jordanabigail Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Actually, thanks to Garth Ennis and his super duper popular Punisher maxi-series a couple of years ago...the new Punisher ongoing series is a consistent Top seller for Marvel. Marvel has been very smart about not overexposing him like they did in the early 90's...but the bottom line is that his new series sells very well. Plus, a Punisher movie is about to go into production. Article in today's Variety about it. I LOVE my ASM 129 and 135 set in 9.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisco37 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Another Punisher movie! I hope Dolph Lundgren reprises his role! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Another Punisher movie! I hope Dolph Lundgren reprises his role! As long as they don't get some weenie like Jude Law or Josh Hartnett to do some sensitive-guy 21st century update of the Punisher (can you believe they were considering both of these guys to play Superman???), I'm OK with it! Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquiti Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Superman is a pretty tough role to cast for. Hartnet might work only because he has the square jaw thing. A better casting might be Edward Norton.. he can bulk up(American History X) and is a phenomenal actor. He would have to dye his hari and stuff...but I think he would make a good, albeit darker, Superman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthdiesel Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Hartnet might work only because he has the square jaw thing And he already did an "audition" Superman-esque flying scene in "40 Days and 40 Nights".....and pulled it off quite well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 i agree with Murph and AndrewKnight...Ill believe it when I see it...and even if there are a ton of HG 181s out there,i seriously doubt that many of them will grade higher than 9.2. I cant even find many GI JOes in 9.6 and higher! With grading standards as high as they are now im sure a lot of these so called NM and higher 181s are probably no higher than VFs. Cant wait for the 2013 post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Man_Of_Steel Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 I could care less about who you agree with because this isn't a popularity contest...or is it? The following statements in bold are facts NOT myth or opinon: According to the Standard Catalog of Comic Books circulation statement there are 202,592 copies of Incredible Hulk 181 printed/sold. According to Jan. 9th 2003 CGC census 1,177 copies of Incredible Hulk 181 have been graded. What percentage is 1,177 out of 202,592? Of the 1,177 CGC graded copies 407 of them grade 9.0 or higher. The VAST MAJORITY of total copies printed/sold have yet to graded by CGC. Have we so soon forgotten that CGC has only been around for 2 years! I don't know if you realize this or not, but there are still many people that are opposed to having CGC grade their books. If most people believe that this book will continue to go up in value as it has the past 10 years, then many of those same people could care less about slabbing right now (assuming they know about CGC) because they are WAITING to sell. Another thing to consider is that out of 1,177 copies, I would guess that a FEW of those 1,177 have been resubmitted (for example: a 9.0 resubmitted and graded 9.2, the census could show 2 copies where there are 1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthdiesel Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Another thing to consider is that out of 1,177 copies, I would guess that a FEW of those 1,177 have been resubmitted (for example: a 9.0 resubmitted and graded 9.2, the census could show 2 copies where there are 1). Not necessarily. If the sour grapes submitter did the right thing when resubmitting and return the whole book complete with label for discount and proper tracking purposes, then CGC will amend the census stats to reflect the resubmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Not to mention that out of a print run like that not necesarily every book was sent out..some were destroyed b/c of major problems, other possibilities as well. I highly doubt there's still even 100k copies of this book out there. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 10, 2003 Author Share Posted January 10, 2003 If there are anything near 100K still out there you can bet that there will be MANY more HG copies turning up on the cgc census. But who knows for sure? Anyone on these boards know anyone who for CERTAIN has a high grade case of the book stashed away for a rainy day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dam60 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Even if someone does have a case there is no guarantee that those will be NM+ copies. I have a few cases of different books (okay, don't laugh - XO Manowar 14 and 15 and Turok #1, heh, I love 'em and got 'em for almost nothing) and more than half of them have a few dinged corners or some other defect that's keeping them from being perfect. I am sure the same would apply even if someone did have a box of Hulk 181s straight from the distributor . . . DAM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 The following statements in bold are facts NOT myth or opinon: I think this is a great point, MOS. Let's ignore for now the destroyed copies that have been mentioned. 1,177 (which may be overstated due to resubmissions) out of 202,592 copies is only 1/2 of 1 percent of the print run submitted to CGC to date. Sure, I'm sure tens of thousands of copies have been destroyed over the years, but still, we are talking about over two hundred thousand copies. Furthermore, while it may have been difficult to realize in advance that Wolverine was going to be such a huge character, this is still the Hulk we are talking about here, one of Marvel's most popular and widely collected titles in the 1970s. We're not talking about some obscure Bronze title, but rather a comic that was regularly picked up by probably tens of thousands, if not a hundred thousand or more, collectors and readers each and every month. I'm not saying there must be unopened cases of this book out there, but given how widely collected the Hulk title was, might there not be a significant number of 181s still out there in collections or perhaps even buried unknowingly in dealer inventory somewhere? Even if we are talking about another 2 or 3 percent of the print run, that would still be many multiples of what has been submitted to CGC to date. Sure, most will be low to mid grade, but even a tiny percentage in high grade would dramatically boost the very small census numbers. As Murph says, there's no way to prove any of this, and only time will tell, but I don't think any of the assumptions I made above are unrealistic. Again, I repeat: only a tiny percentage of a small percentage of high grade copies need to have survived in some form, whether in dealer inventory or collections, to multiply the census numbers dramatically. Again, though, just a theory. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquiti Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 I think maybe a larger, more overlooked number of these books are probably in big boxes in mom and dad's attic that Johnnny left at home when he went away to college, the Army, whatever , and forgot about. Seriously, I would guess there are thousands of copies out there where this has happened. There are a lot of people out there(mom and dad) that think the only worth those comics have is nostalgia and memories, and wouldn't even think about trying to sell them. Plus a lot of those people also probably have never even seen eBay to try and unload them. And if that is the case, they definitely won't know what cgc is... Not saying thats the largest segment of where those 202,000 copies are, but I would bet it's probably a decent sized number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 hey shovelhead....relax....That post wasnt even meant for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan36 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 think maybe a larger, more overlooked number of these books are probably in big boxes in mom and dad's attic that Johnnny left at home when he went away to college, the Army, whatever , and forgot about True i'd say a decent percentage of the books are lost or hidden, but even if say 50,000 books are in dealers hands, invariably these 50,000 copies will be the high grade 8.0+ copies that the dealers started accumulating as some have said as early as the late 1970's. So in this context its not surprising that a lot of these books arent coming to light: 1.)dealers dont want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by releasing too many copies 2.)if dealers have any confidence in the overall stability of the back issue market they're happy to hold the most stable of the bronze age books: Hulk 181 3.)Some people have probably determined(rightly or wrongly) that the peak in demand for hulk 181 wont occur for some years and are holding their stashes back. Hulk 181 is certainly an interesting book to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthdiesel Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Gene - try this theory on for size: Back then, the Marvel statement numbers were artificially inflated by the publisher to defraud the USPS in order to qualify for a better tier discount when shipping in volume. Today, we have task forces now devoted to studying the habits/production of bulk mailers and Pitney bowes postage meter users in order to prevent this sort of fraud from occurring and cheating the Postal Service of the revenue its due. This is a large obstacle to allowing that type of fraud to be perpetrated again. So it is possible that there are not so many books out there as we want to think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Hey Darth, anything is possible...the numbers may also have been padded to boost ad revenues. But, I think the crux of my hypothesis still stands - even if a very, very small percentage of a non-inflated print count have survived, that's still many multiples of the current CGC'd totals. And, even assuming that the vast majority of these are VF or lower, it again would only take a tiny fraction to be high grade to greatly multiply the current census numbers. Again, this is only a hypothesis, but perhaps a reasonable one in light of the incredibly small number of copies that have been submitted to CGC to date in the greater scheme of things. What I'm saying is that you should keep that in mind before assuming $5K or $10K is a chip shot for a 9.4 Hulk 181 in the next decade. Plus, I'm a firm believer that the higher prices rise, the more copies will make their way to the marketplace. Back in 1980, who knew that Americans owned so much silver? When the Hunt brothers put the squeeze on the market, every American was digging through their attics to find silver to sell as prices rose to previous unfathomable levels. I think only time and continued rising prices will bring out the "hidden" supply of Hulk 181s to the market...if they exist at all. Not saying that they do for sure, just waxing hypothetically. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 10, 2003 Author Share Posted January 10, 2003 Okay, so we are probably on fairly safe ground when we say that the census numbers are only a small percentage of the HG copies of Hulk 181 out there. The question now is then, what kind of CGC census rise would it take to dramaticaly reduce the values of the CGC 9.4 and above copies? 200%, 1000%, more, less? How high can the census go before we hit 'wall'?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark88 Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 IMHO if the cgc census spikes up 150% next yr for 9.4 up Hulk 181 or Gt Sz X-men 1, ppl will get nervous & bid prices will DROP. Key bronze mkt crash/correction in Dec. 2003? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Hey Lee, If by high grade you mean 8.0 to 9.0... I think it's a "no-brainer" that those numbers will grow incredibly in 10 years time (assuming there is no surprise CGC collapse). I'm also fairly certain that new issues in 9.2 have a very good chance of growing more than enough to effect value in that grade too, especially if that story I posted earlier comes to pass. If this all happens, there should then be a leveling out in value from 9.2 and down as supply reaches equilibrium, or surpasses demand in those grades. Where I personally have doubts is with 9.4 and up, particularly 9.6 (9.8's will always be worth a small fortune). My hunch (for what it's worth) is that it is less than probable, despite the overwhelming statistics, that there is still a ton of CGC level 9.4's and up sitting in collections. I'm far less certain that CGC level 9.6 numbers are going to grow anywhere near the pace some are suggesting in 10 years. I think they will remain low enough that 9.6 will clearly become the grade to have as we progress. I would then predict that a much larger separation in value/demand will grow between 9.4 and 9.6. Certainly more than the 2x to 2.25x I would estimate it to be currently. I would not be surprised if a gap of about 2.75x to 3.25x opens up between the two grades as time passes (especially if 9.4's do surprise somehow and grow more than I expect). The gap would be similar to what we witness often between the 9.6 and 9.8 grades on many keys. This may be obvious, but I think the safe grade to have going forward, to at least tread water 10 years from now, is 9.4 with oww, or better yet White pages and above average centering/registration. To expect investment level appreciation... you'll need a 9.6. and by that I mean that the book will be worth more in relation to the cost of living/inflation. (hope that came out correct Gene) None of us can do more than theorize at this point and even feeling as strongly as I do, I'm still not overly confident my arguments are any stronger than some of the opposing points of view... but here are some random thoughts that have run through my mind while developing my take on all this... 1. Isn't it more likely that the highest percentage of the existing copies not CGC'd were bought, read, handled and stored by more casual "fans"... not obsessive condition freak collectors and speculators? Are the vast majority of the remaining raw copies in the houses/attics of those that carefully read and handled the book or those who read it without fear.. and with a coke slurpee and candy bar in the other hand like me (a future high grade freak)? 2. Considering this book is given no favoritism at all at CGC (being a mega key) and the deep red/orange background/spine spotlights stresses similarly to a black cover comic, it seems improbable to me that many collectors around 1974-75 handled/stored this book so gently that many escaped the 1-2 stresses and minor corner dings that easily drops the book into 9.2 and below. >> On that note... does anybody recall exactly when comic backerboards started to be used widespread? I don't remember them being used in the early/mid 70's (but I was young). Without backerboards, isn't the likelihood that this issue in general, did not easily escape the "easy to inflict" stresses while being inserted into bags and boxes as well as when the owners casually rifled through their comic boxes? >> Also, is there any correlation between the high percentage late 70's books surviving in HG in higher numbers compared to early/mid 70's comics simply due to the use of backer boards??? If the vast majority of Hulk 181's were stored without them (at least for several years)... how can there be many CGC level 9.4 and especially 9.6's out there? It's soooo easy to cause stresses when comics are stored without them. 3. As far as supply so far, and the suggestion that we've seen only a small percentage of the existing copies (which is certainly true) is there merit to the idea that even so, a disproportionate amount of the high grade copies have been submitted simply because its far more likely that dealers and collectors who are still active in the hobby were more concerned with their books condition than fan types and bought/obtained and properly stored their copies? These would also be the groups that would be aware of CGC and the profit/value a HG copy holds. 4. With all the dealers and collectors out there looking for HG keys, haven't many of these lost/ignored collections been cherry picked? Maybe I'm off here, but if there were people that I still knew that used to collect... I would be all over buying their books and looking for the gems if they grew uninterested in the hobby. How many people know someone with a probable raw NM or better copy in their ignored collection? Didn't comic geeks hang out and have a feeling what the other had? I'm sure there is a percentage of anti-CGC purists and oblivious collectors with no friends still in the hobby that have some and won't grade them... but are those numbers staggering? OK... my brain hurts... I'm done. If I'm way off base on something here... let me hear it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
