Why has a better grading system never been introduced ?

[speople]

The single biggest bone of contention regarding any comic book is that of its grade. Especially since comics now sell for literally millions of dollars.

 

So why on earth hasn't there been a better (or should I say more advanced/defineable) grading system implemented since its initial inception. As the system as it stands now is almost entirely up to individual point of view (like an artistic impression score in figure skating) rather than a set standard (the technical score in figure skating).

 

What's needed is a grading system that can easily be understood and practiced industry wide by both the professional grader and the average joe who is just interested in what grade his comics are, without any meaningful contention as to what the final grade is ?

 

I've heard people over the years argue that this flaw is worth less than that flaw etc, but again, it is more or less down to personal choice. However, imo, any flaw is still a flaw. Therefore mottling, foxing, spine stress, creases, tears, spine rolls, date stamps etc, they should all be treated with the same deduction as they all deface the look of the comic from its original state.

 

A comic book is 26cm x 17 cm. Which gives an area of 44200mm front and the same back. (88400).

 

If one therefore supposes an initial 100k (millimetric) grading scale (which would be divided to either 100 or 1000 once the final assessment hs been made).

 

Then a coverless comic, is graded at best, as, 11600 (100k - 88.4k) or depending whether a 100 or 1000 point scale is used (I prefer 100 myself) as either 11.6 or 1.16

 

Regardless of size, (silver and golden age and treasury). This would be the standard deduction for a coverless comic. Though further deductions could still be made for other flaws in that comic upto a standardised mimimum (which would either be a score of 1 or 10 depending upon the scale used)

 

Chips and (or) missing pieces, dust shadows, foxing etc, measure the area, multiply and deduct. (One might argue that even with a dust shadow, ,at least that part of the comic is still there, unlike a missing piece, however it is still an unsightly (and often large) detraction from a comic's look and appeal, and I say treat it in exactly the same manner since it is still going to score a lot of points for the portion of the cover that is still there and flaw free.

 

Creases, dings, measure the length(s) in mm on ALL pages and deduct. Spine stresses, measure the lengths and deduct.

 

Off white to cream pages, standard 10 point deduction. (This is for the whole comic not each page). Cream pages 20. Cream to tan 30. Tan to brown 40. Brown 50.

 

Spine rolls, measure how much it is has rolled in mm in area, then deduct.

 

Writing, measure its area and deduct.

 

Blunted corners. Standard 10 point deduction per corner.

 

Cover gloss loss. Low loss, standard 10 point deduction. Medium loss 20 point deduction. High loss 30 point deduction.

 

Water damage, measure the area of each page in mm and deduct.

 

In the main, by treating each flaw as just a measurable flaw and then subtracting each one from the initial maximum score. One completely does away with subjective grading altogether (the major bone of contention) and arrives at an industry wide accepted, easily understood and easily measured standard.

 

Thoughts ??

[dopy02]

lead balloon

[DougC]

regardless of how mechanical you try and make the system any type of grading is subjective. It all comes down to the devil you know, and your personal choice in what is and is not a flaw you would be willing to accept in a book you purchase.

[Underground44]

If you made this grading system the standard it would just cause more debate. Why aren't blunted corners 15 points less? Why aren't cream pages 50 points less? You see what I mean?

 

As the poster above me said, grading is ALWAYS subjective. Even with a mechanical grading standard everyone will still have their views on what's right and wrong - and rightly so. Personally I'm happy with the job CGC does at the moment.

[fantastic_four]

As the poster above me said, grading is ALWAYS subjective.

 

Yes, but that doesn't mean that a majority of knowledgeable collectors can't agree on a controversial grading point. Your hypothesis appears to be that people cannot agree, but there are thousands of examples of standards across industries where people still make a best effort to do so in the interest of a standard. The answer to the original question is that nobody who cares enough to establish a more exacting grading standard has bothered to do so yet. Maybe someone will, maybe they won't. It would be quite a bit of work developing the standard, introducing it publicly, navigating the hobby's politics, and doing the marketing required for it to become accepted; I'm sure it would take quite a lot of work and time to accomplish. Also, there's little or no financial incentive to do it, which is the real driving reason it hasn't been done yet. The best person to do it would be someone who is already making a living from the hobby, but refining the grading standard would really be a side thing that would take time away from managing and marketing their inventory. Doing this type of work would help a comics professional out by helping them to become more well-known--which would itself be one of the political challenges as some dealers would always resist a standard because they would myopically oversimplify it as helping out someone who is essentially a competitor of theirs. CGC has likely done it to maintain consistency amongst their graders, but to date they appear to believe it's against their interests to make their standards public. I bet their standards are communicated amongst themselves verbally and that they haven't documented their standards, although I have no direct knowledge that their standards aren't written.

[Dr. Balls]

What's needed is a grading system that can easily be understood and practiced industry wide by both the professional grader and the average joe who is just interested in what grade his comics are, without any meaningful contention as to what the final grade is ?

 

 

"Where are you living? Are you here? Are you on this planet? It's impossible. It can't be done. Dozens of years people have been trying to have their cake and eat it too. So all of a sudden you are going to come along and do it. Where do you get the ego? No one can do it. It can't be done."

 

Chips and (or) missing pieces, dust shadows, foxing etc, measure the area, multiply and deduct. (One might argue that even with a dust shadow, ,at least that part of the comic is still there, unlike a missing piece, however it is still an unsightly (and often large) detraction from a comic's look and appeal, and I say treat it in exactly the same manner since it is still going to score a lot of points for the portion of the cover that is still there and flaw free.

 

 

"That's pretty good. Go ahead. I have tell you, I'm pretty impressed with the first one."

 

Cover gloss loss. Low loss, standard 10 point deduction. Medium loss 20 point deduction. High loss 30 point deduction.

 

 

 

"No, you see? You got greedy.

 

One thing I do know is that everyone's opinion on cover gloss is different. It could be a UV double coated cover on 16pt King James Gloss, but if someone else thinks it's "medium gloss" because they want to, you've got problems with the grading scale.

[speople]

What's needed is a grading system that can easily be understood and practiced industry wide by both the professional grader and the average joe who is just interested in what grade his comics are, without any meaningful contention as to what the final grade is ?

 

 

"Where are you living? Are you here? Are you on this planet? It's impossible. It can't be done. Dozens of years people have been trying to have their cake and eat it too. So all of a sudden you are going to come along and do it. Where do you get the ego? No one can do it. It can't be done."

 

What ego ? I'm only saying that the current grading system, although not bad, still has a lot of flaws. There was no "I propose" or "the following should be adopted" anywhere in my post. It was simply an idea.

 

As for impossible, that's quite a big word. Within reason, there isn't much that isn't possible.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

 

As for impossible, that's quite a big word. Within reason, there isn't much that isn't possible.

 

 

It is impossible simply because different collectors perceive defects differently.

 

For example, I notice you included date stamps. To me they are a part of the comic book distribution process and also very desirable from a historical perspective. Now a huge, poorly placed (like on a key part of the cover) I would pass by. But were I given a choice between a book with a small, nicely placed date stamp and one without, in the same condition? I'd prefer the stamp.And would not consider the book to be in any less condition for the stamp.

[speople]

 

As for impossible, that's quite a big word. Within reason, there isn't much that isn't possible.

 

 

It is impossible simply because different collectors perceive defects differently.

 

For example, I notice you included date stamps. To me they are a part of the comic book distribution process and also very desirable from a historical perspective. Now a huge, poorly placed (like on a key part of the cover) I would pass by. But were I given a choice between a book with a small, nicely placed date stamp and one without, in the same condition? I'd prefer the stamp.And would not consider the book to be in any less condition for the stamp.

 

Doing the vast majority of my collecting in England, I have quite a few of those date stamps in my collection. They are quite big, and in black ink, and were placed anywhere. I would rather a book without, than with.

[PovertyRow]

Doing the vast majority of my collecting in England, I have quite a few of those date stamps in my collection. They are quite big, and in black ink, and were placed anywhere. I would rather a book without, than with.

 

I said "a small, nicely placed date stamp." You said "They are quite big, and in black ink, and were placed anywhere." As I said - different collectors come with different perceptions.

 

[divad]

Thoughts ??

 

Some day computers will know how to play chess and cars will be powered by electricity . . .

[thehumantorch]

The Overstreet grading guides were an attempt to standardize grading, identify defects allowed at each grade, and illustrate the grades and defects through many pictures. While not perfect they were definitely helpful and an evolutionary step towards consensus grading.

 

That being said I don't believe it is possible to create the perfect grading system for three dimensional, paper books considering the wide variety of defects and severity of defects.

[Kevin.J]

 

 

[mintcollector]

CGC would love this idea! Let's see I own about one hundred high grade slabs. At what, how much per slab to have all these books regraded? Then let's not forget about my 'obsession' to reholder every few years...

 

Wish this was a public company. I would 'push' for this idea, all while buying a few shares here and there...

 

Come to think of it, they need to find new grading systems for coins and paper money as well. That way, I can profit from PMG and NGC as well. Darn, I am really on the wrong side of this equation. I should OWN the grading company, not the product. Now I get it...

 

To be serious though, I do think the current grading system is near perfect. Attempting to apply mathematical measurements and equations to a subjective 'art' can be meaningless...

 

'mint'

[SSRYC-migration]

Does CGC take "eye appeal" into consideration? It seems that we've lost that portion of the grade. The miswraps CGC allows can be rather fugly.

[koollectablz]

I've never really understood the latitude that cgc and by extension a large group of collectors give for any after published added stamps or writing or even distribution ink stains.

 

A date stamp is added to a cover, but not ALL covers have them added, ergo date stamp should be a defect.

 

Same for ANY kind of writing - from Stan Lee's autograph to Edgar Chruch's writing, to Larson and beyond.

 

Same rule for distributor ink, some copies have terrible staining but some have none, therefore it's a defect.

 

The comic has been defaced. BUT some will exist without the defacement, so they should (all other things being equal) be graded higher.

[Dr. Balls]

I've never really understood the latitude that cgc and by extension a large group of collectors give for any after published added stamps or writing or even distribution ink stains.

 

A date stamp is added to a cover, but not ALL covers have them added, ergo date stamp should be a defect.

 

Same for ANY kind of writing - from Stan Lee's autograph to Edgar Chruch's writing, to Larson and beyond.

 

Same rule for distributor ink, some copies have terrible staining but some have none, therefore it's a defect.

 

The comic has been defaced. BUT some will exist without the defacement, so they should (all other things being equal) be graded higher.

 

I don't think it should be graded down, but it then becomes personal preference of the buyer. I won't buy SA books with writing on the cover. It just bugs the hell out of me for some reason, so I avoid it. And in some cases, I will pay a premium for books that look nicer in a grade than others. I like the flexibility of the grading that they have.

[PovertyRow]

I've never really understood the latitude that cgc and by extension a large group of collectors give for any after published added stamps or writing or even distribution ink stains.

 

A date stamp is added to a cover, but not ALL covers have them added, ergo date stamp should be a defect.

 

Same for ANY kind of writing - from Stan Lee's autograph to Edgar Chruch's writing, to Larson and beyond.

 

Same rule for distributor ink, some copies have terrible staining but some have none, therefore it's a defect.

 

The comic has been defaced. BUT some will exist without the defacement, so they should (all other things being equal) be graded higher.

 

A process such as an arrival stamp, distributor spray etc is part of the chain getting some books to the initial retail market, therefore it should not be a defect.

[koollectablz]

I'd agree if every book was treated like that. But it's possible to get at least one copy of any one book without, date stamps, writing or dist ink.

 

Therefore that book must grade higher than any with those after additions. JMHO.

[Tony S]

I'd agree if every book was treated like that. But it's possible to get at least one copy of any one book without, date stamps, writing or dist ink.

 

Therefore that book must grade higher than any with those after additions. JMHO.

 

Some of us that consider ourselves "historians" actually prefer neat and unobtrusive date stamps. It tells you when a book was actually on the stands and for sale. Publishers would try to get more shelf life for their books by the cover date being months later than the distribution date. Annuals often only listed the year

 

For instance, it is the arrival dates that tell us that Strange Tales annual #2 is the fourth appearance of Spider-Man.

 

Machine language translators (like Babblefish) never do as good a job at translating languages as a human native language speaker because the programs basically translate one word or phrase at a time. They cannot look at the entire convesation and capture context and intent as a native language translator does.

 

So to a mechanical or mathmatical grading formula would mostly fail. It would only be able to score for individual areas, subtract for individual "flaws". But it would completely lack the ability to stand back and look at the book as a whole. Which is what grading is ultimately about - assessing the overall appearance of a book.

 

This debate is not new. In the past the OPG would try to establish that certain defects dictated a certain grade. A popped staple or a spine split greater than 1 1/4 inches equaled VG. But then you look at the entire book. You have an otherwise NM book with a 1 1/2 inch spine split and the average VG with wear, creases and spine roll sitting side by side at a show. Guess which one sells first? Guess which one will sell for more money? The one with the nicer appearance of course. Nicer appearance and worth more money needs to equal a higher grade, or grading has no purpose.