There's very little incentive CGC has built in to help the community keep the CGC census accurate. Outside of the whopping $5 when you recertify a book, that's about it...

 

In five or ten years it may become very difficult to tell if the census is correct or if it's over-inflated by resubmissions.

[Murph]

However CGC has advertised their product as a means of increasing profit in the pages of CBG and elsewhere. So they do deserve a portion of the blame.

 

Again, people need to understand that companies advertise positive aspects of their business in order to attract more business. In the like that you don't see Cadillac advertising the fact that their vehicle line depreciates more quickly than almost any other luxury brand on the market. You won't see CGC advertising that ultra high grade books are in fact itsy bitsy deviations between 9.8-9.9-10.0 or that a 9.8 of Captain Carrot 1 nets one a loss of 10 dollars after cost of grading. To blame someone for advertising what does in fact happen (PRIOR to them even advertising it I might add) seems to me like playing the blame game. In the end the people who make the price are the buyers. If it's worth 100 dollars to them, it's going to be worth 100 dollars to them regardless of what an ad says.

 

Brian

[sterlingcomics]

Crack slab.......remove label......send to cgc so they can remove from the book from the census? Right?

 

I hold my lables hostage. As soon as CGC wants to pay for them I'll send them in.

 

That's a good point. There's very little incentive CGC has built in to help the community keep the CGC census accurate. Outside of the whopping $5 when you recertify a book, that's about it...

 

In five or ten years it may become very difficult to tell if the census is correct or if it's over-inflated by resubmissions.

 

I don't think we have to wait--the innacuracy is already here--but it is out of CGC's hands at this point. They could provide an incentive (credit account, etc) for each submitted label. It's an obvious balance between accuracy and cash flow for the biz.

[goldust40]

However CGC has advertised their product as a means of increasing profit in the pages of CBG and elsewhere. So they do deserve a portion of the blame.

 

Again, people need to understand that companies advertise positive aspects of their business in order to attract more business. In the like that you don't see Cadillac advertising the fact that their vehicle line depreciates more quickly than almost any other luxury brand on the market. You won't see CGC advertising that ultra high grade books are in fact itsy bitsy deviations between 9.8-9.9-10.0 or that a 9.8 of Captain Carrot 1 nets one a loss of 10 dollars after cost of grading. To blame someone for advertising what does in fact happen (PRIOR to them even advertising it I might add) seems to me like playing the blame game. In the end the people who make the price are the buyers. If it's worth 100 dollars to them, it's going to be worth 100 dollars to them regardless of what an ad says.

 

Brian

 

I think I'm aware of how marketing works, Brian.

 

Anyway, far from playing the blame game, I was merely pointing out that with the word "hobby" being bandied about, that CGC have never, as someone previously mentioned, highlighted the benefits they provide for the long term collector - restoration checks, archivally sound holders, etc.

 

At the end of the day, as you correctly pointed out, the buyers dictate most of the market, and are responsible for the current bullish state of affairs. All I was suggesting was that CGC have played up to this already established aspect of the collecting body. This isn't apportioning blame, but merely pointing out the complicity on CGC's part. It's a business, as you (and many others) have repeatedly said - so they have every right to do this.

 

But it's got nothing to do with the "hobby", and everything to do with the "marketplace".

[OldGuy]

Crack slab.......remove label......send to cgc so they can remove from the book from the census? Right?

 

I hold my lables hostage. As soon as CGC wants to pay for them I'll send them in.

 

That's a good point. There's very little incentive CGC has built in to help the community keep the CGC census accurate. Outside of the whopping $5 when you recertify a book, that's about it...

 

With all the labels I have I could get some books graded for free at $5 a label credit..........

[sborock]

However CGC has advertised their product as a means of increasing profit in the pages of CBG and elsewhere. So they do deserve a portion of the blame.

 

Again, people need to understand that companies advertise positive aspects of their business in order to attract more business. In the like that you don't see Cadillac advertising the fact that their vehicle line depreciates more quickly than almost any other luxury brand on the market. You won't see CGC advertising that ultra high grade books are in fact itsy bitsy deviations between 9.8-9.9-10.0 or that a 9.8 of Captain Carrot 1 nets one a loss of 10 dollars after cost of grading. To blame someone for advertising what does in fact happen (PRIOR to them even advertising it I might add) seems to me like playing the blame game. In the end the people who make the price are the buyers. If it's worth 100 dollars to them, it's going to be worth 100 dollars to them regardless of what an ad says.

 

Brian

 

I think I'm aware of how marketing works, Brian.

 

Anyway, far from playing the blame game, I was merely pointing out that with the word "hobby" being bandied about, that CGC have never, as someone previously mentioned, highlighted the benefits they provide for the long term collector - restoration checks, archivally sound holders, etc.

 

At the end of the day, as you correctly pointed out, the buyers dictate most of the market, and are responsible for the current bullish state of affairs. All I was suggesting was that CGC have played up to this already established aspect of the collecting body. This isn't apportioning blame, but merely pointing out the complicity on CGC's part. It's a business, as you (and many others) have repeatedly said - so they have every right to do this.

 

But it's got nothing to do with the "hobby", and everything to do with the "marketplace".

 

This is 100% UNTRUE

 

Most of our ads state our impartial grading, restoration check and state-of-the-art holder. Please look at EVERY Overstreet guide we have advertised in. This year it is pages 18 &19. We have done many GREAT things for this Hobby, I would not be associated with CGC otherwise. We have chased out many crooks, exposed other's, made ebay MUCH safer, leveled the playing field for collector's, indirectly kept the prices of most low to mid grade and restored books at very reasonable prices, a chat board that has brought many collector's together and let them learn from each other while speaking their minds even about CGC, and many other things.

 

All that said, CGC is a business and needs to make money to do all these things. We try very hard to keep our feet planted both in the industry and the hobby

[goldust40]

However CGC has advertised their product as a means of increasing profit in the pages of CBG and elsewhere. So they do deserve a portion of the blame.

 

Again, people need to understand that companies advertise positive aspects of their business in order to attract more business. In the like that you don't see Cadillac advertising the fact that their vehicle line depreciates more quickly than almost any other luxury brand on the market. You won't see CGC advertising that ultra high grade books are in fact itsy bitsy deviations between 9.8-9.9-10.0 or that a 9.8 of Captain Carrot 1 nets one a loss of 10 dollars after cost of grading. To blame someone for advertising what does in fact happen (PRIOR to them even advertising it I might add) seems to me like playing the blame game. In the end the people who make the price are the buyers. If it's worth 100 dollars to them, it's going to be worth 100 dollars to them regardless of what an ad says.

 

Brian

 

I think I'm aware of how marketing works, Brian.

 

Anyway, far from playing the blame game, I was merely pointing out that with the word "hobby" being bandied about, that CGC have never, as someone previously mentioned, highlighted the benefits they provide for the long term collector - restoration checks, archivally sound holders, etc.

 

At the end of the day, as you correctly pointed out, the buyers dictate most of the market, and are responsible for the current bullish state of affairs. All I was suggesting was that CGC have played up to this already established aspect of the collecting body. This isn't apportioning blame, but merely pointing out the complicity on CGC's part. It's a business, as you (and many others) have repeatedly said - so they have every right to do this.

 

But it's got nothing to do with the "hobby", and everything to do with the "marketplace".

 

This is 100% UNTRUE

 

Most of our ads state our impartial grading, restoration check and state-of-the-art holder. Please look at EVERY Overstreet guide we have advertised in. This year it is pages 18 &19. We have done many GREAT things for this Hobby, I would not be associated with CGC otherwise. We have chased out many crooks, exposed other's, made ebay MUCH safer, leveled the playing field for collector's, indirectly kept the prices of most low to mid grade and restored books at very reasonable prices, a chat board that has brought many collector's together and let them learn from each other while speaking their minds even about CGC, and many other things.

 

All that said, CGC is a business and needs to make money to do all these things. We try very hard to keep our feet planted both in the industry and the hobby

 

I stand corrected, and shall now go off and eat humble pie (I just checked pages 18 and 19 of OS).

[deathlok]

Crack slab.......remove label......send to cgc so they can remove from the book from the census? Right?

 

I hold my lables hostage. As soon as CGC wants to pay for them I'll send them in.

 

That's a good point. There's very little incentive CGC has built in to help the community keep the CGC census accurate. Outside of the whopping $5 when you recertify a book, that's about it...

 

In five or ten years it may become very difficult to tell if the census is correct or if it's over-inflated by resubmissions.

 

I don't think we have to wait--the innacuracy is already here--but it is out of CGC's hands at this point. They could provide an incentive (credit account, etc) for each submitted label. It's an obvious balance between accuracy and cash flow for the biz.

 

I don't think this is true across the board. While their are certainly errors in the census, I would think at least 80% is still accurate.

[valiantman]

While there are certainly errors in the census, I would think at least 80% is still accurate.

It's probably closer to 98% accurate.

 

Just because a book is removed from the holder,

that really doesn't affect the census at all.

 

If that book is SOLD as ungraded, then re-submitted... it would be a census duplicate.

 

But people who are "unslabbing" their books aren't generally selling them as "raw".

 

The only errors introduced to the census are from people re-submitting their books,

and winding up with two labels for the same book after they've re-submitted.

If there are two CGC labels that belong to the same book, that's a problem.

 

As long as there is only one label for one book, it doesn't really matter if it's slabbed,

loose, or lost.

 

At any rate, the CGC census is telling you how many are slabbed "at the most".

If there are 100 of some book in CGC 9.4, then there are no more than 100 still slabbed.

There could be 99 still slabbed, or 90, or 50... but there aren't 101.

[jbud73]

Lots of good points being bantered about on this one. But the statement, "Is CGC good for comics?" How do you qualify that? Its such and intangible thing, from whos perspective? I guess some random thoughts.

 

- CGC will make you money if you know how to grade, it will make you even more money if you have and understanding of how CGC grades. There are many board members who can attest to this. Plainly if you can recognize RAW talent and have a good handle on the comic marketplace $$$ are in your future. WHY? Well because there are ppl out there who dont know how to grade and do not have a good grasp on the pulse of the marketplace - so it costs them more $$$ for the same books.

 

- I do believe that CGC warps the marketplace. This is the biggest problem occurs because slabbed speculations are often trumpted up based on total comics out there and not total CGC slabs. This is often a blatant misrepresentation of a comic book. For example. the famous Ebay TOP CENSUS NONE BETTER!!! (even if there are 40 in the same grade - my personal pet peeve). Well what does this really mean??? Well whats implied here is that there are NO COPIES of "X" book in better grade than the book in question. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE, all that can be said in this situation is that there are no graded books that have achieved a higher score FROM CGC TO DATE . When we understand the flaws in the census itself, resubs etc. Plus the fact that I still believe that a very small percentage of the overall books in existence have been graded - then it is easy to see how misleading this statement really is. But it still drives up the marketplace day in and day out. This is why I agree with alot of Gene's arguement because when you understand the fact that the market speculation in 85% or more of the hobby right now is based on misrepresented scarcity then you realize the potential disaster.

 

- For the average collector. I think I fit the category farely closely. Lets see:

 

About 10,000 books 20% SA 30% BA 50% 80s+

Own 26 CGC books.

My sell buy ratio is about 90% buy 10% sell in the past 3 years

I spent approximately $4,000 to $8,000 on comics a year including new stuff supplies etc.

I hit an average of 2 conventions a year.

 

So how has CGC effected my experience as a collector in the hobby? Well I like the fact that some of my higher price books for example X-men 3,10, Cap 100, Batman 200 ASM 300 WWBN 32 DK 1 ASM 101 etc can be encapsulated within the CGC holder.

 

- I have agreed with their grading more or less within a half grade either way.

- The turnaround times are attrocious and customer service for $$$ value received is about average. Sorry Steve in some areas you guys rock in other areas you are getting rocked, or turning a blind eye.

 

- I have noticed that it is getting harder to find books above 9.2 for resonable prices and this is magnified for key books.

 

- I have been priced out of the market on some books that are not available in raw HG easily and are way out there slabbed. Put it this way I would never have gotten my X-men 3 for anywhere near the price purchased just 2.5 short years ago. It would most likely been a slabbed book now for 30% more than the price realized.

 

- Wizard 1st is a joke and has at its heart the bottom line rather than the hobby as a whole. On this I have yet to be swayed. Even though it doesnt effect me I still take issue with the thinking behind it.

 

- Ppl can say well ya the market has increased but that great look at the value of your collection arent you happy?? What these ppl fail to realize is this I think the true collector does not see their collection primarily in terms of value as they do in terms of cost. It cost me X dollars to but that. Its going to cost me X dollars to get that. WHY, because thinking in terms of value is tied to selling and for the most part I just dont conceptualize primarliy in that fashion. Selling is down the road if ever, cost is a month to month thing for the comic collector.

 

- Lou Fine brought up the fact that CGC would be great if they stuck to certain books HG BA and most SA GA. While I agree with this in spirit, I can also understand how its not exactly cost effective. There isnt enough revenue in it to make it attractive to a grading company. So at the end of the day, its how much can we as collectors sustain to turn a bling eye to all the benefits CGC has done for the hobby.

 

- There are positives and negatives in the end. CGC has taken the hobby in new directions, hopefully they continue to take steps towards consistency and reliabilty and clean up some of problems that have been flushed out. I guess I agree with Garth, the juries still out there and we are watching you big brother.

[Silver Surfer]

CGC is great because:

 

- This forum is awesome. I have learned a lot and have shared a common joy for comics and have seen issues I probably would never come across in a lifetime.

- As a buyer it gives me great confidence in what I'm buying.

- As a seller it provides excellent liquidity.

- I think if another 50 years went by and there wasn't some form of official grading and way of preserving comics a lot of the stuff we see today would have only deteriorated at a much greater rate. So as far as perserving these treasures for the next generation I think this is a great benefit.

 

Can't see how CGC is bad for comics in the long run. It has given new life and interest to this hobby. Sure it has increased prices but this is expected when the hobby is as red hot as it has ever been.

[deathlok]

While there are certainly errors in the census, I would think at least 80% is still accurate.

It's probably closer to 98% accurate.

 

Just because a book is removed from the holder,

that really doesn't affect the census at all.

 

If that book is SOLD as ungraded, then re-submitted... it would be a census duplicate.

 

But people who are "unslabbing" their books aren't generally selling them as "raw".

 

The only errors introduced to the census are from people re-submitting their books,

and winding up with two labels for the same book after they've re-submitted.

If there are two CGC labels that belong to the same book, that's a problem.

 

As long as there is only one label for one book, it doesn't really matter if it's slabbed,

loose, or lost.

 

At any rate, the CGC census is telling you how many are slabbed "at the most".

If there are 100 of some book in CGC 9.4, then there are no more than 100 still slabbed.

There could be 99 still slabbed, or 90, or 50... but there aren't 101.

 

that's what I was talking about. People who resubmit without turning in the original label. I would still stick with at least 80% accurate.

[sterlingcomics]

I don't think this is true across the board. While their are certainly errors in the census, I would think at least 80% is still accurate.

 

Well, so what's the threshold and expectations for accuracy? All I am saying is that there's no way to make the census 100% accurate. Valiantman's contributions duely noted--as he is the resident statistician on these matters.

[DiceX]

In the CBR thread linked in the first post...

Who is this "Coop" the people keep calling for?

It sort of reminds me of the movie Baseketball, where the little orphan kids are all in awe of the great and powerful "Coop".

 

Anyway...Back to your regularly scheduled thread.