The_Man_Of_Steel Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Hey MOS (nice to chat with ya)... Thanks, you should join us at the Comics General board more often, most of us don't bite...that often. I think it's 3 years... I asked them and they said they started Jan, 2000. Maybe it's been closer to 2.5 to 2.75 years of widespread use and knowledge of however. Your probably right, but CGC came into the picture after the 90's "fallout". The reason I pointed out [that CGC is relatively new] is because in the 3 years CGC has been around, CGC has not won the heart of EVERY dealer out there. Nor does every comic book collector that has ever collected know about CGC. Also not all collector's feel the need to pay for grading unless they desire to sell their collection. Hulk 181 being the first appearance of Wolverine, and Wolverine being one of Marvel's most popular characters might pursuade a few Wolvie fans to keep their copy(ies) in their collection, and therefore not have it graded by CGC [because they're NOT selling them]. And let's not forget that NOT all collector's feel comfortable about shipping a $1,000 - $4,000 comic book from where they live to Florida, with the confidence that everthing will go well. What might discourage collector's/dealers from submitting? Possibility of damage while in transit to CGC, the lack of CGC grading definitons (unknown grading standards makes it difficult to know what to expect, and makes it impossible to win in a disagreement with the grading [the folks at CGC are smart cookies]), the possibility that it could return with a lower than expected grade, turnaround time, and the possibility of damage while in transit back to them. Yes it's true that USPS insurance is available to cover lost mail, but some books cannot be so easily replaced. For example: What if you paid $300 for a NM copy 10 years ago, purchased $500 of USPS insurance to send it to CGC, the book received a VF/NM 9.0, and either ended up lost or damaged? We both know 9.9 times out of 10 it would cost more than $500 to replace a NM copy of Hulk 181 today. The bottom line here is the risks involved in submitting, are a deterant for some people, and some collector's only submit what they want to sell...and that's only the collecor's that know about CGC. I'm sure a some gems were tucked away by some that were not as strapped as others (probably not valuable multiples though), but I figure they were trying to move as much inventory as they could to pay off debt, finance their next venture, or to live on until they had a new career going. Good point, and I'm sure that's true for many, many, smaller shops. But what about the BIG shops that had TONS of Silver and Bronze books (they did/do exist right?) ? How about bankruptcy? I'm not a law student, so I'm asking, would bankruptcy protect a business from having to sell EVERTHING (including their gems)? If you had the RIGHT amount of the RIGHT books, and were going out of business, would you consider filing bankruptcy? How many of the thousands of comic shops filed for bankruptcy? Even so, the BIG shops could "afford" to sell OTHER books (because they have the stock to do so), while keeping their BEST books. I agree that a fair share of closing shop owners probably ended up keeping more of the less desirable stock they couldn't sell in hopes of someday cashing in a little better than 5¢ a book, but holding onto multiple HG valuable keys is hard for me to accept of someone in the position they seem to have been in. If I had owned a BIG comic shop 10 years ago, and were going out of business, I would try and sell EVERYTHING EXCEPT the best books. If I thought that a fairly valuable book that I had hoarded would have future potential, and I only paid a small fraction (Let's say $30 each) of the value at that time (10 years ago $300), then I think I would sit on the $30 I had invested in each copy and sell other books that looked less promising. Cherry picking my friend, dealers have been doing it for a looooooooooong time. I would try and sell everything but the cherry's. Anyway, the question of how many NM 9.2 and better copies of Hulk 181 that are in existance may not be answered for a long time...IMO I just wanted to bring some more "food for thought" to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 And I'm sure when you went to open them all your "NM"'s turned out to be "VF"'s and your major keys turned out to be minor at best? It seems thats what happened when most people go back to their collections after a long time.. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I hang around General too...sometimes... I'm making more of an effort to get more exchanges going here in Bronze... For too long I've looked in here and the crickets are chirping. I know it's only a few threads that are moving...but what great conversation and courteous, intelligent debate has taken place so far just in this thread. The objective really seems to learn, inform and get somewhere. I also notice a distinct "knock on wood" lack of senseless banter, hijacking and rudeness. You offered a buffet of good "food for thought" I am aware of some collectors too that are afraid/reluctant to submit their books for fear of something happening to them... others are simply lazy or indifferent. The bankruptcy point .. also valid. Makes sense, declare... keep/hide the good inventory. I agree many shops would be "trying" to move the common stuff and sit on the cherries... but since the buyers in most cases would have the opposite objective, I think its fair to say many had to sell the cherries and others were too stubborn to unload the so cheap that they threw the boxes in a basement... who knows for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Man_Of_Steel Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 And I'm sure when you went to open them all your "NM"'s turned out to be "VF"'s Yes and No, that is in some cases that would be true and in other cases it's not true. and your major keys turned out to be minor at best? hehe, that would be funny if it wasn't. I never owned a "major" key, until I purchased that ASM # 129 CGC 8.0. It seems thats what happened when most people go back to their collections after a long time.. I suppose that when Chuck checked out the Mile High Collection that all those "NM"'s turned out to be "VF"'s, just sitting in stacks for all those years in a basement. Your applying your argument to a collector [me], and NOT a dealer, and that is the weakness of your argument. Just because someone WAS a [bIG] dealer 10 years ago, and has 200+ long boxes in storage, does NOT mean they purchase an OverStreet guide every year to check out the current value of their "investments". They learned just what an "investment" comics were when they went out of the comic business, so they could probably care less about digging through 200+ long boxes to find all their best books to send in to CGC to cash in on their "investment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I haven't applied any argument, I was merely pointing out that a lot of books people thought were solid NM a long time ago are really VF's in today's grading enviroment. And by no means is the Church collection the rule, it's without a doubt an extreme exception to the rule. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan36 Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 CGC has not won the heart of EVERY dealer out there. Nor does every comic book collector that has ever collected know about CGC Well anyone with eBay and some common sense knows that if they have a high grade copy, slabbing the book could very easily double what their book brings in auction. I don't think your argument is a valid argument, if someone has a high grade copy and wants to sell it, he's going to slab it if he has any sense. I think a more persuasive argument about the number of Hulk 181's out there would be thats theres an absolute assload of high grade copies on eBay at any given time. This would be a warning sign to me, anyway you look at it, its not a good sign, either dealers are buying up the ultra high grade copies to hold for a short time and then profit fromm quickly because they're sure the CGC effect will continue or theres so many copies out there that demand of high grade copies can be easily satisfy collectors. Theres got to be some collectors socking these things away right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dam60 Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 This has been a really great thread and I have really enjoyed reading everything! My one comment would be that if you are a collector with no desire what so ever to sell, why slab? Some of the best copies in the hands of long timer collectors would probably still rate a NM+ (I don't think that we'll ever see a NM/MT again) but I think that the NM to NM+ range still has a few hidden gems somewhere out there . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 We'll propbably see a 1 or 2 more 9.8's in the coming years... but I doubt anymore 9.9's will show up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 What about a 10.0 Bruce? Maybe someone will re-sub the 9.9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 " if you are a collector with no desire what so ever to sell, why slab? " If nothing else, it will "certify" what you already have. And even if you have no desire to sell, sometimes things can come up and some quick cash might be needed. In that case, your certified books will have the liquidity you might need in that kind of emergency situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 "If nothing else, it will "certify" what you already have. And even if you have no desire to sell, sometimes things can come up and some quick cash might be needed. In that case, your certified books will have the liquidity you might need in that kind of emergency situation." I'm betting most long time collectors have no intention of slabing their books. Anyone who has been a serious collector for a number of years certainly has no need to 'certify' what they already have. Their years of grading experience mean that they don't need a third party to tell them what grades their books are. I don't buy the liquidity argument either. Books are only slabbed by people who want to sell them NOW. Why would someone who wants to keep their boooks risk sending them to be graded 'just in case' thet might sell later? It makes no sense to go to the no little expense of a grading service just to have them sit in the same box they were in before. CGC are still seen by long time collectors as the new kid on the block, not neccessarily the 'all knowing/all seeing' comics gods that some see them as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 " Their years of grading experience mean that they don't need a third party to tell them what grades their books are. "[/i] That's funny. I've bought raw books from people(dealers and collectors) who have "years of grading experience" and have recieved too many over-graded books than I care to think about. So if not CGC, someone else better tell them how to grade. The problem is, standards have apparently changed quite a bit, and are now much stricter than they previously were. I'm not saying CGC is all knowing/all seeing but the whole "long time collector/grader thing holds no weight with me. "I don't buy the liquidity argument either. Books are only slabbed by people who want to sell them NOW. Why would someone who wants to keep their boooks risk sending them to be graded 'just in case' thet might sell later? It makes no sense to go to the no little expense of a grading service just to have them sit in the same box they were in before. " Well I must not make sense then, because I do this. Not on every book mind you, but on the better stuff. For one thing the restoration check alone is invaluable. Maybe you don't feel the need to slab your Master of Kung Fu books, or whatever other $15 bronze books you collect( ) but if slabbing as a collector dosen't make sense, why do guys like Brulato do it? And I guarantee that there are a lot of slabbed books that will not hit the market for a very long time. Look at it as a way of determining exactly what you have(market acceptibility) and not what you THINK you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 "but if slabbing as a collector dosen't make sense, why do guys like Brulato do it?" I don't totally disagree with your argument, sure there are plenty of collectors slabbing their books, but I really feel thats its only the ones with the thoughts of one day selling them in the back of their mind. You use yourself as an example of a collector who slabs books for 'certification', but you have mentioned on these boards that you regularly sell your books. For the collector who has no intention of selling their comics, I just don't see 'certification' of books as a strong enough motivation to send them to cgc. They have already spent good money on the books, why spend even more just to get them graded? "Maybe you don't feel the need to slab your Master of Kung Fu books, or whatever other $15 bronze books you collect." Thanks for the kudos Andrew! Most of my MOKF books wouldn't even break the $10 mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I've been slabbing my books, it's nice to get an independant opinion of your books.. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 "You use yourself as an example of a collector who slabs books for 'certification', but you have mentioned on these boards that you regularly sell your books." Yeah, you're right about that. Actually, I do deal comics out more than I collect, but I do have a personal collection that I'm trying to keep and build. And because early Marvels are a big part of that collection, restoration is the principle reason I slab. But I admit that I'm not one of these "to the grave" type collectors, so you do have a point. "Thanks for the kudos Andrew! Most of my MOKF books wouldn't even break the $10 mark." Yeah, I'm a generous F#%K$R aren't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 if slabbing as a collector dosen't make sense, why do guys like Brulato do it? Because he wants to know he has the best. Most of the rest of us know we don't have the best with our lowly 9.0s, 9.2s, and 9.4s. I don't send anything in unless I want to see if it's restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I usually do not send a book in unless I think it's a sure fire 9.4, except for books that may be extremely rare in grades above 9.0. And with many books a 9.4 may not be the best, but is definetly among the top in existence. Maybe it is an ego thing, but that's half the fun. Also, like Blowout, you're coming from a postition where you don't care about selling or making money while collecting. So I guess there's quite a bit of truth to Blowout's original statement. So FF, out of curiosity, do you upgrade books? Or are you content once you get above 9.0. And it seems like you don't sell at all, so if you do upgrade do you just keep the "lesser" copy around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Yea, I upgrade, and yea, I keep 'em around. I'll trade/sell one day, but not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I have begun sending in my personal collection. The grade it comes back with I usually agree with, if I missed something and it comes back lower then a 9.4..it goes. With a fully slabbed collection I can know exactly what I think I have plus what everyone else will think I have (i.e. most people could give two [!@#%^&^] about my grading, but CGCs?? now you're talking..so I have a universal barometer in order to continually upgrade my books) And btw, I've never sold anything from my collection except for that dupe run of ASM so I slab mine just have slab them Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 I think I have my answer as to whether or not Hulk #181 has any room left for growth. Thanks to all those who have respoded in what turned out to be one of the best threads I have seen on the boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
