Pre- Hero Marvels!!!! 16 16

[bc]

Follow Up - Part 3

Some more raw data for consideration...

On average, the typical PHM book consisted of 6 jobs.

There were about 160 PHM titles that did not consist of reprints during the period Jan '58 to July '63.

That's a total of about 960 jobs for PHM titles during the period Jan '58 to July '63.

Stan signed 97 of them; about 10%.

And half of those (49 of 97) was an 8 issue series (Amazing Adult Fantasy) that included 8 content pages (shown in Part 1) as well as a 1 page "coming attractions" job in AAF 10.

-bc

 

[bc]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:31 PM, Mucheee1 said:

Based on the information, it seems that when Stan Lee did anything creative-wise he would certainly take credit for it, with his name plastered somewhere on the story art. Leads me to believe that if his name wasn’t on it somewhere, he really had nothing to do with the story. I noticed the Atlas Tales database attributes a story from TTA 21 to Lee, but all I see is Ditko’s signature. It does say at the bottom of the last page that if you like these stories, you can write to Stan Lee and tell him.

I wonder if Stan was figuring out that these type stories by Jack and Steve were popular, discovered they were popular by people writing in and telling him, and then he starting getting involved and getting credit.

That's the $64,000 question.

Gonna see if I can find actual sales data for the PHM titles, but all other second-hand sources say that sales were flat or declining during that period for that genre.

-bc

[bc]

Ha!

Just noticed that my entire sig line - Amazing Adventures 1-6 all have "Stan Lee story" listed in the label notes!

-bc

[bc]

Follow Up - Part 4

Raw Data

Can't seem to get the spreadsheet to paste in here correctly, so here's the screenshots of what Atlas Tales shows for Stan signed PHM work:

-bc

[Prince Namor]

That is some Incredible work! Bravo!

Let me add…

Stan only had specific artists he would work with and they were generally ones that he could take writing credit for.

He already had a reputation before the Silver Age… I can show you some Charles Biro and Harvey Kurtzman quotes…

I think Stan wormed his way into Ditko under the idea he could get him more work and most likely made promises to Kirby that they could try superheroes as long as they were under HIS control, finally getting Kirby to agree to a collaboration agreement… that of course included bonus’ if the books did well, etc. 

Both Ditko and Kirby felt betrayed by Stan when they left and it makes sense because both were prolific creators on their own when they came to Marvel and Stan was only prolific at dumb blonde books. He roped them in with promises and never delivered, eventually leaving, and allowing him to gain control. 
 

Pretty sad. 

[Jasonmorris1000000]

Maybe the Terrible Totem from June 1961 gave Stan the itch to do more monsters?  I also agree that Stan shouldn’t be given story credits on a CGC label since there is dispute.  By the way, I just bought this issue.  It should arrive on Saturday.  Hopefully I didn’t jinx the eBay purchase 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Jasonmorris1000000

[bc]

Follow Up - Part 5

Thanks to a couple of pints and many searches in the Registry, ebay & HA.com, I reviewed the entire CGC graded PHM catalog of books (trying to focus on the most recent 2 slab versions for data consistency). The label notes are very different from the original slab version, the older gen slabs had much less information in the label notes.

Goal was to analyze how many issues Stan signed and was given credit on the CGC label compared to number of issues that CGC attributes to Stan that he did not sign.

Data set: There are total of 164 books in the PHM catalog which matches the current CGC Registry criteria which our little club sort of helped define.

Based on Stan's signed job count (from Part 4), he contributed to 56 different PHM issues. About 34% of the 164 PHM issues.

CGC credits Stan on 87 PHM issues. About 53% of the 164 PHM issues.

That's a 31 issue difference. About 19% more.

 

The interesting part is that CGC does NOT credit Stan on the label notes when he actually signed the job on four books (JIM79, ST97, ST98, TOS24).

 

Here's a breakdown by title:

 

I'm not going to even try and post the 164 rows of raw data. Message me if you want it.

-bc

[bc]

@Mucheee1 pondered "I wonder if Stan was figuring out that these type stories by Jack and Steve were popular, discovered they were popular by people writing in and telling him, and then he starting getting involved and getting credit."

Follow Up - Part 6

Marvel vs DC Sales Data from 1950 to 1987

https://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/comic_sales.html

Some Notes on the Marvel (Atlas) numbers:

• Atlas Implosion was early 1957
• Mid 1957 - Signed a deal with Independent News to publish 8 titles per month which was gradually amended to increase the number of titles per month over the next decade 
• Nov 1961 - FF1 comes out
• Mid 1962 - IH1, AF15 arrive
• 1963 - More heroes appear
• It took a decade to get back to pre-Implosion sales levels (1956 to 1966) 

Looking at the raw data from this graph, Marvel Total Copies Sold for the years 1957 thru 1963 are:

The drop from '57 to '58 is due to the Atlas Implosion.

'58 and '59 are basically flat years. We see a slight bump in 1960 and a bigger increase in 1961 with continued acceleration from there when the superheroes take over.

Have some individual title numbers for these years in the next part.

-bc

[bc]

Follow Up - Part 7

US Postal Data for Individual Titles

https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales/postaldata/1960.html

1960 was the first year that the U.S. Postal Service required that publishers actually include circulation information in the Statements of Ownership that appeared in their comic books. At this point, only the print run and paid circulations were reported by all; some also included subscription sales.

Uncle Scrooge and Walt Disney's Comics & Stories both topped 1 million copies, and it was the last time to date that any Statement of Ownership for any title (apart from Mad, a magazine) would top that figure. Star Wars #1 in 1977 would be the next comic book to exceed 1 million copies, although that was across multiple printings. While several issues in the early 1990s would have sales exceeding 1 million copies, none of the year-long averages for those series topped that figure.

Note that DC rounded all figures to the nearest thousand, whereas other publishers went into greater detail. Such variation among publishers was common.

Data from 1960 - Let's see where a Marvel title shows up:

(not yet, keep going...)

(almost there, keep scrollin')

*** BIG NOTE: At this point, Atlas/Marvel was still limited by the Independent News deal to publishing only 8 books per month. Therefore, these titles appeared bi-monthly compared to their contemporaries. However, this data is "per issue" and NOT "per month" ***

 

First Marvel title in the Top 50 list for 1960 is TTA at #43 selling an average of 163,156 books per issue, followed by TOS at #45. Both of these titles were published bi-monthly until late in 1960.

Notice that the legacy titles Strange Tales and Journey into Mystery don't crack the top 50, TTA & TOS are the "new" guys on the block. JIM & ST don't hit the Top 50 until 1962!

 

To keep the length of this post reasonable, I summarized the other top 50 charts for the PHM titles:

   

   

Even though there is no data for ST & JIM in '60 & '61, the charts for TTA & TOS likely are indicative of their performance as well.

 

As usual, I'll show my raw data:

-bc

[bc]

How 'bout some June books!

-bc

[Rosland]

bc, thank you for the informative posts. Great reading!

[bc]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:15 PM, Rosland said:

bc, thank you for the informative posts. Great reading!

You're Welcome!

And Thank You for the Registry Set pics! 

Also got to give a shout out to @Sweet Lou 14  @mysterio for their registry set details!

-bc

[Jasonmorris1000000]

[Prince Namor]

Some great work bc! Thank you!

Edited June 11, 2022 by Prince Namor

[bc]

On 6/10/2022 at 9:28 PM, Prince Namor said:

Some great work bc! Thank you!

All I'm really trying to do is provide sourced data...still trying to process it all.

Stan first started signing PHM work in books with a cover date of Oct 1961. The earliest Job Code is V-309 for a story called "The Anatomy Of A Nightmare!" which is just a 5 page story stuffed into TOS22

Likely that hit the stands in late July, early August 1961 (which we have date stamps on ST89 for that same period)

Guestimate that it took a month from Editorial approval to production/printing & distribution; meaning that the approved jobs had to be done in June 1961.

Let's say that it took a month from when the jobs where assigned to their completion (and payment to the artist/writer/inker - man, wish I could find those receipts).

Puts us in the April-May 1961 timeframe when Stan started signing PHM jobs.

Back to @Mucheee1 and now my question - What factor prompted Stan Lee to take an interest and begin actively contributing (signing) to the PHM titles in early 1961 after really having nothing to do with any Atlas fantasy/sci-fi/horror before that (I think back to 1953 or 1954)?

It wasn't that the popularity/sales were increasing. There is a clear decrease in average issue sales for the "Big 4" PHM titles from '61 to '62 (as shown in Part 7).

-bc

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by bc
typo

[bc]

    Been thinking about this as I was putzing around on my tractor this weekend.

 

Atlas changed to the "MC" Marvel Comics with JIM 69 (and Patsy Walker #95) - both with on-sale dates around 4/6/61.

That is a few months before Stan starting signing his work in the PHM titles. I am going to have to assume that Stan was involved on the PHM jobs he signed (since he was signing other jobs during this period).

 

What if the sudden reason Stan started getting involved in the PHM books is simply the biggest motivator in history - money?

His new contract with Marvel Comics may have stipulated that he be involved with XX stories per month (maybe Goodman threw in a small bonus clause if he did more). Or maybe the new contract slightly increased the pay rate per job?  Or linked his pay to the actual sales data for the titles? 

 

Granted there may be other factors, but the monetary motivational factor is pretty engrained in the business world and seems to be a fairly logical explanation based on the data so far.

-bc

 

[KirbyJack]

Maybe he was simply trying to pad his resume for a new job?
 

But probably money.

[bc]

On 6/12/2022 at 5:21 PM, KirbyJack said:

Maybe he was simply trying to pad his resume for a new job?
 

But probably money.

Padding the resume is a pretty plausible explanation as well. Stan was actively shopping gigs during the post Implosion period:

From http://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot.com/2018/12/stan-lee-1922-2018-timely-years.html 

"I've now covered every single thing Stan Lee wrote during his time in the Timely and Atlas periods of Martin Goodman's comic book line. One further mention should be that he also spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get out of the industry completely. My friend Ger Apeldoorn wrote a fantastically detailed article in the 150th issue of Alter Ego magazine, showcasing all of Stan's attempts at comic strip syndication, self-publishing, etc., during the years 1956-1962. The most successful was Mrs. Lyons' Cubs, with Joe Maneely. I'll touch upon that in a short while. One attempt, Golfer's Anonymous, has a page Stan Goldberg told me Jack Kirby worked on. The year was 1961."
- Dr. Michael J. Vassallo

-bc

 

[Jasonmorris1000000]

I had no idea @Jayman collected Kirby and Ditko monsters too.  What else ya got? 

On 6/13/2022 at 4:29 PM, Jayman said:

 

[Jasonmorris1000000]

I’m not sure if I should congratulate you or offer you my condolences.  That’s a beautiful copy 

On 6/13/2022 at 1:21 PM, pickycollector said:

Strange Tales #89 VF: $12,000

Book looks much better than assigned grade with nice corners, gorgeous spine and awesome colors and gloss. It is also extremely well centered as you can see the man below in his totality (full left foot).

I have to downgrade it to a VF 8.0 because of light curves along the spine probably due to storage and that do not break any color so an easy press for those of you who can stand that practice. Also because there is some light tanning along inside covers margins and on back cover (see scans). Inside pages are off-white. Note that there are no inside pages poking through the right edge as it is now so common to see today with pressed books (the costanza effect)....

Feel free to compare this copy with any other copy in 7.0,7.5,8.0 or even 8.5 that sold in the past years or may be currently available for sale. I highly doubt that you will find a better looking copy