greggy Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 All I know is that the Mile High run of Action 1-20 was sold in a lot in the early 1980s for $20,000 total. That makes a sale in the early 70s of $25,000 impossible. I will review an early issue of Inside Comics where they reported that a copy sold for approximately $1,800. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBob Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I remember reading about a sale of Action #1 in the mid seventies for around $10,000. At least that's what I think I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggy Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Well, Action 1 guided for $4,200 in the 1976 Overstreet in "Mint" condition. Given the aversion of collectors paying over guide for any books at that time, that sounds a bit high. I read the market reports from issue 6 (1976) to 10 (1980). It does report a sale of a NM sale of an Action 1 in issue 10 for $9,400. However, in issue #9, it did report that a "Mint" Marvel Comics #1 sold for $13,500 and that the Washington Post did a story and other papers picked it up. This may the be book you may have remembered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 That's about the time frame I had in mind as to when comics being worth money started becoming common knowledge. But what do I know, I was only 8 or 9 years old at the time...but that is right when I started collecting. And I remember buying the Overstreet #11 in 1981 to see if the comics I had bought--Richie Rich!--were worth anything. I think my parents told me they had heard stories of comics selling for thousands of dollars. For you non-Richie Rich collectors out there, my 1978/79/80 collection wasn't worth thousands of dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I'm more curious as to when the average collector who desired to keep his books in great shape, recognized the benefit of, and started to using the various new storage products... sort of a time line... bags/mylars? comic backer boards? and comic boxes too. I suppose the products would have had to been sold in com ic shops if enough people were wiling to buy them. What the shops chose to do in terms of using and selling the products may have varied depending on a number of factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I don't blame CI for taking a break... some of the issues he and Gene proposed seem to have even more validity now. If either were to start that "C" word thread again... it could get depressing and ugly around here. He's probably working on his audio/vidoe set up I heard him mention more than once or re-reading all his Byrne X-men... I agree though, he can be hard to take in big doses sometimes, but his comments are valuable and on the mark often. He's a Top 5 contributor or higher on comic issues. You also have to respect that he's not reluctant to speak his mind. I just wish he didn't have to phrase things like... "only a insufficiently_thoughtful_person would buy that..." instead of the PC... "I feel buying X would be unwise at that level"... but to each his own. We miss you CI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark88 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I started using backing boards in 1987 after my comics were bent in 1986 at my 1st local comicon. Boards were being used at some of the local comicshops to protect their hi-grade moderns that CVM said was worth big $$. Even today, some comic retailers will not display their silver or gold in mylars or mylites. They want the collector to buy the raw bk, then buy their mylars & acid free boards fr the retailer to generate more retail sales. Switched to mylars & mylites when I was able to buy case lot at a time at San Diego comicon around 1988. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickdogg Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 BB, CI is awesome. What he has is BALLS. Nothing more. Nothing less. Too bad many people don't have them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Good point about the Direct Distribution. I was out of comics for a long while (only back for 3 years now) and missed a lot of the storage evolution. I don't remember for sure, but I think I sold my original collection in 1983-84. I had (6) acid free boxes... and about 28 regular ones. Everything was bagged... some of it had boards or mylars. I'm starting to think the turn in storage improvement happened later than the mid 70's for the majority... maybe some of the Specs and more Obsessed Collectors used the boards earlier (mid 70's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Hey Bug... Thanks for the kind words No, the auto-complaint stuff was funny (afterwards)... you just seemed like a unstable wackoo for awhile to those of us who had no idea how you developed those posts. Sorry about the overbidding... I can be a bit one tracked when I get a woody for a book. I don't recognize your Ebay handle though... don't recall squashing the bug? You should lmk what I outbid you on... I might have upgraded and be willing to let you have the undercopy at cost or a bit less (if its lost ground). BTW.. I lose plenty to bigger sharks. Recently, my Hulk 162 9.6dc Are you in the graphics field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggy Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 OK, I finally was able to look through my Overstreets from #6 (1976) to #15 (1985). Here are my findings with respect to the preservation products being advertised: #6 (1976) Comic boxes were first being advertised. #9 (1979) Ernie Gerber places his first ad for sealed mylar products as well as other preservation products such as acid free carton boxes. #10 (1980) Ernie Gerber advertises the first acid free cardboard (backing boards). Also, Bill Sarill makes the first mention of the proper type of cardboard to use in the preservation section. #15 (1985) This is the first guide in which I saw the cheaper quality backing boards being advertised for sale. So...it looks like Donut was using the good quality boards in its infancy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggy Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 OK, I looked through my Overstreets and found the potential sale that you may be referring to regarding the Action #1. In Overstreet #15 (1985), the market report by Bob Overstreet identified the following major sales: 1) Mile High Marvel Comics 1 sold for $35,000 as well as numerous other sales in the $20,000 - $24,000 range. 2) The Mile High Action #1 was sold to a dealer (I believe John Snyder) for $20,500 and issues 2 - 13 were sold to him for $29,500. These books were then sold to a collector (Probably Dave Anderson). Overstreet reports that the cash/trade value on the #1 was set at $25,000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugaboo-migration Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Sorry about the overbidding... I can be a bit one tracked when I get a woody for a book. I don't recognize your Ebay handle though... don't recall squashing the bug? You should lmk what I outbid you on... I might have upgraded and be willing to let you have the undercopy at cost or a bit less (if its lost ground). I've managed to keep my eBay handle a secret in here. Not sure if I want all the wolves in here to know who I am on eBay or not.......these guys can be pretty vicious. To tell you the truth.....it's been quite some time and I couldn't even remember what you outbid me on. But my interests have likely changed since then and I probably would have turned around and sold it at a loss by now anyway. And no worries......getting outbid is just part of the game. I just thought it was funny when I saw your handle in here.......because I remembered that name as the guy that usually got the book if he really wanted it....... And no.....I'm not in the graphics field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Don't get me wrong here, I think Hulk 181 is a great book that's on everybody's want list, and I'm the last person that should criticize anyone for spending too much (over market prices) on a comic book they really want as I do it all the time. But for investment purposes, IMHO the "hoarder" got in while the getting was good, and if buying a 9.6 white will cost you 4k right now (and many here seem to think it would be a good "investment"), it would have to be going for around 8k in 10 years to keep up with a relatively conservative investment portfolio, and around 10k to be ahead of the game. There simply are not many people in this country that can afford to spend ten thousand dollars on a comic book... I can accept that 181's were hoarded, that seems obvious just from the feedback on this post... what I have difficulty with... is accepting that many were stored well enough to have survived in CGC level 9.6's in particular (maybe yes on 9.4, we'll see). I also can't personally fathom the restraint necessary for dealers and collectors with multiple copies... to hold these potential HG gems back when they are commanding prices that are staggering. That defies human nature. Is it possible that there are "181 hoarders" out there that don't pay any attention to the hobby and don't realize that their plan born around 1974 or so has been steadily peaking for the past 3 years? As far as the investment comparison to investing in stocks, maybe Gene could help us here, but I'm not so sure a 4K investment 10 years ago is worth 8K now... and there would be taxes involved in that investment and probably not with a private sale of a comic. I'm also less confident about investing $4K now and expecting it to be worth $8k (less taxes) in 10 more years. I'm very skeptical of the stock market after seeing so much loss and the economic predictions for a longer down turn. I admittedly don't know much or have too much experience in the field, but yikes!! That's not to say I "expect" a 9.6 to be worth $10K in 10 years either... I have my hunches and I'll hope... but I did not buy it mainly for that purpose. The comfort and pleasure of having one (in my saftey deposit box) has it's own reward. I have to settle for looking at the mounted Cannon Color copy of it, but what the hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 "I also can't personally fathom the restraint necessary for dealers and collectors with multiple copies... to hold these potential HG gems back when they are commanding prices that are staggering. That defies human nature." This is a key point I made earlier. For a guy who has a hoard of NM 181's, the prices are too high to ignore. That's not to say they would sell them all, but I would at least think they would have a fair number slabbed, especially to prevent some future damage from occuring to them, thus resulting in a lesser grade. With the future economy as uncertain as it is now, combined with the profit margins these mythic hoarders stand to make, I can't see anyone turining their back for another 10 years. Again, I'm talking about pure NM or higher copies. I don't doubt the number of "nice copies" that may be available in hoards, but considering all the market evidence, as well as the comments above about the history of storage, I seriously find it doubtful that large quantities of these ultra high grades will turn up. I aknowledge that this is simply my opinion. If anyone has concrete evidence to the contrary, I more than invite you to prove me wrong. I care about knowledge first, and being right second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbanner Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Sounds like Greggy covered the preservation supply angle pretty well. As far as investment return, the "Rule of 7" is a common phrase, and basically means that if you can get 7% return on your investment over a period of 10 years, you've doubled your money. The last two-three years stocks lost money, but in the mid-late 90's average yearly returns of 15-20% on some of the larger mutual funds were common. When I first contributed to my 401k account about 10 years ago, there was a "guaranteed" fund (cash, bonds I imagine) that had a yield of over 8% for a couple years. A final bit of advice on the investment front is that historically, incumbent administrations strive to improve the economic outlook in their 3rd year in order to help in their re-election bids. Look at Bush's tax plan - he's reintroducing massive federal budget deficits in order to jump start the economy this year...they'll have to be paid off sooner or later! Not that I know anything about financial markets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 ComicInvestor's posts were extremely valuable. Although I still haven't seen anything remotely like a crash yet, except on the moderns...that was bound to happen, most everybody here knew that from the very beginning of CGC. And nobody knows exactly what effect the overall economy is having on current prices, except to say that it's generally lowering them. I know I'm buying less as a direct result of the job market for the IT industry. The aggressive attitude you allude to biased people against him, and it biased his own viewpoint as well. A common philosophical problem that adult males possess is that due to the excessive desire to prove themselves right, they almost never admit when they're wrong. Any woman will readily verify this for you. It causes some people distress to be even the LEAST bit wrong, and they'll argue/filibuster a point just to win what they see as an argument. I much prefer pure debate, where objective truth comes before the desire to prove yourself right even when faced with evidence to the contrary. Many men who history has deemed to call "great" suffer from that same problem...it's ego that drives you to be great, and it's too MUCH ego that also gets in the way of greatness. It's part of the reason that Hemingway and Kurt Cobain shot themselves with shotguns in the face (moreso Hemingway than Cobain), and it's part of the reason why guys like F. Scott Fitzgerald became alcoholics. Marlon Brando and Orson Welles had the same problem; their massive egos led to gluttony. Pride...it's the most common of the seven deadly sins that adult males suffer from on an hourly basis. Myself included; managing ego is a neverending effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 but I'm not so sure a 4K investment 10 years ago is worth 8K now... If you bought an S&P 500 index fund 10 years ago and had the restraint to hold it through thick and thin (and had managed to avoid the temptation to put all your money in tech stocks), you would be up about 110% plus dividends and less taxes. There is a "Rule of 72", which tells you how quickly capital doubles. Just divide your assumed rate of return into 72 and that's how long it takes for money to double. To double in 10 years, prices need to compound 72/10 = 7.2 percent per year. While this is below what you would have earned in the 1980s and 1990s, I don't see how you get that kind of return starting at the current low level of interest rates and high stock market valuations. Even if we finally get an up-year in 2003, the long-term fundamentals remain scary - too much leverage, too much capacity, too little pricing power, a collapsing dollar, rising geopolitical tensions and too little recognition of these problems. The government seems to think the best remedy for this economy is to cut taxes on the fiscal side and keep monetary policy loose on the Fed side so overleveraged consumers and businesses can become even more indebted and government deficits at all levels can balloon. This, my friends, will have catastrophic consequences later this decade, mark my words. I think it would be dangerous to assume that returns from all asset classes from this point forward will look anything like what we have seen during the secular bull market of 1982-2000. That includes returns for stocks, bonds, real estate and collectibles. For better or worse, we live in interesting and dangerous times. If the economy turns down even more (as I expect) later this decade, the last place you will want your savings is in less liquid asset classes like real estate or CGC books, IMHO. You won't see many financial planners or economists telling you this, but think about it - what else are they going to say? If they're bullish and wrong, they still have a job. If they're bearish and wrong, they're fired. Me, I don't care. You want balls? You got balls!! Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Well said... That "C" word is relative I suppose and the economy is hard to calculate into the equation... I'm just commenting on some of my observations of slowly declining prices, the shallow interest level on keys that used to enjoy deeper support, and my overall feeling in my gut that makes me more hesitant than usual when considering purchases... things feel a bit out of whack to me and I'm less confident of a turn around at the levels that I hoped for. Maybe Mike's point about the upcoming election and the efforts to improve the economy will yield some results. I'd like to see more people in general bidding... more new people as well. As for CI... I doubt you were saying he never admitted he was wrong or debated to arrive at the truth (or maybe you are)... but in his defense I recall him at least acknowledging that I made some good points in a few of our exchanges. I agree that "having to be right" gets in the way of arriving at the truth, answers or solutions and I've found that frustrating here at times (particularly in the CGC Label Note Removal Discussions). I too believe one should recognize when good points are made against one's argument or theories.. and also when they are flat out wrong or crossing a line. I had to suck it up and give props to those whose predictions about DD 131 supply in HG differed from mine, but were essentially realized. As for this debate, I want the answers about the storage issues and my proposed theory that a turn (improvement) may have occurred in the mid 70's (thus less Hulk 181's are out there in 9.4/9.6 than some suggested). It seems from the input so far, that the turn was probably a bit later ((late 70's -early 80's) for the vast majority. So far my theory is losing ground... doooh! But at least no one has called me a dope or insufficiently_thoughtful_person...yet. It also seems they were hoarded to some degree, but the evidence has not shown that they were hoarded and preserved in 9.4 or above so far. Now admit you've been off about the translucency issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I'm just commenting on some of my observations of slowly declining prices, the shallow interest level on keys that used to enjoy deeper support, and my overall feeling in my gut that makes me more hesitant than usual when considering purchases... I fully expect this trend to continue in the medium to long-term. HOWEVER, the market has picked up noticeably since the depths of last fall. I don't know how long this will last (probably not much beyond the summer, in any case), so I used this bounce to sell more of my extraneous books on eBay and off-line last week, with overall good results. I've noticed some new buyers on eBay lately as well, which again is a short-term positive. Gene (Short-Term Bullish, Long-Term Bearish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
