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Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated
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Started by bgraves-migration,

1,496 posts in this topic

Nexus

Nexus

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Posted
Defense is a big deal, ill agree there. But the Angels finished third this year if im not mistaken. Take Trout out and where do the Angels finish?? Im thinking still third. Take Cabrera away from the Tigers and where do they finish?? Not first and not in the Playoffs.

 

Not very meaningful. But if you want to play "what ifs"...

 

Take Verlander away from the Tigers, and where do they finish?

 

Put the Angels and Tigers in the same division...which team finishes ahead?

 

 

Fine ill play that game.

 

Take Jarod Weaver out of the angels, where do they finish?? Still not in the playoffs AND not in THIRD place but even closer to the bottom.

 

Fact is they dont play in the same division so that point is irrelevant.

 

Nice try though. There is a new thread about CCG so ill be reading that for now on.

 

You're making my point. You started this by discussing hypothetical situations. I'm suggesting we stick to what actually happened. If you want to ignore the other points (Trout being a better defender, Trout being a better base runner, Trout playing in a tougher division) then fine. The pro-Cabrera argument rests with his having the most HRs, the most RBIs and the highest batting average. He absolutely gets credit for HRs (although a player's home park, where he plays half his games, should be considered). RBI and batting average, though, are seriously outdated stats, with RBI being mostly meaningless, and with more accurate metrics than BA for a hitter's efficiency. I won't bore you with the advanced metrics, but suffice it to say, Trout and Cabrera have similar value as hitters. Add in defense and running and it's not even close.

 

The MVP vote takes place before the postseason, so your suggestion that Cabrera got his team to the WS should also be irrelevant. But if we go with your premise...did he really? The Tigers made it to the postseason, but their pitching (especially Verlander) got them through the ALDS and the ALCS. Cabrera was a non-factor. He also struck out to end the WS.

 

Anyway, I've been reading through this thread, because the main topic is something I'm interested in. Sorry to derail with the baseball talk...I'm not an Angels fan (can't stand 'em, in fact), but am a die-hard baseball fan so had to speak up on the MVP vote.

 

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namisgr

namisgr

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As a die hard baseball fan, you know that historically the MVP is nearly always selected from a pennant winning (or, more recently, division winning) team. You also know how extraordinary it is to have won the triple crown.

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Nexus

Nexus

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Posted
As a die hard baseball fan, you know that historically the MVP is nearly always selected from a pennant winning (or, more recently, division winning) team. You also know how extraordinary it is to have won the triple crown.

 

This is ironic since the entire point of this thread appears to be (for most, at least) not taking everything at face value. In much the same way that a pitcher's wins don't mean what they use to (traditionalists commence gnashing of teeth), the Triple Crown no longer carries the same cachet given a more advanced understanding of a hitter's value. Miguel Cabrera is an awesome power hitter. If the award is Best Hitter, there wouldn't be the same debate. Most Valuable PLAYER should consider all facets of a player's game. DHs, historically, don't win MVP.

 

To tie it into comics...buy the book, not the label.

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HOTFLIPS

HOTFLIPS

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Posted
Defense is a big deal, ill agree there. But the Angels finished third this year if im not mistaken. Take Trout out and where do the Angels finish?? Im thinking still third. Take Cabrera away from the Tigers and where do they finish?? Not first and not in the Playoffs.

 

Not very meaningful. But if you want to play "what ifs"...

 

Take Verlander away from the Tigers, and where do they finish?

 

Put the Angels and Tigers in the same division...which team finishes ahead?

 

 

Fine ill play that game.

 

Take Jarod Weaver out of the angels, where do they finish?? Still not in the playoffs AND not in THIRD place but even closer to the bottom.

 

Fact is they dont play in the same division so that point is irrelevant.

 

Nice try though. There is a new thread about CCG so ill be reading that for now on.

 

You're making my point. You started this by discussing hypothetical situations. I'm suggesting we stick to what actually happened. If you want to ignore the other points (Trout being a better defender, Trout being a better base runner, Trout playing in a tougher division) then fine. The pro-Cabrera argument rests with his having the most HRs, the most RBIs and the highest batting average. He absolutely gets credit for HRs (although a player's home park, where he plays half his games, should be considered). RBI and batting average, though, are seriously outdated stats, with RBI being mostly meaningless, and with more accurate metrics than BA for a hitter's efficiency. I won't bore you with the advanced metrics, but suffice it to say, Trout and Cabrera have similar value as hitters. Add in defense and running and it's not even close.

 

The MVP vote takes place before the postseason, so your suggestion that Cabrera got his team to the WS should also be irrelevant. But if we go with your premise...did he really? The Tigers made it to the postseason, but their pitching (especially Verlander) got them through the ALDS and the ALCS. Cabrera was a non-factor. He also struck out to end the WS.

 

Anyway, I've been reading through this thread, because the main topic is something I'm interested in. Sorry to derail with the baseball talk...I'm not an Angels fan (can't stand 'em, in fact), but am a die-hard baseball fan so had to speak up on the MVP vote.

 

I appreciate your passion. I, too am an avid baseball fan.

 

Outdated stats is a matter of opinion. While you consider it outdated, i dont. Just my view against yours. Just the writers opinions versus each others. They voted Cabrera the MVP, so as far as saying outdated, its not that outdated yet apparently.

 

I didnt start this thread with hypotheticals, check the thread. I played the hypotheticals because it was presented before me.

 

OK, so the fact that Cabrera didnt get his team to the WS, fine ill give you that. He did take them to the playoffs to get them to the WS. Fair enough now??

 

Trout is a better baserunner and a better defensive player. Fact. If Trout stole 100 bases this year and Pujols didnt drive him in, then how good was he?? Still awesome but not in the same debate we are having.

 

I think Trout is a tremendous player and if he consistantly puts up numbers like this he should be a HOFer, but like i said, Cabrera wond the Triple Crown and got his team to the post season, i really dont see the debate in this.

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Nexus

Nexus

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I think Trout is a tremendous player and if he consistantly puts up numbers like this he should be a HOFer, but like i said, Cabrera wond the Triple Crown and got his team to the post season, i really dont see the debate in this.

 

:foryou:

 

Where we disagree is on the relevance of the Triple Crown and if one individual player can be credited solely for an entire team's success.

 

The Triple Crown is undeniably sexy, especially for those of us who grew up studying the backs of baseball cards. But it's an incomplete picture. Yes, Runs Scored is a dependent, correlative stat. Just like Runs Batted In. If you're saying Trout doesn't score any runs if not for his teammates driving him in...well then, Cabrera doesn't drive in runs without his teammates getting on base, either. And while both are correlative, RS > RBI.

 

Do the Tigers make it to the WS without Cabrera? Probably not. But they also don't make it without Don Kelly (he of the sac fly to win Game 2 of the ALDS). Every player contributes...it's not all because of one player.

 

Change is hard. RBI used to be my favorite stat for a hitter. A player's defense and base running should matter. The pitcher with the most wins used to be a shoo-in for the Cy Young. But I'll agree to disagree here. In all seriousness, congrats to Miguel Cabrera and Tigers fans.

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Nexus

Nexus

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Sports couch potato's like to grab their bats, talk about balls and dream of stuffing it.

 

lol

 

Actually, I still play in an over-30 hardball league. Which is not to say I don't grab my bat, talk about balls, or dream of stuffing it. I'm also married.

 

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HOTFLIPS

HOTFLIPS

Posted
Posted
I think Trout is a tremendous player and if he consistantly puts up numbers like this he should be a HOFer, but like i said, Cabrera wond the Triple Crown and got his team to the post season, i really dont see the debate in this.

 

:foryou:

 

Where we disagree is on the relevance of the Triple Crown and if one individual player can be credited solely for an entire team's success.

 

The Triple Crown is undeniably sexy, especially for those of us who grew up studying the backs of baseball cards. But it's an incomplete picture. Yes, Runs Scored is a dependent, correlative stat. Just like Runs Batted In. If you're saying Trout doesn't score any runs if not for his teammates driving him in...well then, Cabrera doesn't drive in runs without his teammates getting on base, either. And while both are correlative, RS > RBI.

 

Do the Tigers make it to the WS without Cabrera? Probably not. But they also don't make it without Don Kelly (he of the sac fly to win Game 2 of the ALDS). Every player contributes...it's not all because of one player.

 

Change is hard. RBI used to be my favorite stat for a hitter. A player's defense and base running should matter. The pitcher with the most wins used to be a shoo-in for the Cy Young. But I'll agree to disagree here. In all seriousness, congrats to Miguel Cabrera and Tigers fans.

 

Fair enough.

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Nexus

Nexus

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I guess this has become a thread about sports ???

 

Sorry! However, the two conversations do dovetail with regards to how we perceive historically accepted "facts" (which is maybe the point Dale was trying to make when he first brought up the MVP vote in this thread?). Some choose to go along with the status quo and others choose to dig deeper. Each side of each respective debate may not budge, but the discussion may be helpful to someone on the sidelines. I used to be a heavy buyer of high-grade slabs. I didn't participate much here on the boards back around 2005, when it seemed like the pressing issue really emerged (along with the Ewert scandal), but reading about it was enough to help me make up my mind about that segment of the hobby. I left. No regrets. So while I recognize that this discussion can be circular, I don't see it as valueless. The information may be old for most of you, but it's not for everyone.

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