Greg Capullo Original Art? 2 2

[comix4fun]

53 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

 

I'm waiting for Murphy's White Knight to come out in trade before reading it.  

I picked up a couple of the issues. Much Ado About Not as Much as Murphy Sold Us On......is as best as I can describe it. It's very self-aware that it's trying to be THE NEXT BIG BATMAN STORY. And it falls short for me on many levels. Some nice looking pages and small sequences, but as a whole it didn't work well. 

[Mr. Machismo]

1 hour ago, eewwnuk said:

The king run hits a great stride after i am gotham.  The recent series with catwoman has been particularly good.  Janins artwork in the series is very well done.

Snyders court was far and away the strongest of his run.  I agree some of the other books were a bit tough to get through were it not for capullos art.

That’s where I disagree. I’ve strongly disliked every single issue, both in writing and art. But again, just preference. Batman: Year 100 was brutal for me to get through as well, and that’s considered a classic. 

53 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

So, IIRC, Jock, Murphy, Rossmo and Janin each drew one issue that appeared in the 10 Capullo/Snyder trades, so, I'm basing my opinion there on a limited sample size.  It's entirely possible that, after reading/seeing more of their work, my preferences could change, as there were aspects of all of their art that I enjoyed.  

I'm waiting for Murphy's White Knight to come out in trade before reading it.  Any suggestions on what to read for the best of Jock on Batman/Tec/etc.?  

Ah, that’s totally fair. 

Jock’s key work is BLACK MIRROR, a psychological thriller I think you’ll be particularly fond of. Snyder’s first DC entry. There’s a NOIR edition if you’d like to read it in B&W.

Jock also did a short run of All Star Batman with Snyder, but I’d suggest skipping All Star Batman altogether.

I don’t know how you’ll feel about White Knight. I’d wager you’ll be critical with it, but I’d still recommend it. For me, I had a blast with it. The writing lacks finesse and it can sometimes be a bit loose, but it explores a lot of interesting and seemingly obvious (yet undone or under-explored) ideas. It is a bit self-aware, but it’s also refreshing and not bound to the rigidity of continuity. Where it lacks in story, like Hush, it makes up for in art. Murphy’s visuals are a unique blend of American, European, and Japanese influences, and he’s a master at visual storytelling and leading the eye.

While I don’t beleive White Knight is the next Dark Knight Returns, it’s ballsy in its own right and has received extreme praise among readers (outside the vocal minority on the boards here.) I do believe it will be a story DC pushes for sometime given it’s uniqueness and how well received it was amongst fans.

As a bit of a background, Murphy sold himself as the next Miller to DC, they bought into it, gave him a great rate and he wrote about ~5/8 full issues before they checked in on him. As a result, he got away with doing a lot that DC would normally not approve. They refer to his world as the Murphyverse and may bring certain components into continuity dependent on receptivity. It was a test of sorts for the new Black Label line (self-contained, risqué DC stories), succeeded with ample reprints while going head-to-head with Metal, and two more volumes are “allegedly” planned. It is now the first Black Label book. 

Regarding the original art, there was a lot of criticism surrounding its pricing (justifiably so.) Funny enough, all the good pieces have already sold! Shocking even to me, having so much of it. 

[SquareChaos]

For me, White Knight just isn't worth reading due to the awful storytelling... but of course every person will have some amount of subjectivity there. Though I do believe that even art (speaking of the general art of comics, more than the 'art' on the page) can have qualities that are objectively bad... White Knight skirted that line for me. I was unable to power through and actually continue past the third issue. The art on the page was OK, but I personally don't like Murphy on Batman the more Murphy on Batman that I've seen... which is somewhat odd, as I've liked his work on titles like Joe the Barbarian and Tokyo Ghost quite a bit.

[delekkerste]

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

That’s where I disagree. I’ve strongly disliked every single issue, both in writing and art. But again, just preference. Batman: Year 100 was brutal for me to get through as well, and that’s considered a classic. 

Coincidentally, I just read Year 100 for the first time a couple of weeks ago myself.  I liked the art more than the story, which starts out with an intriguing premise but ultimately follows a pretty conventional path and leaves many questions unanswered.  I was relieved, though, after seeing all the crazy art from this series with Batman's mouth full of sharp teeth, to find out that the teeth were fake and just used as an intimidation device!  

 

[Mr. Machismo]

11 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

For me, White Knight just isn't worth reading due to the awful storytelling... but of course every person will have some amount of subjectivity there. Though I do believe that even art (speaking of the general art of comics, more than the 'art' on the page) can have qualities that are objectively bad... White Knight skirted that line for me. I was unable to power through and actually continue past the third issue. The art on the page was OK, but I personally don't like Murphy on Batman the more Murphy on Batman that I've seen... which is somewhat odd, as I've liked his work on titles like Joe the Barbarian and Tokyo Ghost quite a bit.

If you think White Knight art is [objectively] bad, that reveals a deep lack of understanding when it comes to art. The amount of artists that appreciate and study Murphy’s work on Batman (and particularly Capullo, for that instance) is staggering. These are trained professionals with a developed eye; people who’s collective opinions are the closest measure of objectivity we have. Doesn’t hurt that the fans went wild for it, too  

I’m all for difference of opinion and personal preferences when it comes to art appreciation, it just raises an eyebrow when someone’s use of “objective” unequivocally defines “subjective.” Lol. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Mr. Machismo

[JadeGiant]

12 hours ago, comix4fun said:

The stories really suffer when consumed in TPB form and multiple volumes at a sitting. The later stories suffer in the comparison to the the first two volumes for sure.

I felt exactly as you did, because that is how I consumed the stories. I bought the first 4 TPBs and read them all at once....1 and 2 were like "WOW", but it plummeted for me after that point. 

 

I read the first 2 TPB for the Court stories. Not a big Bsts fan, I did pick them up based on all the hype I was hearing. I have not picked up anything since and don't feel inclined after hearing the take(s) from Chris and Gene. 

 

Question: if I were to pick up another Batman arc, what would be the most suggested after Court? Sounds like the Halloween arc?

[JadeGiant]

12 hours ago, comix4fun said:

I picked up a couple of the issues. Much Ado About Not as Much as Murphy Sold Us On......is as best as I can describe it. It's very self-aware that it's trying to be THE NEXT BIG BATMAN STORY. And it falls short for me on many levels. Some nice looking pages and small sequences, but as a whole it didn't work well. 

 

I don't find the Murphy visuals good enough to pick up the stories on the merits of the art alone. I also don't like the way he is trying to tout himself in the history of Batman art. These alone will keep me from picking up his stories ... unless I hear the writing is at the very highest level I don't see this making it into the stack at the LCS

[eewwnuk]

38 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

I read the first 2 TPB for the Court stories. Not a big Bsts fan, I did pick them up based on all the hype I was hearing. I have not picked up anything since and don't feel inclined after hearing the take(s) from Chris and Gene. 

 

Question: if I were to pick up another Batman arc, what would be the most suggested after Court? Sounds like the Halloween arc?

I'll throw out a few that aren't widely hyped, but to me are great combinations of story and art - Robin Year 1 & Batgirl Year 1.  

[kimik]

Death of the Family was a fun read (#13-17), as well as the Endgame arc from #35 - 40 which gave an interesting take on the Joker.

[Stefanomjr]

Interesting how this topic took a turn towards Sean Murphy, seems like all the negative feedback invariably mentions his hubris. In life and especially in business no one will be willing to give you what you're not willing to take. More artists should be like Sean, lest they end up like Bill Finger.

As for the merits of his art.  Capullo & Murphy are on my short list of artists I'll buy anything they work on.

 

I gave up on the new Batman run, "I am Gotham", as I found the writing very lazy. So White Knight was refreshingly good, to me. Wasn't  over the top like Metal or Super Heavy and art was glorious. 

[SquareChaos]

11 hours ago, Mr. Machismo said:

If you think White Knight art is [objectively] bad, that reveals a deep lack of understanding when it comes to art.

 

23 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

For me, White Knight just isn't worth reading due to the awful storytelling... but of course every person will have some amount of subjectivity there. Though I do believe that even art (speaking of the general art of comics, more than the 'art' on the page) can have qualities that are objectively bad... White Knight skirted that line for me. I was unable to power through and actually continue past the third issue. The art on the page was OK, but I personally don't like Murphy on Batman the more Murphy on Batman that I've seen... which is somewhat odd, as I've liked his work on titles like Joe the Barbarian and Tokyo Ghost quite a bit.

You must have put very little effort into reading what I actually wrote.

Edited June 26, 2018 by SquareChaos

[ESeffinga]

I agree insofar as tracing the line between Finger and Murphy. Artist's should be their own biggest cheerleader, and especially in today's market where the art market is flooded with talents, it does take something extra to find a real audience. I've seen countless super talented folks go unsung because they were not inclined to make a lot of noise around their art, preferring to let the art speak for itself. It's a decision I respect, but one that sadly has done their career potential no great service. On the flipside of that, I think Murphy pretty much overstepped and set a near unreachable bar, given the times. It is hard to force a zeitgeist onto anything. It happens, or it does not.  And the way someone goes about trying to capture that mood/sentiment/imagination can have a positive or negative impact on how it is actually received by the public. From what I see around me (which is by no means anything more than anecdotally speaking) Murphy's approach has attracted a largely love it or hate it response. Which in my experience is often where some of the best art lies. Not so much if you are in the hate it camp, but better to have created a connection with a very committed few (or more than few) than a huge audience of indifference.

Murphy's hubris aside, I still haven't read White Knight. I figured I'd wait and eventually read the collection, like I usually do for most books. I'm unswayed by the opinions I've heard both for and against it, as I usually like to give certain artists a fair shake because in my eyes the work deserves it. Murphy is one of those artists whose work caught my eye long before Batman. And the first few Batman pieces I'd seen from him looked really promising. But then I thought his style could suit the title very well. I will say here, maybe for the first time, that after seeing a fair number of Sean's Batman pages floating around from White Knight, I think overall it's wonderfully thrilling to look at for the most part.  And I don't like his Batman in White Knight. There, I said it. The no-neck Batman bugs the bejesus out of me. There have been details and "throw away" background items in pages I've seen that most "comics" guys could give a about. Things like cars, buildings and staircases that I think have been some of his most exciting "art" from White Knight. And then there have been splashy villain/hero pages that have left me cold. And others that I think are spectacular. They just don't tend to have no-neck Batman on them.

And don't misunderstand, I LOVE stylish Batman artists that stretch anatomy, and downright throw it away. Kelley Jones, Tim Sale, Sam Keith, Paul Pope. I don't love every Batman they've ever drawn, and original art-ise I'm really picky about what I'd want to on, but by and large I dig when they do what they do in comics. I was hoping the same would be for me of White Knight from Murphy, who's work I was a fan of before he ever got a whiff of Batman. And I truly can't speak intelligently to that story or really the art as a whole until I've read the book. But thus far, I'm not a fan of the Bats images I've seen from this title. I'm hoping it's just a case of misunderstanding what I'm seeing.

But that's OK. My dislike of his stylization doesn't need to impact anyone else's enjoyment of it.

 

An artist friend once told me he had no interest in "painting a bowl of lemons". What he saying wasn't that he had anything against lemons. It was that he wanted whatever he painted to bring more to the piece than just being an exact visual representation/reproduction of what it was. That the art of art is bringing more to rather than just reproducing a thing. Not drawing by the numbers. Not making a painting that looks as good as a photograph, or a comic that looks like stills from a movie. Better to bring something unique and worthwhile to the party. If it's a no-neck Batman and people dig that stylization. So be it!

For years there were a few guys who were SUPER into Tim Sale's Long Halloween and Dark Victory work, when the rest of the original art market all but ignored it. I remember buying batches of pages from Mitch for 60-200 each, and they'd sit on his site for months. Years in some cases. I think Sale's work was a stretch for a lot of men-in-tights superhero fans. Sale's highly stylized work was more like a Tim Burton movie or a Gris Grimley kid's book. And that is exactly why I loved it. I loved it from the time Tim did the first little Batman short stories now collected in the Ghosts trade that predate Long Halloween. And I didn't even notice them. It was my younger brother who told me I needed to check them out.

That combo of Loeb's stories and Tim's art were pure joy for me. And I said long ago that I thought it was the best Batman story since the Miller cornerstones of the 80s. And yet people seemed to skip right over TLH and go gaga for Loeb with Lee on Hush. Which to me, felt a bit like a retread of the Long Halloween formula of storytelling from Loeb, but with more easily digested art. Lee's anatomy being much more of that straight ahead comics style. Tight, and sharp and full focus. And for my personal tastes, a bowl of lemons. I look at it and I see the bowl, the lemons. It's all spelled out. My own tastes tend towards the loose, the angular, the painterly and the hyper stylized. I still totally respect and admire what Jim does as an illustrator, a storyteller and a draftsman. It's just not my personal preference for comic art. Same with Alex Ross, or Capullo or any one of a number of folks who have a very (to me) rigid idealized form of working. In most ways it's because it's presented in a world of reality. The body moves like this. So it looks like this when this happens, but very often it's more of a posed interpretation than a real dynamism in form or anatomy. ... and I'm running off the rails rambling outside my point.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's entirely possible to not like a work of an artist and still like the artist. And to understand them. And to be able to both look critically at one's own preference of their work and praise/dislike them at the same time. I think SquareChaos and I probably have a fairly similar stance and view of what Sean's doing, though from our own perspectives.

I'm very curious to read White Knight. To spend time with it. And ultimately like it, or not. I think Murphy's a super talented guy, with a ton of style. He maybe ruffled some feathers with some of his "bigger than Jesus" Beatles-like declarations. But hey, time will be the telling factor, and no individual gets to decide how it'll play out.

I, for one, thought Court of Owls had a ton of promise, but ultimately didn't deliver as the storylines went along. In fact, I think I might have liked it less than some others give it credit for. But that was the writing less than the art. Artistically, it's all very well constructed. Fairly free of any wonkiness from an an illustrative perspective, and about as nice of a comic told visually as one can get, and artistically speaking almost every page is as consistently sound as the next. But for ME (and this is only my take), Capullo's linework is largely uninteresting. He has his moments to be sure. I'm sure I could flip through my copies of the books and find covers, pages, panels, items in drawings that I really think are great. But on the whole, I'd rather have a page of Kelley Jones wonkiness where the anatomy is totally jacked up, and the face the woman is wholly unattractive and the setting is nearly nonsensical. If for no other reason that the whole book exudes a mood, an attitude, and in me, the art elicits a feeling, good bad or sometimes both.

And that brings be back around to the beginning.
Better to have a reaction... love/hate... than a lot of indifference.

Just my .02¢

 

[comix4fun]

15 hours ago, Stefanomjr said:

Interesting how this topic took a turn towards Sean Murphy, seems like all the negative feedback invariably mentions his hubris. In life and especially in business no one will be willing to give you what you're not willing to take. More artists should be like Sean, lest they end up like Bill Finger.

As for the merits of his art.  Capullo & Murphy are on my short list of artists I'll buy anything they work on.

 

I gave up on the new Batman run, "I am Gotham", as I found the writing very lazy. So White Knight was refreshingly good, to me. Wasn't  over the top like Metal or Super Heavy and art was glorious. 

Being confident is never a problem....until you over-promise and under-deliver.

Sean Murphy can say whatever he would like about his projected, "The Next 'X', Best Thing Since The Invention of Pizza, Etc." as long as he hits the marks. When you aim for the top, and miss, it's a long way down. 

He could have probably mentioned how happy he was with his White Knight project and felt like he was doing something really good with the character and then let the work speak for itself.  He chose self-aggrandizement (mentioning Miller, etc) prior to release and completion of the project. Big Risk. Leaves little room for falling short. 

[Stefanomjr]

On 6/26/2018 at 12:11 PM, comix4fun said:

Being confident is never a problem....until you over-promise and under-deliver.

Sean Murphy can say whatever he would like about his projected, "The Next 'X', Best Thing Since The Invention of Pizza, Etc." as long as he hits the marks. When you aim for the top, and miss, it's a long way down. 

He could have probably mentioned how happy he was with his White Knight project and felt like he was doing something really good with the character and then let the work speak for itself.  He chose self-aggrandizement (mentioning Miller, etc) prior to release and completion of the project. Big Risk. Leaves little room for falling short. 

 Maybe you're right. Never invite comparisons to what collectors and readers almost unanimously revere (myself included). But I'd expect nothing less from the guy that gave us PRJ. Also, I'd rather have an artist swing for the fences and give me a triple (which I think SGM did) than look to get a double and only come up with a single. To follow through with the analogy, some would say he struck out. I'd disagree. 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Stefanomjr
Used then instead of than

[Mr. Machismo]

On 6/25/2018 at 9:57 AM, JadeGiant said:

I read the first 2 TPB for the Court stories. Not a big Bsts fan, I did pick them up based on all the hype I was hearing. I have not picked up anything since and don't feel inclined after hearing the take(s) from Chris and Gene. 

 

Question: if I were to pick up another Batman arc, what would be the most suggested after Court? Sounds like the Halloween arc?

The Long Halloween, definitely. If you like that, move on to Dark Victory. 

Classics: Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Dark Knight: Returns (just in case you haven’t read them.)

Modern books: Batman: The Black Mirror, Batman: Hush (largely divisive), Joker, Batman: Noel, Batman: The Man Who Laughs, Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, Batman: Under the Red Hood, to name a few. 

I’d start with Long Halloween and Black Mirror. 

[Lucky Baru]

If you are looking for more of a main stream/throwback style then take a look at Year One: Batman/Scarecrow.  Published in 2005 and draw by Murphy. The story isn't the best but I think Murphy's pencils, style, and ability to relay what is happening make it a pretty good read.  His pencils are fantastic throughout the entire story.  Great use of shadow, and the costume he came up with for Scarecrow is fantastic.  If you like a big bulky Batman who doesn't look like a jacked up steroid bodybuilder then Murphy might have come up with a winner for you.  It was one of the first attempts by Murphy at mainstream comics and his first work on Batman.  I've no idea what the pages sell for as they rarely come up for sale. 

Here are some examples of the pages:

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Lucky Baru

[eewwnuk]

I'll add the alan moore written Batman Annual 11, and the Hurwitz / Maleev Clayface opus: The Dark Knight Vol. 4: Clay, as a couple more underhyped classics. 

[JadeGiant]

On 6/26/2018 at 10:04 PM, Mr. Machismo said:

The Long Halloween, definitely. If you like that, move on to Dark Victory. 

Classics: Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Dark Knight: Returns (just in case you haven’t read them.)

Modern books: Batman: The Black Mirror, Batman: Hush (largely divisive), Joker, Batman: Noel, Batman: The Man Who Laughs, Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, Batman: Under the Red Hood, to name a few. 

I’d start with Long Halloween and Black Mirror. 

I read Year One DK, KJ, etc. back when they came out. 

I also read a lot of Hush as I was grabbing the title off the rack sporadically for the artwork but the story didn't capture me enough to get them all. 

I love Sale's art and hear tons about Long Halloween being good so I will grab that trade. 

Thanks

[delekkerste]

46 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

I read Year One DK, KJ, etc. back when they came out. 

I also read a lot of Hush as I was grabbing the title off the rack sporadically for the artwork but the story didn't capture me enough to get them all. 

I love Sale's art and hear tons about Long Halloween being good so I will grab that trade. 

Thanks

I didn't read The Long Halloween until recently.  I think it's not only one of the best Batman stories ever written (I'd put it above The Killing Joke), but one of the best comics stories, period.  The Tim Sale art is marvelous as well - genius is not too strong a term to describe his work on this series.  Uh-maze-ing. 

In addition to the other storylines that were previously mentioned, I'd also throw in "Ten Nights of the Beast" and "Death in the Family" (both by Starlin/Aparo).  I also enjoyed the Starlin-penned issues that preceded and came in-between these storylines.  And, of course, the classic "A Lonely Place of Dying" (Wolfman/Perez) which came the following year.  I don't think that "Knightfall" or "Knightquest" were mentioned; I have mixed feelings towards these storylines, though, they had their moments. 

I checked out the "Batman Noir" (black & white) version of "Black Mirror" from the library on Kyle's suggestion (haven't started it yet, though).  I also have the Gaiman-penned "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" waiting for me there on hold. 

[MagnusX]

I would also recommend Paul Dini Run in Detective Comics
specially # 826.

And avoid like the plague Neal Adams odyssey.