Am I the only one that noticed this Superman #149 9.6 that sold for 22 x guide?!

[joe_collector]

Whatever, Ted-ster! Or maybe we should start calling you "Rough Rider", you big brute you!

 

Well, since you're agreeing 100% with Shadroch, please tell us (in detail) exactly why you feel that 100% of ALL COMIC RETURNS were done using the "top-ripping" methodology, and that 0% of returns exist with their cover intact.

 

I await this compelling evidence with great anticipation...

[tth2]

Whatever, Ted-ster! Or maybe we should start calling you "Rough Rider", you big brute you!

 

Well, since you're agreeing 100% with Shadroch, please tell us (in detail) exactly why you feel that 100% of ALL COMIC RETURNS were done using the "top-ripping" methodology, and that 0% of returns exist with their cover intact.

 

I await this compelling evidence with great anticipation...

 

Aw, you`re so cute when you get yourself all worked up, Teddy Boy. It`s time to call it a day here in Asia, but I thank you for all the amusement you`ve provided all of us today. You may go now.

[Lantern]

Shadroch, you`re killing me with the TR stuff! Bull Moose Party, baby!!!

 

Man, the sure out in full force today, or you're just another shill for that needledick Shadroch. Add your two IQs together and I'd bet real money we don't reach double-figures.

 

Whatever, Ted-ster! Or maybe we should start calling you "Rough Rider", you big brute you!

 

[joe_collector]

Aw, you`re so cute when you get yourself all worked up, Teddy Boy. It`s time to call it a day here in Asia, but I thank you for all the amusement you`ve provided all of us today. You may go now.

 

It's becoming quite obvious that many people exist here only to goad me with total BS. Here's Hong Kong Louie, from that noted hub of North American comic distribution, egging me on with more blatant BS...

 

Now as for why I take the bait from such noted simpletons, that's quite puzzling to say the least.

[Illiterati-migration]

Shadroch, you`re killing me with the TR stuff! Bull Moose Party, baby!!!

 

Man, the sure out in full force today, or you're just another shill for that needledick Shadroch. Add your two IQs together and I'd bet real money we don't reach double-figures.

 

Whatever, Ted-ster! Or maybe we should start calling you "Rough Rider", you big brute you!

 

[Aman619]

hey, JC. go back and reread this thread. I just read from 2AM up just now and guess what? It was YOU who flew of the handle first with the insults! It reads like you got frustrated after nobody was buying what you were saying. YOUre out of line here, not them. They (we) were all trying topuzzle out just what the chances are of many more HG DCs coming out of the woodwork. (Something we can just not know with certainty!!) Except in YOUR mind that is...

 

caolm down. Invade Panama or something. CHAAAAAAAARRRGE!!!

[shadroch]

Comics were not returned to distributors,only the tops were. They were called strips.The very definition of warehouse find means the books were undistributed.

 

Tell me, what year is it where you are now? 1965?

 

As a matter of fact,we are discussing the 1960-1965 era,are we not? You worked in a store in which of these years?Ever wonder why there are so many nice coverless books from this era?

[nearmint]

Joe, come on man, no need to descend into name calling.

 

Eat me, needledick.

 

I used to work retail as an after-school job, and Shadroch's contention that 100% of ALL comic returns were done with "ripped tops" is hilarious, and belongs in the dark ages.

 

We used to pack them up in boxes, like any other magazine, and these books likely found their way into many a warehouse find.

 

I worked for eleven years in a bookstore that carried comics, and we returned some comic as strips, and some comics whole, depending on which distributor sent them to us. If it was a local magazine distributor that delivered and picked up the magazines, we boxed them up and sent them back whole. If the comics came UPS or RPS from a distributor back east, then we sent back only the covers.

 

Keep in mind, though, that I'm sure that the books we sent back whole to our local distributor were stripped by them before they returned them to their source for credit.

 

And if you're curious how we knew which books came from a local distributor and which came from back east, we marked the bottom of the local distributor copies with a felt pen. And I winced every time I had to do it!

[Zonker]

Again, what specific years are we talking about? My understanding, based on various Beerbohm articles, is that through the early to mid 1960s you had copies stripped and the top part mailed back for credit, whereas by the late 1960s and 1970s you had only "affadavit returns" (i.e. I promise I destroyed those books, yessir), leading inevitably to the MH2 fraud scenario.

[Aman619]

thats my understanding too. And they werent handled with kid gloves either...

 

My guess is that of course other pedigree worthy collections exist, and, should be hitting the market in the years to come. Burntboys is one example. The Northfords another. People were collecting DC comics then, And some of them were anal retentive about condition (The Thompsons for example talk about merging their collections for the best condition copy)

 

But not as many as Marvels as the excitement of the NEW Marvel Age and the chance to start with number 1 issues fueled a collector passion that overshadowed DCs. So the DCs will ultimately be "rare/scarcer/harder to find/lower in the census" (you pick th eterm you choose) than Marvels will be.

 

and again, we are talking about HIGH GRADE which even for Marvels is doable but still pretty tough.

[underthebigw]

[Keep in mind, though, that I'm sure that the books we sent back whole to our local distributor were stripped by them before they returned them to their source for credit.

 

Don't be so sure. The degree of corruption involved in magazine distribution was not negligible, especially from the late 60's on. And it was not unheard of before this. I have heard of distributors working hand-in-hand with both retailers and, later on, comic dealers, to fudge return numbers so the books could then be sold for full cover value, with the distributor getting a percentage. Obviously, this flourished once the affadavit system went into effect, but I have heard of stories of such arrangements prior to even 1965.

 

 

And then, of course, there's the matter of bookstores and used bookstores selling the strips or coverless versions for a nickel a piece after buying them from the distributor for a few pennies each. A different story, but a pretty prevalent phenomena, even in the mid-60's.

[PovertyRow]

Comics were not returned to distributors,only the tops were. They were called strips.The very definition of warehouse find means the books were undistributed.

 

Tell me, what year is it where you are now? 1965?

 

Considering the conversation is about SA DC, 1965 would certainly be more relevant than a post-SA date, wouldn't you agree?

 

Shadroch's contention that 100% of ALL comic returns were done with "ripped tops" is hilarious, and belongs in the dark ages.

 

The issue, again, is SA DC and releative scarcity as related to SA Marvel. Not wehter "100%" of ALL comic returns were done...etc. Unless you have some supporting criteria relevant to the SA. I think a safe SA baseline to use is that Warehouse Finds for the SA refelcted books that did not make it to the retail outlets.

[shadroch]

I'm certain there are still many original owner collections out there. As I'm not a fan of pedigree status,I won't comment further on that aspect,but I highly doubt there are enough of these collections that the numbers of most early SA DCs will ever get into triple digits in the census in 9.4 or better. But thats not really the point. In the marketplace today,the supply available now and the ones sold in the last five years clearly shows that these books are 1) less available than similiar Marvels and 2) fit the definition of rare and or scarce as put out by Overstreet.

Edited because I don't need to stoop to Joes level

[Aman619]

Joe has apparently quit the boards over this discussion.

[PovertyRow]

Joe has apparently quit the boards over this discussion.

\

Nah. He's just "logged off".

[nearmint]

Again, what specific years are we talking about? My understanding, based on various Beerbohm articles, is that through the early to mid 1960s you had copies stripped and the top part mailed back for credit, whereas by the late 1960s and 1970s you had only "affadavit returns" (i.e. I promise I destroyed those books, yessir), leading inevitably to the MH2 fraud scenario.

 

This was from 1987 to 1998. I worked at a Brentano's bookstore, owned by Waldenbooks. We were one of 1200 Waldenbook stores receiving and returning massive amounts of magazines and comics, and without an affadavit system. I stripped several large trash cans of magazines every week and returned covers to distributors back east(Eastern News, IPD, Curtis. etc.), and boxed up unstripped copies to be returned to our local wholesaler.

 

Whether or not that local wholesaler had an affadavite system in place with their source, I don't know.

[Zonker]

This was from 1987 to 1998. I worked at a Brentano's bookstore, owned by Waldenbooks.

 

Thanks!

 

So, this is very recent, and outside the direct-sales channel of the Local Comics Shop. Sounds like with the majority of comics now sold as non-returnable, it is a lot more practical to deal with actual returns rather than affadavits-only.

 

Or maybe the built-in incentive for fraud was finally recognized, and the system was reformed.

[shadroch]

Joe has apparently quit the boards over this discussion.

\

Nah. He's just "logged off".

 

Methinks he's in the basement,working on his "canal"

[burntboy]

still an interesting thread with lots to learn about. it's not going to be possible to "Prove" anything so we (you know who "we" is ) should just chill and add our own personal anecdotes/observations that often lend something to the topic at hand.

 

again, based on the CGC census and the GPA sales analysis, there just aren't any of these books being graded or sold. i personally believe that can be viewed as analagous to the fact that there just aren't very many. debating the semantics of rare or scarce doesn't accomplish much.

 

there all out there in HG somewhere but it will be a long, long time before enough emerge to suggest what the total may be. DC collectors hang onto 'em.....

[tth2]

Joe has apparently quit the boards over this discussion.

\

Nah. He's just "logged off".

 

Good morning folks, nice to be back and happy to see that what had been an interesting thread could resume with a more civil tone.

 

It's been interesting reading here about the "returns" process, and I'm happy to admit (now that we've got back into a more congenial discussion) that I actually know very little about the matter. But it appears most of the first-hand experience being discussed here is well past the 1965 era, which is the era we were initially focusing on. The question therefore must be whether there've been other notable warehouse finds of GA and early SA books, particularly of Marvel/Timely/Atlas or DC? Most of the known warehouse issues that I know of came from the mid- to late-1960s. The earliest Marvel issues that I can think of where there are disproportionately high numbers of high grade issues in comparison to surrounding issues, leading me to believe that perhaps they came from warehouse finds, are JIM #88 (1/63), TTA #39 (1/63) and TOS #48 (12/63). I can't think of any similar statistical anomaly amongst early DC SA books. The closest I can come is Showcase #38, which is not a key but has 1 9.8 copy, 3 9.4 copies and 6 9.2 copies, way more than the surrounding issues. I've heard conjecture that this particular issue was a warehouse copy, but also that it was featured in one of DC's early 3-packs and for some reason therefore HG copies survived in higher quantities.

 

Now that I think of it, Showcase #38 is evidence why the CGC census is actually a pretty good rough barometer (note I said rough and not precise) of what actually exists in high grade. It historically has been one of the easier issues to find in high grade, and not surprisingly a large number have been slabbed, even though it's not a key and not particularly valuable. i.e., where there is undisputedly a particularly large supply of high grade copies of an issue, it seems to make its way into the census. Another case in point: B&B #34 has always been probably the most common of the major DC SA keys, and again this is reflected in the census, as it appears in higher numbers than any other early key that I can think of. Again, I have still seen no evidence of an early SA DC book that has always been perceived to be hard to find in high grade but which has turned out to be plentiful in the census.

 

Yes, there probably are quite a few yet-to-be-discovered pedigrees and collections that will surface, and I'm not stupid enough to think the census won't continue to grow with time. But even there, if you look at the major pedigrees that have produced the bulk of the top early Marvel copies (Curator, PC, WM, Western Penn), there are very few major early SA DC keys represented in these pedigrees. Maybe these issues do exist in 9.4 and above and were salted away when the collections surfaced, but if all these reputed hardcore long-time DC collectors already had fabulous DC collections that they bought off the racks or in the mid-60s when high grade copies were supposedly easier to find because they were just a few years old, then why would they have needed to buy these copies that surfaced? And what did they do with their duplicates?

 

I think collections still exist waiting to be discovered, but I'm with Aman in wondering how many will truly turn out to be 9.4 or above. Will they really be as wonderful when viewed in the context of modern grading? Burntboy can attest to how hard it is to have 9.4s survive all these years, and his 9.4s so far have not been from the critical 1956-1962 period. Calvin Slobodian was no amateur and assembled a fabulous collection, but many of his early DCs ended up grading less than 9.4, even though they were touted as NMs and NM+s.