Jaydogrules Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 10 minutes ago, namisgr said: This is proof. That is, unless there are an equal number of comic collectors willing to seek out books with inferior page quality, and pay more for them. Straw man. Nobody said that and nobody would say that. Plus, since we have literally just discussed that "at least" four other factors are more important than the alleged "PQ" on the label (ie Marvel chipping, auction fatigue, fanned pages, timing of a movie release, etc)I honestly don't see how you are continuing this conversation with a straight face. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namisgr Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) On 2/24/2017 at 6:56 PM, namisgr said: Instead, a large number of board members have said that, all other qualities being equal, they will not only seek out examples of comics with exceptional page quality, but will pay more for them. I would, and so would many other collectors, according to their posts. I now see that Math is hard for you. The above is proof that page quality influences prices realized. When a significant number of collectors is willing to pay more for a comic with exceptional page quality, all other things being equal, then it is a simple principle of mathematics that books with exceptional page quality will realize higher prices overall. "Alleged" page quality must be your way of minimizing its importance, but it doesn't change these facts: - that plenty of collectors care about it enough to influence their buying decisions, and hence overall sale prices as a function of page quality - that despite the well-recognized wobble in numerical grading, the grade at the upper left of the label has an enormous impact on sale prices realized, even if the very same comic used to reside in a different slab with a lower numerical grade in the corner. - that experienced graders can predict the page quality designation on their GA, SA, and BA submissions to about the same degree that they can the numerical grade designation. Edited February 27, 2017 by namisgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, namisgr said: I now see that Math is hard for you. The above is proof that page quality influences prices realized. When a significant number of collectors is willing to pay more for a comic with exceptional page quality, all other things being equal, then it is a simple principle of mathematics that books with exceptional page quality will realize higher prices overall. "Alleged" page quality must be your way of minimizing its importance, but it doesn't change these facts: - that plenty of collectors care about it enough to influence their buying decisions, and hence overall sale prices - that despite the well-recognized wobble in numerical grading, the grade at the upper left of the label has an enormous impact on sale prices realized, even if the very same comic used to reside in a different slab with a lower numerical grade in the corner. - that experienced graders can predetermine the page quality designation on their submissions to about the same degree that they can the numerical grade designation. Problem is, you are misconstruing many of what your opinions are as "facts". Your idea of what constitutes "proof" is in reality nothing more than a virtually UNPROVABLE hypothesis, since, as we have already discussed, there are rarely, if ever, "all things being equal" about two vintage books being sold, including, apparently, the timing of movie releases and the time of year a book is being auctioned (things that actually have NOTHING to do what the physical conditions or what their respective labels say of the books themselves). Therefore it would be practically IMPOSSIBLE to create the controlled environment, and in a public venue, that would be required to even attempt to prove this hypothesis once, let alone over and over again in perpetuity to even establish a baseline to begin your point of debate. All we have, on either side of the point, are the occasional data points (that clearly do not favour your perspective based on these auction results, at least), which means we have, at best, ANECDOTAL evidence to rely on either way. And that is sure a heck of a long way from the absolute terms and authority that you are attempting to use (again, bad timing my man) to speak under the authority of "fact". Whether or not you recognize it, your credibility on this issue is SEVERELY undermined by the fact that, OMG! here we have not one but TWO examples of books with "white pages!!!" on the label, taking a big dump in the same public auction where plenty of other books set all time sales record highs (severely impacting the "auction fatigue" and "auction time of year" excuse). Realizing that, you and the usual suspects have (as you always do when this comes up again and again and again), opted to take the low road and make thinly disguised low blows in your non-arguments as you flail hopelessly about attempting to explain, rationalize, minimize, and negotiate why, once again, your closely cherished OPINIONS have been severely undermined (yet again) by the REALITIES of the market. Made even worse by the fact that you seem unable (or unwilling) to acknowledge the subtleties of some of my points, as you fling your one-noted sledge hammer down as though you were Thor wielding the hammer of truth-points made to look that much more impotent given the time and place that you are attempting to make them, that frankly has more of a "what I like and collect rules, and what you like and collect sucks" kind of stink to it to be perfectly honest with you. Most of this, of course, would be forgivable if your ego would allow you, even for one moment, to couch your statements as the OPINIONS that they are (even if shared by many) instead of the "facts" that you obviously wish them to be. Rather than derailing this thread any further I will leave you with my one and only point on the matter since Day One: That whatever price differences you believe occur based on the so-called "PQ" on the label alone is simply uquantifiable (ie, impossible to be proven) and/or inconsistent ("if" it happens, you can't prove that it has always happened), rendering it nothing but mere anecdote, and ultimately, meaningless. -J. Edited February 27, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namisgr Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) Math shouldn't be hard, and it isn't an opinion. I pay more for comics with white page quality, all other features being equal. Others have posted on the boards that they will, too. Mathematics dictates, then, that these comics will on average sell for more than their counterparts with lesser page quality. It should go without saying that there's an even larger segment of collectors that, all other things being equal, will when a choice is available and prices are the same, buy the copy with the best page quality. It should also go without saying, then, that the unchosen copies with lesser page quality will sit longer in dealer stock, and are more likely to need to be discounted to be moved. Edited February 27, 2017 by namisgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, namisgr said: Math shouldn't be hard, and it isn't an opinion. I pay more for comics with white page quality, all other features being equal. Others have posted on the boards that they will, too. Mathematics dictates, then, that these comics will on average sell for more than their counterparts with lesser page quality. Ahem. Actually that is not "math" and is still just anecdote based on your opinion and personal preferences. For as we have seen, when that particular collecting niche who may (or may not) pay "more" (how much "more", who knows? some murky, ill-defined amount) fail to show up to an auction, even books with alleged "white pages" on the label will sell for well BELOW average, and guess what!, that negates whatever imaginary "premium" that you want to believe in, even on the now-watered-down "averages" that you are now attempting to hang your hat on (although I will grant you that that is a step in the right direction from the absolute terms you were trying to speak in before). -J. Edited February 27, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namisgr Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) Since when have I, or any other board poster, described buying books with exceptional page quality in 'absolute terms'? You're making it up as you go here, and your misrepresentation isn't appreciated. And yes, it's math as described, and it's fact and not opinion. Unless there's an equal number of collectors willing to pay more for books with inferior page quality as there are for books with exceptional page quality, a tongue in cheek reference I made already that went over your head the first time, exceptional page quality will bring higher average sale prices. Edited February 27, 2017 by namisgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, namisgr said: Since when have I, or any other board poster, described buying books with exceptional page quality in 'absolute terms'? You're making it up as you go here, and your misrepresentation isn't appreciated. You are still making imopossible to prove assumptions and stating your opinions as "facts". You don't need anyone to show up to "pay more" in either scenario (again, how much "more", who knows). These two results we have before us right now sold for well BELOW the averages, irrespective of the so-called "PQ" on the label. These books, these supposedly wonderful, highly desired by everybody"white page" on the label books, were in fact met by the market with a collective shrug. Hence, even if a book with "white pages" on the label "appears" to sell for above average at some unforeseen later date (and it is obviously for that reason and for that reason alone) the NUMEROUS below average results like these even everything out again to the point of meaninglessness. Every time miscontrue your opinions as "facts", or, worse yet, "math", you are effectively speaking in absolute terms. If I am reading more hyperbole into your statements than are intended, I apologize. Let's just agree to disagree, enjoy all of these funny books that we have, warts and all, and call it a night. -J. Edited February 27, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageComics Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 18 hours ago, namisgr said: On 2017-02-24 at 6:56 PM, namisgr said: Instead, a large number of board members have said that, all other qualities being equal, they will not only seek out examples of comics with exceptional page quality, but will pay more for them. I would, and so would many other collectors, according to their posts. This is proof. That is, unless there are an equal number of comic collectors willing to seek out books with inferior page quality, and pay more for them. I wouldn't bother. I just take a moment to point out how ridiculous his arguements are for the sake of noobs who may not have seen the discussion before and then back away. After 40 years of collecting (and probably a decade ore more for you from what I understand), for someone to say that people don't pay a premium for superior quality anything (PQ, QP, miscuts, chipping - WHATEVER) is just a walk away moment for me at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, VintageComics said: I wouldn't bother. I just take a moment to point out how ridiculous his arguements are for the sake of noobs who may not have seen the discussion before and then back away. After 40 years of collecting (and probably a decade ore more for you from what I understand),for someone to say that people don't pay a premium for superior quality anything (PQ, QP, miscuts, chipping - WHATEVER) is just a walk away moment for me at this point. Great, I'm glad you got another opportunity to tell everybody how long you've been dealing with funny books. Bully for you. But your specific opinion about what "people" paying a "premium" for has now degenerated from being about the "PQ" on the label, into a completely generic statement about collectors paying for whatever quality (or qualities) they might uniquely prefer in particular in a book. Essentially agreeing that the "PQ" on the label is in fact NOT the sole end-all, be-all automatic "premium-fetcher" that you implied it was earlier (again, bad time to be making such a blanket statement anyway given the results of this auction). Thus making your original point essentially moot (and effectively proving mine). Yes, it does look like a good time for you to walk away, professor. -J. Edited February 27, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namisgr Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) That was fast. What happened to agreeing to disagree? Or finally recognizing the infallibility of the math? Or beating your dead horse? Edited February 27, 2017 by namisgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, namisgr said: That was fast. What happened to agreeing to disagree? You and I are cool. Unfortunately, VintageComics had to come in after the fact and do his usual pot-stirring thing with the pro forma passive-aggressive personal swipes. Differences in opinion are fine, and debates can be lively and entertaining, and even a little sarcasm can be humourous at times, but the constant condescending, holier than thou "I know better than you" shtick can be too much sometimes. -J. Edited February 27, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timeless icons Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) I prefer off white to white or white pages as well and I don't mind paying a bit more for them. The price difference and overall structure of the book is also taken into account but assuming that both books are structurally sound and one has off white while the other has white, I'd more than likely opt to pay a bit more for the white label. Edited February 27, 2017 by Timeless icons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namisgr Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 10 minutes ago, Timeless icons said: I prefer off white to white or white pages as well and I don't mind paying a bit more for them. The price difference and overall structure of the book is also taken into account but assuming that both books are structurally sound and one has off white while the other has white, I'd more than likely opt to pay a bit more for the white label. +1 Not everybody would, but the fact that some collectors would, while at the same time no collectors would pay more for a comic with inferior page quality, is the simple mathematics proving that books with exceptional page quality will command higher average sale prices than those without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, namisgr said: +1 Not everybody would, but the fact that some collectors would, while at the same time no collectors would pay more for a comic with inferior page quality, is the simple mathematics proving that books with exceptional page quality will command higher average sale prices than those without. ....and what happens to your "averages" when books with "white pages" on the label sell for well BELOW the average of the other books with "inferior page quality" on the label (as what happened in this auction)? -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namisgr Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: ....and what happens to your "averages" when books with "white pages" on the label sell for well BELOW the average of the other books with "inferior page quality" on the label (as what happened in this auction)? -J. Nothing. Comic book sale prices have variance, but it doesn't change the law of averages in the face of a subset of collectors willing to pay more for exceptional page quality. You still don't get the mathematics. Do you play poker? Because I'd like to play at a live table with you sometime. Edited February 27, 2017 by namisgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, namisgr said: Nothing. Comic book sale prices have variance, but it doesn't change the law of averages in the face of a subset of collectors willing to pay more for exceptional page quality. You still don't get the mathematics. Do you play poker? Because I'd like to play at a live table with you sometime. You would easily win since I have more tells than Bobcat Goldwaith on coke. And yes I completely and totally understand what you're saying. I simply disagree with your interpretation of the data and I find the overall variances to be both too numerous and too broad to draw any real, valid, or reliable conclusions. And since anecdotal evidence can be produced to support either position, it's all just a wash. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageComics Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said: You and I are cool. Unfortunately, VintageComics had to come in after the fact and do his usual pot-stirring thing with the pro forma passive-aggressive personal swipes. Differences in opinion are fine, and debates can be lively and entertaining, and even a little sarcasm can be humourous at times, but the constant condescending, holier than thou "I know better than you" shtick can be too much sometimes. -J. The 'personal swipes' are a correction to show that you attempt to rewrite history and say that people have said things they didn't. Both a no-no because...well...you are NEVER wrong. Initially, when the discussion first started years ago people were saying that they would pay more for white pages. I agree that this alone is anecdotal and could go either way. But ultimately, the discussion evolved (as all discussions do) and all anyone - everyone really, except for you has really has been saying is that all other things being equal, people will choose a book with better quality than inferior quality. And that includes page quality. And the direct correlation is that better quality books sell for more money than lesser quality books, regardless of what that quality is. I'm happy to agree to disagree but you reframed the discussion to move the goal posts, which is why I called you out on it. And now I will drop out of this specific conversation out of respect for everyone reading this thread. And agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Knight Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 I think we need people who will stand up and buy books with lower PQ rather than paying premiums for white paged copies. It's one less person to be bidding up those kinds of books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entalmighty1 Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 I'd be much more inclined to spend the extra dough for white pages if it wasn't such a questionable process in grading. We've all seen resubmitted books get substantial PQ jumps before. If grader #1 says the pages are white, then it's entirely possible that grader #3 says they're C/OW. Show me some consistency in PQ grading, and I'll consider attaching a premium to white pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namisgr Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 1 hour ago, entalmighty1 said: I'd be much more inclined to spend the extra dough for white pages if it wasn't such a questionable process in grading. We've all seen resubmitted books get substantial PQ jumps before. If grader #1 says the pages are white, then it's entirely possible that grader #3 says they're C/OW. Show me some consistency in PQ grading, and I'll consider attaching a premium to white pages. What makes you think there's more wobble in page quality grading than in structural grading? There's two reasons why I think there's similar variability. First, I always make predictions on page quality and numerical grade on all of my CGC submissions. Based on this experience, I'm roughly equally good (equally bad?) at pegging the two. Second, years ago before he joined CGC, Matt Nelson ran a grading contest at 3 or 4 summer comic shows. Each participant was given the same 20 books spanning the golden, silver, and bronze ages, and predicted the page quality and numerical grades. Then the comics were submitted to CGC and the results tabulated later. Most people were roughly as good guessing page quality as numerical grade. As for me, I was about 65% correct on each. I really don't understand why some people use the wobble in page quality grading to dismiss it out of hand, yet make buying decisions worth hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars based on a structural numerical grade that has just as much wobble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
