BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 ... I don't want to get you started down this road.. I'll get HatePM's. I'm glad to hear that you have noticed new bidders and are commenting on the slight upturn. Now end this with something positive and I'll be very happy BTW... should have sold that DD 168 9.6 W to my buyer for $1K months back and bought it back for $600 now... that would have greatly outperformed any of your investments percentage/time wise (no taxes)... but I know you are a true fan down deep. Few can see it though beyond your economic related commentary. I still cling to the theory that in the rare/ultra high grade market that many of these people are much less affected by the economy and are still looking to buy and improve their collections. Some may even take solace in the hobby if they are losing in other areas. I'll stck with that assumption as I have not noticed less activity on that front during the past year... maybe more even. Time will tell if the fecal really hits the spinning blades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbanner Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Rule of 7, Rule of 72...see, what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 You had me though I thought you were some market genius too. >>btw... keep taxes in mind in the stock vs. comics investment equation. There's a clear advantage with having collectbles profit<< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 keep taxes in mind in the stock vs. comics investment equation. There's a clear advantage with having collectbles profit Do you mean what I think you mean by that? The clear advantage that nobody wants to admit to publicly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 er... uh yeah I think. I'm not a business... yet. I believe 90%+ or so of collectors that sell sometimes (non-full time dealers) don't declare any profit made as income or pay taxes. I'm not even sure how that works as there are expenses and time involved. Some, like myself, primarily buy more books and build their collections, or trade (how do you tax a trade). I imagine its the same for collectors (not dealers) in every collectible market. or are you saying I should shut up and delete my last 3 posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awe4one Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 That may have been where I got the $25,000 number from but there was widespread news coverage of Action #1s selling in the early 70s regardless. This indicates a public awareness of old comics' value quite earlier than the timeframe some have mentioned here. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 It's like interest on your savings. You're supposed to report profit from sales of personal items on your taxes, even if you're not a business. But do individuals typically track what they paid for something and then what they sell it for? Nope. The line between hobbyist and business owner is a blurry one that tends to get defined more clearly--perhaps not the way you'd want--if you ever get audited. If there are any tax/business people here, please define this more clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbanner Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 If there are any tax/business people here, please define this more clearly. Or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 "If there are any tax/business people here, please define this more clearly. " Yeah, as Dr B said......."or not". Sometimes ignorance is bliss, and if you don't actually know that you are doing the wrong thing tax wise, then it's ok, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordanabigail Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Just to add a bit more to this thread...Unless a comic collector has been hiding under a rock for the last 3 years (even more if they knew about the success of the first X-Men animated show on Fox in the early 90's)...it would hard to not figure out that the X-Men and Wolverine in particular are "hot" books to own. If someone were to have bought 100 copies of Hulk 181 back in the day, I would think they had a definite understanding of the comic book world and might even still be collecting or at the very least following what is happening in the mainstream media. Who in their right mind would not want to capitalize on Wolvie's and the Hulk's popularity and sell 10 or 20 or 30 copies of this book...especially if they kept the book in NM condition. From experience I can honestly say that most of the books I bought for the very first time back in the late 70's and stored in bags and boards...when I revisted that collection about 10 years ago...they were definitley not in NM condition. I read them all about 10 times, bagged and then rebagged them a number of times, etc.. Sure, some really really smart people out there MIGHT own 100 copies of Hulk 181....but I think the odds of getting 9.6 or 9.8 copies out of that bunch are slim... I think the posters on this board are pretty well connected in the comics world and someone would have heard or seen another person's "100 hoarded" Hulk 181's...I know I have never met anyone who owns a ton of them... I still think this is THE book to own from the last 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 bronze forum bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolveroach-migration Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 i know of uncirculated pristine copies being owned by some folks but not in bulks of 100s, maybe multiple copies of max. 5 copies due to overstock discount clearance. But you better be fast, some do not cgced them and sold them for a couple of hundreds only, so gradually these bks would disappear or diminished from these owners, from those highly publicized to those who consigns or sold to comics stores & dealers. esp. so for bronze age comics from or after 1974-1975. good luck in collecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 Interesting to hear about the comic bags/boards not being used until the late 70's. That would be true for collectors only though I guess. Some comic shops I have been to don't use backing boards on back issues even NOW. So I think we can pretty much write off any copy of Hulk #181 that has ever been sold in a comic shop back issue section as making a 9.6 or 9.8 grade. So that just leaves the collectors/collections of books that have been in the same hands since release date. I wonder how many copies of those there can be.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Just to play Devil's Advocate here (please excuse the flippancy in advance): Who in their right mind would not want to capitalize on Wolvie's and the Hulk's popularity and sell 10 or 20 or 30 copies of this book... Well, on the other hand, one could also ask, "who in their right mind would pay thousands of dollars for a not-so-uncommon, even in grade, book from late 1974?" But, more to the point, if everyone thinks this book is destined for even further greatness, maybe the holders are, well, holding out for higher prices. Unless a comic collector has been hiding under a rock for the last 3 years A lot of collectors probably have been hiding under a rock the last 3 years...tons of people left the hobby in the 1990s and haven't come back. And, what about the possibility that there are copies out there in huge warehouses that their owners don't even know about? As I detailed earlier, I've seen that Neat Stuff, for example, has huge stacks of pristine copies of Bronze Marvels in inventory and I'm quite sure they don't even know everything they have. 10 years ago...they were definitley not in NM condition. This whole "when did people start bagging & boarding" analysis doesn't hold water for me at all. We've all seen 9.6 and 9.8 comics from much earlier than 1974 graded 9.6 and 9.8...if they managed to survive in that condition, why couldn't a shrewd speculator have stored their Hulk 181s in a smart fashion? someone would have heard or seen another person's "100 hoarded" Hulk 181's... Well, I don't know about you, but if I had 100 hoarded Hulk 181s, I sure as hell wouldn't let anybody know about it!!! Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Man_Of_Steel Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 A lot of collectors probably have been hiding under a rock the last 3 years...tons of people left the hobby in the 1990s and haven't come back. And, what about the possibility that there are copies out there in huge warehouses that their owners don't even know about? I don't know about warehouses, but if what Chuck said in the article that you posted (and I would bet he's right), then literally THOUSANDS of comic shops closed their doors in the mid-later 90's...back when Hulk 181 booked for "only" $300. Maybe they could see the future potential of Hulk 181, held onto the bulk of the best copies, and because they're out of the business/hobby, they havn't purchased much less looked at a guide in 10 years, and they know NOTHING about CGC. I ran into a former collecting friend recently that quit collecting about the same time I did, and he knew nothing about CGC...until I told him. IMO, a few folks are underestimating the fact that CGC has only been in the hobby for 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Hey MOS (nice to chat with ya)... I think it's 3 years... I asked them and they said they started Jan, 2000. Maybe it's been closer to 2.5 to 2.75 years of widespread use and knowledge of however. Time will tell... I would think that many closing comic shop owners would have be looking to cash in on the more valuable stock as many of them would have to have been struggling financially in the first place to close down? I'm sure a some gems were tucked away by some that were not as strapped as others (probably not valuable multiples though), but I figure they were trying to move as much inventory as they could to pay off debt, finance their next venture, or to live on until they had a new career going. I agree that a fair share of closing shop owners probably ended up keeping more of the less desirable stock they couldn't sell in hopes of someday cashing in a little better than 5¢ a book, but holding onto multiple HG valuable keys is hard for me to accept of someone in the position they seem to have been in. Since the hobby was in a down turn and heading for worse it seemed, it might have been tough for many to hold onto instant cash expecting a bigger payday years later. ..but most of this is only supposition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 "A lot of collectors probably have been hiding under a rock the last 3 years...tons of people left the hobby in the 1990s and haven't come back." True, but anyone who was collecting in the 90's would know that the Hulk 181 has value. I find it hard to believe that someone sitting on a hoard of NM copies of a book worth $200-$300 wouldn't continue to track its progress, especially after the media exposure this character has gotten from the cartoon, and the movie. Even if they weren't actively collecting, if they hoarded this book, it's likely for an investment. And what kind of an investor wouldn't check the status of his investment at least every couple of years. It's quite a stretch to say that this person wouldn't pick up a Wizard, or look in an Overstreet every once in a while. And if they did so in the last 3 years, they would know about the increase in value, and of CGC. "I've seen that Neat Stuff, for example, has huge stacks of pristine copies of Bronze Marvels in inventory and I'm quite sure they don't even know everything they have." But with their knowledge, I seriously doubt they would have a hoard of a major key in pristine condition without knowing about it. That's pretty far fetched. "Some 70's Thor" is quite a bit different from a Hulk 181. If they're so busy that they don't even realize they're sitting on a hoard of NM Hulk 181's, they should get out of this business. why couldn't a shrewd speculator have stored their Hulk 181s in a smart fashion?" So if these speculators are so shrewd, why would they let years pass without checking up on their investment? "Well, I don't know about you, but if I had 100 hoarded Hulk 181s, I sure as hell wouldn't let anybody know about it!!! " I agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Even if they weren't actively collecting, if they hoarded this book, it's likely for an investment. And what kind of an investor wouldn't check the status of his investment at least every couple of years. I didn't. I stopped collecting when I went to college in 1989, and didn't start back up until 2000. For those eleven years, I opened up my comic boxes once, and never looked up the prices of comics during that time. It was part of my thinking back in 1989...someday I'd look them up again and see what they were worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I think that happens to all of us at some point. But closing the lid on your collection, is not the same as doing so on a hoard. Again, I see no reason to hoard NM copies of a certain book unless it's for investment purposes, especially with a book like Hulk 181. The initial argument was centered around people leaving in the 90's. At that time, Hulk 181 was a $200-$300(?? correct me if I'm mistaken). I don't know what comics you had in 1989, or their value, but having a general collection stored in the closet(regarless of value) is not the same as a hoard of one key book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Man_Of_Steel Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I didn't. I stopped collecting when I went to college in 1989, and didn't start back up until 2000. For those eleven years, I opened up my comic boxes once, and never looked up the prices of comics during that time. It was part of my thinking back in 1989...someday I'd look them up again and see what they were worth. Me too. I stopped collecting in 1993, and came back to the hobby this past year (2002). I went for nine years without checking the value of my collection (or buying a guide). To be honest, I didn't even care what they were worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
