9.2 versus 9.6 Ethics versus Reality.

[COI]

I'm not going to argue whether or not there are more NM raw books available now than there were 10 years ago, because I was not buying then. But where are all these NM raw books that you're finding? I'm not asking to be argumentative, but in the last 4 years that I've been collecting high grade, I've found NM's to be getting consistently harder to find.

[Darthdiesel]

Once the youth is lost, there will be no future in the hobby.

 

I think the hobby can afford to lose youth like this one This one is doomed to p.iss his money away inevitably due to one stupid deal or another.

 

I find his talk with you highly improbable and borderline deceptive on his part. What 15 year old doesn't know of the internet and eBay? I can find an X-Men 101 for much less than $460 and in better condition, even slabbed condition and I'm nowhere near a BSD with easy connections...

 

So he rides a bike? He happen to ride this bike when he BOUGHT his 9.6 Xmen 101? Does he have a basket on this bike that can get the book home safe from any ding damage? Or did this dumbarse drive the bike home one handed while clutching the comic in a kung-fu death grip? He's lucky he still got a 9.2, if this was the case. He may even have thought about sticking it between the spokes of his wheel to make cool sounds like we did with baseball cards back then

[nik]

I think the hobby can afford to lose youth like this one

 

I can find an X-Men 101 for much less than $460 and in better condition, even slabbed condition and I'm nowhere near a BSD with easy connections...

 

Or did this dumbarse drive the bike home one handed while clutching the comic in a kung-fu death grip? doh:

 

Right On!

[NoImSpartacus]

So he rides a bike? He happen to ride this bike when he BOUGHT his 9.6 Xmen 101? Does he have a basket on this bike that can get the book home safe from any ding damage? Or did this dumbarse drive the bike home one handed while clutching the comic in a kung-fu death grip? He's lucky he still got a 9.2, if this was the case. He may even have thought about sticking it between the spokes of his wheel to make cool sounds like we did with baseball cards back then

 

Point well taken!! I seen all types of 15 year olds. Some that act 20 and others that act 10. I think we both know that at that age anything goes as to what the kid would be thinking.

[Darthdiesel]

Im surprised by many of the cold hearted responses here from comics collectors, who, if if it were THEM in this kid's shoes, would (if answering honestly) be starting their own threads here bashing the dealer and seeking sympathy and methods of seeking recompense!! Right? We see lots of these threads of one of us collectors getting ripped off. But according to many of you, its this "stupid kid's" fault almost entirely for putting his trust in the figure of authority - - the store owner. I suppose if it were your son, youd just tell him "See, I hope you learned your lesson!" ??

 

 

I was that kid once .... never again School of hard knocks - summa c.u.m. (as in Latin for "with" - gotta love that censor )laude Class of 86-89!

[Darthdiesel]

My cold hearted response is mainly because the dealer actually went above and beyond the call of duty to reconcile a situation in which he had no such obligation.

 

My cold hearted response is that I can't stand idiocy at any level and I'm the same guy who would have given kids like this wedgies, just for being the dumbarses that they are... is that so wrong? Maybe I'm just a heartless SOB and now my eyes have been opened to a new way of dealing ...targeting sucker kids with more $$4 than they know what to do with

[greggy]

My cold hearted response is mainly because the dealer actually went above and beyond the call of duty to reconcile a situation in which he had no such obligation.

 

My cold hearted response is that I can't stand idiocy at any level and I'm the same guy who would have given kids like this wedgies, just for being the dumbarses that they are... is that so wrong? Maybe I'm just a heartless SOB and now my eyes have been opened to a new way of dealing ...targeting sucker kids with more $$4 than they know what to do with

Don't you deal with their grown up versions when you sell your crappy moderns to them?

[GOODBYE!-migration]

Im surprised by many of the cold hearted responses here from comics collectors, who, if if it were THEM in this kid's shoes, would (if answering honestly) be starting their own threads here bashing the dealer and seeking sympathy and methods of seeking recompense!! Right?

 

Wrong. I recently bought a nice copy of a silver age sleeper key from a well known dealer. The book was sold to me as a 9.0. When it arrived, I thought the 9.0 was iffy, but possible. Maybe an 8.5. So I didn't send the book back because I was reasonably satisfied with the grade.

 

A few months later, I send the book in to CGC for grading. It comes back an 8.0 because of a stain that I didn't see on the dark cover. The book is now worth about a third of what I paid for it.

 

Blacklights I think are less than $25 at party stores, which reminds me I better get one soon if I am going to submit any more books. Pretty sure a stain would show up as it would reflect differently than the untouched gloss. If you are thinking of sending to cgc you should probably use some of the same methods they do and not wing it unless you are the gambling sort. That is why CGC high grades get the premium but NOT raw because in addition to 3 people agreeing on the grade they go the extra mile to make sure they are not missing things like hidden stains or heavens forbid RESTORATION(A), which could be something as little as a marker touch up.

 

Not saying the dealer was right or wrong, just that any grade by just One person is just a best guess; on anything over $500 it is probably worth it to spend $100 and get the walkthrough/express with fedex if there is a return period. Better yet just never pay the premium for uncertified books unless you really like the book regardless of what CGC says.

 

The book is now worth about a third of what I paid for it.

 

only if you are trying to flip it.

 

There is always a strong correlation between risk and return, with nothing ever having an "easy" return without significant investment in time or money or larger amounts of risk, all of which negate the whole concept of easy. If slabbing was riskfree there woulc be no money in it as Everyone would be doing it.

[GOODBYE!-migration]

Once the youth is lost, there will be no future in the hobby.

 

Look what happened to the whole coin hobby when more and more people(coin newbies) realized that the three-legged buffalo nickel or "GEM Mint" Morgan dollar, etc, they had bought with their summer savings had been nothing but a filed down 4 legger or a wizzed EF instead?

 

Don't see that many new people getting into coin collecting these days other than slabbed or something like state quarters. Otherwise its pretty pokey over all

 

Even people with the means don't want to jump back into a hobby that burned so many people whether it be cards, coins or beanie babies. I remember one story I don't remember if it was here or over at pcgs where one dealer had to break this poor old lady's heart by telling her the coins she had spent $5K on were only worth $600 due to gross over grading; off couse he could only offer her less than half as that as that was $600 Retail.

 

What right do you have to sell raw with an insane premium if you can't even provide spot on grading? What are people paying these premiums if not for expertise? If it is for eye appeal that is one thing, but the comic should be accurately graded whatever you charge for it. 9.4's with really nice PQ, that seem to glow with a certain specialness deserve premium prices but that doesn't make them 9.6's, physical condition makes them 9.6's.

 

I hope the comic hobby can do better but it is only going to do it by not grossly over-grading. Price it whatever you want but don't make the price inflate the grade.

 

BTBNTL

[Darthdiesel]

I was curious so I asked, “What lessons have you learned”.

Do you know what the answer from the kid was????

NEVER TRUST A COMIC BOOK DEALER, EVER AGAIN. He says “I lost a large amount of money because I trusted someone who is supposed take care of me as a customer in both grading and advice when I come in his store. Instead, I end up with a sticker grade that a "Maybe" and get hurt for lots of money. So much for comic books.

Interesting words huh?

 

The kid’s problem is only a mirror of what many of us are dealing with today.

 

Pardon me while I play the bad guy again.

 

The kid's problem is that he had dollar signs in his eyes when he saw a 9.6 for sale for $460. He thought he'd get it graded and it would be worth $750 (leaving the dealer short $300).

 

What did this "poor kid" really want? A copy of X-Men #101? Or a CGC slab with a 9.6 on it? I don't buy his sob story about wanting the book because of watching X-Men 2. If that were the case, he would have just bought the book and probably would not have sent it to CGC. This kid is way too sophisticated (if he's sending books in to CGC in the first place) to be as dumb as he's pretending to be.

 

He wants to leave the hobby? Buh-bye. All he cares about is the money anyway.

 

I'm still not done reading this thread but this one...

[Darthdiesel]

Wrong. I recently bought a nice copy of a silver age sleeper key from a well known dealer. The book was sold to me as a 9.0. When it arrived, I thought the 9.0 was iffy, but possible. Maybe an 8.5. So I didn't send the book back because I was reasonably satisfied with the grade.

 

A few months later, I send the book in to CGC for grading. It comes back an 8.0 because of a stain that I didn't see on the dark cover. The book is now worth about a third of what I paid for it.

 

Did I demand a refund? No. Did I start a thread about it to bash the seller? ...

 

 

It's never too late to name names ...

[Darthdiesel]

the reality is when you go out and pay over guide for books based on the hope that the raw 9.6 will be a CGC 9.6 about 99% of the time you will feel the pain right in the ol pooper ....

 

from what I've read so far, some of you guys got some downright overused and abused poopers ... Don't forget the KY along with your next order of boards and mylars

[Darthdiesel]

My cold hearted response is mainly because the dealer actually went above and beyond the call of duty to reconcile a situation in which he had no such obligation.

 

My cold hearted response is that I can't stand idiocy at any level and I'm the same guy who would have given kids like this wedgies, just for being the dumbarses that they are... is that so wrong? Maybe I'm just a heartless SOB and now my eyes have been opened to a new way of dealing ...targeting sucker kids with more $$$ than they know what to do with

Don't you deal with their grown up versions when you sell your crappy moderns to them?

 

 

Evil... thy name is Greggy ...

 

But when I call it a 9.6, it always is ... or their money back with no muss or fuss ... and if it is a pricey book, you can bet it'll be slabbed before I go and mark it that high and not expect to get laughed at by my peers.

[sborock]

Once the youth is lost, there will be no future in the hobby.

 

Look what happened to the whole coin hobby when more and more people(coin newbies) realized that the three-legged buffalo nickel or "GEM Mint" Morgan dollar, etc, they had bought with their summer savings had been nothing but a filed down 4 legger or a wizzed EF instead?

 

Don't see that many new people getting into coin collecting these days other than slabbed or something like state quarters. Otherwise its pretty pokey over all

 

Even people with the means don't want to jump back into a hobby that burned so many people whether it be cards, coins or beanie babies. I remember one story I don't remember if it was here or over at pcgs where one dealer had to break this poor old lady's heart by telling her the coins she had spent $5K on were only worth $600 due to gross over grading; off couse he could only offer her less than half as that as that was $600 Retail.

 

What right do you have to sell raw with an insane premium if you can't even provide spot on grading? What are people paying these premiums if not for expertise? If it is for eye appeal that is one thing, but the comic should be accurately graded whatever you charge for it. 9.4's with really nice PQ, that seem to glow with a certain specialness deserve premium prices but that doesn't make them 9.6's, physical condition makes them 9.6's.

 

I hope the comic hobby can do better but it is only going to do it by not grossly over-grading. Price it whatever you want but don't make the price inflate the grade.

 

BTBNTL

 

I have been told that the coin hobby id "Hotter than ever before" by buyer's and seller's alike. I know NGC has never been more swamped......

[delekkerste]

I have been told that the coin hobby id "Hotter than ever before" by buyer's and seller's alike. I know NGC has never been more swamped......

 

A very large portion of the coin market is still underwater from the bubble market of 1989-1990. These are losses that will NEVER be fully recouped (as I have detailed in both words and pictures in previous posts).

[drbanner]

I have been told that the coin hobby id "Hotter than ever before" by buyer's and seller's alike. I know NGC has never been more swamped......

 

A very large portion of the coin market is still underwater from the bubble market of 1989-1990. These are losses that will NEVER be fully recouped (as I have detailed in both words and pictures in previous posts).

 

Thanks guys, it's good to know the coin hobby is thriving, even after TG(Coin)C of '90 drove the "insufficiently_thoughtful_person speculators" and their disinterested $$ away!

 

I think we can all learn a lot about comics with this analogy. In fact, this pattern has already shown itself in our hobby after TG(Modern)C of '02 when high grade late bronze/moderns in 9.6 plummeted nearly 40% before stabilizing. Now, I don't know if the losses will EVER be fully recouped, but it's quite obvious from the graph below (courtesy of The Comic Sheet) that TGC of '02 didn't spell the deathknell for interest in these books. The fate of the late silver/early bronze index is still up in the air, but prices are currently slightly higher than they were in May of '02, and 20% above where they were after TGC of '02.

 

Ponder this...

 

[Red Hook]

Coins are not comics.

 

When did they last make a movie about a coin?

 

When was there a billboard in Times Square promoting a coin?

 

How many animated tv shows have there been about the Jefferson Nickel?

 

How many kids dress up as a Mercury Dime at Halloween?

 

You can only go so far in comparing one to the other. There are tons more variables that drive the comic collecting market. Comics are a form of popular culture. The factors that make a comic (and yes, even a high end collectible) desireable as a collectible are so widespread, it would be hard for the entire field to suffer a plunge.

[FlyingDonut]

How many animated tv shows have there been about the Jefferson Nickel?

 

Now that would be amusing. You're the high tech graphics guy - GET BUSY.

[drbanner]

Coins are not comics.

 

When did they last make a movie about a coin?

I can see it now, "FDR, the True Story", a captivating tale of how the Mercury Dime was supplanted in 20th Century America!!

 

You can only go so far in comparing one to the other. There are tons more variables that drive the comic collecting market. Comics are a form of popular culture. The factors that make a comic (and yes, even a high end collectible) desireable as a collectible are so widespread, it would be hard for the entire field to suffer a plunge.

You mean I can't compare today's comic book market with the tulip mania that occurred a long, long, time ago in a country far, far away? You don't say!

[NoImSpartacus]

I have been told that the coin hobby id "Hotter than ever before" by buyer's and seller's alike. I know NGC has never been more swamped......

 

A very large portion of the coin market is still underwater from the bubble market of 1989-1990. These are losses that will NEVER be fully recouped (as I have detailed in both words and pictures in previous posts).

 

 

Can I add the GREAT loss of those from 1978 to end 1983 in the destruction of the gold and silver markets and soon the FIRST Slabbing of coins where MS 65s became MS 63s which turned $ 1000 coins into $ 300 coins and so on down the line. I deal very much in the coin world, comic world, and militaria world. All 3 types of people have totally different psychological profiles. (Who knows what that makes me!!)? Yet, all 3 markets closely parallel each other in that they all have cycles with the reasoning in those cycles very closely paralleling each other. Its basically the same routine, the only thing that differs is the item.