Why do people think New Mutants #98 had a "high print run"...? 0

[vaillant]

So, basically, circulation wise new mutants was crushing marvel mainstays like captain america, thor, daredevil and iron man. I wouldn't consider those "dregs", but whatever.

 

Did you actually read those "mainstays" books in 1990 and 91? Utter garbage. They were only continuing through sheer momentum, not because they were good or anything. Marvel just didn't want to pull the plug on the different members of the Avengers solo books.

 

From what I recall, Captain America kept having decently good stories up to some point, although Ron Lim artwork was not so good when he replaced Kieron Dwyer.

 

Surely most of the mediocrity of those titles wasn’t worse than what Liefeld, Portacio & al. were going to do in short, together with Claremont, on the X-Men related titles.

[500Club]

(Don't take my chastising too seriously, Kimik. I'm easily excited.)

 

Chastise him relentlessly.

 

My recollections are the same as yours. The book was occasionally slightly broken out above other run books, but really went nowhere until 2007 or so. I was buying them at $5 per when I could find them from 1992-2005, but had to sit on them for up to 15 years to realize their value.

[seanfingh]

New Mutants and Excalibur were the ultra-ginger stepchildren of the mutant tableau. No one cared about either of them until Liefeld. No one ever cared about Excalibur.

 

And this shows how little sales have often to do with quality.

 

You could always see that the characters in Excalibur had feet, I'll say that for it.

[vaillant]

New Mutants and Excalibur were the ultra-ginger stepchildren of the mutant tableau. No one cared about either of them until Liefeld. No one ever cared about Excalibur.

 

And this shows how little sales have often to do with quality.

 

You could always see that the characters in Excalibur had feet, I'll say that for it.

 

I think we need to destroy more copies of NM #98, regardless of the print run.

[vaillant]

P.S. Have you ever read Captain Britain v2 #13-14? That‘s where all the story starts.

I think they have been reprinted in the USA in the X-Men Archives title. That’s pretty much quality work, compared to the aforementioned chit.

[slym2none]

(Don't take my chastising too seriously, Kimik. I'm easily excited.)

 

 

Your tentpole is showing.

 

 

 

-slym

[the blob]

I was saying that the book was not worthless for 18 years as you asserted (see your quote above) - it was a $5-$10 book locally when the first Deadpool mini came out and a $10-20 book when the Deadpool regular series came out. This is why I was actively buying them as often as they came up at $5 or less in the early to mid-90s - for as long as I have been selling at local shows (1997) and online (1999), it has been a $10+ book. Not quite worthless.......

------------------

 

I dunno about $5-$10 or whatever, but yes, this is my recollection too, it wasn't a worthless drek book of its era found in the 25 cent - $1 box with much frequency. otherwise from 1998 - 2005 I would have picked up copies as I was looking for them (I would actually buy the liefield NM books...I liked the covers and liked his Hawk & Dove stuff from earlier)...and let's be serious, at this time almost anything produced from 1990-1995 was considered worthless drek.

 

Case in point, the 2005 OPG, at page 128 in the CGC/Copper age section shows a NM 98 in 9.8 selling for $175 ($53 less than a 9.8 #87, but more than a 9.8 secret wars 8)...so spin that however you want, the book had picked up plenty of steam by 2005. I don't have the 2002-2004 guides handy here at work, but I wonder if there is anything similar? (And perhaps GPA has that info?).

 

Of course, when the book started to pick up again is irrelevant to the initial hypothesis.

[seanfingh]

P.S. Have you ever read Captain Britain v2 #13-14? That‘s where all the story starts.

I think they have been reprinted in the USA in the X-Men Archives title. That’s pretty much quality work, compared to the aforementioned chit.

 

I have not. I stopped reading Uncanny soon after the Siege Perilous challenged my ability to keep my gorge down. I never really read X-Men. I speced some mutant books when the artists got, but never read them.

 

I read New X-Men for a couple of years when Grant Morrison took over and I really enjoyed Astonishing for the first 25 or so issues.

 

For me, the glory era of X-Men was between GS1 and UXM121. That is the essence of comic books and my childhood connection to them.

[the blob]

I was buying them at $5 per when I could find them from 1992-2005, but had to sit on them for up to 15 years to realize their value.

-----------

 

$5 for a book from that era was huge money where 99.9% of everything was dollar (or less) box fodder. I would not have been buying them for $5 a pop!

[Bosco685]

Now I have to ask for data to follow the enlightened path of "factual accuracy".

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit there. In fact, Jon Warren, the editor of the Update at the time, did a better job of keeping track of things in this time period...when the Update went from once a year to every two months to every month...than at any other time during Overstreet's entire history, before or since.

 

So if something is a fact, it has to have data to back it up. Right? Otherwise, you are just making a statement based on your personal opinion.

 

1) What metrics validate "just about as accurate as it ever could possibly be" when judging a market tracking source?

 

2) Where are such metrics being tracked to validate "factual accuracy"?

 

3) Were there focus groups or survey results from major store owners where the results proved Jon Warren's period was the most accurate for the techniques available at the time?

 

It's important, as if you are stating what he wrote was the most up-to-date and accurate details for the time (if that is what you are implying), we need to validate the source.

[Bosco685]

My recollections are the same as yours. The book was occasionally slightly broken out above other run books, but really went nowhere until 2007 or so. I was buying them at $5 per when I could find them from 1992-2005, but had to sit on them for up to 15 years to realize their value.

 

And there is the important point being missed. Though New Mutants #98 was not a key book at the time, it was clearly tied to a short run that had quickly caught on with the market. People were buying these up where they could because otherwise they were going to miss out on the next big thing.

 

Unfortunately, that "thing" died off and became an industry running joke about little feet and accessory pouches until Deadpool became hot.

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

It just got real up in this piece.

[vaillant]

P.S. Have you ever read Captain Britain v2 #13-14? That‘s where all the story starts.

I think they have been reprinted in the USA in the X-Men Archives title. That’s pretty much quality work, compared to the aforementioned chit.

 

I have not. I stopped reading Uncanny soon after the Siege Perilous challenged my ability to keep my gorge down. I never really read X-Men. I speced some mutant books when the artists got, but never read them.

 

For me, the glory era of X-Men was between GS1 and UXM121. That is the essence of comic books and my childhood connection to them.

 

I don’t recall what "Siege Perilous" is but I tend to agree, as I never found convincing the whole idea behind the "Dark Phoenix" storyline, as much as it has been cherished during the years, while I love the early issues (I have read Uncanny from GS1 and about #112 in italian at the time).

But I appreciate the mid-1980s, especially how the titles often perfectly worked as a whole, also thanks to the talent of Louise Simonson (some Power Pack and New Mutants issues are little gems)

I think you would enjoy the Captain Britain, also the first run (the second was entirely written by Davis with Delano, the first was written by Moore and unsure if it had a proper US edition: I looked for the UK original mags).

 

This is the last issue of volume 2, which preceeds New Mutants Annual #2 and Excalibur:

[seanfingh]

 

Yeah if it was from '86, I am sure I would enjoy it.

[vaillant]

Yeah if it was from '86, I am sure I would enjoy it.

 

On the inside back cover of this issue it’s announced the Captain Britain US title (which never happened and turned out as NM Annual #2 and Excalibur) The earlier Moore stories date back to the early 1980s. Very different from most of the US stories, but pretty much attuned to Marvel.

I decided I had to read them when I saw this cover, which now must be one of my favorites cover ever.

 

 

BTW, most of the content of "Age of Ultron" has considerable similarities with this storyline – the Fury’s (the disturbing villain on the cover, half animal, half machinery) is programmed to erase every life form across dimensions.

[Bosco685]

Greg Buls. Haven't heard that name in a long while.

 

"Current issues: Marvel is once again on the rampage. Ghost Rider continues to literally blow out, as does the new Spiderman book, and finally the Mutant titles. By the end of this year, Mutants will once again rule, led by X-Men and Cable and the rest of the New Mutants. With the arrival of Jim Lee on the X-Men, and Cable and Rob Liefeld on the New Mutants, there should be no stopping these titles. Recent books to watch out for include NM 86, 87, 93 and 94, and X-Men #248 (first Jim Lee X-Men) 256, 257, 258, 268, and 270. By the time this price guide hits the stands, the mutants should be thoroughly engulfed in the X-Tinction Agenda, which should sell phenomenally well and should begin the consolidation of the mutant titles. Of the above books, the two I believe have the most potential (emphasis added) are NM 87 (1st Cable) and X-Men 248. The only thing that should keep 248 from reaching Spiderman 298 status is the greater circulation of the X-Men title."

 

That is the sole and only reference to New Mutants #87 in the entire report, from the middle of September, 1990.

 

By September, 1990, New Mutants #87 was starting to be mentioned as a potential hot property, along with Cable and Liefeld being called out by name. Weren't you saying before these books weren't really getting attention until 1991?

 

Chuck Rozanski claims he was one of the early callers on The Crow being a hot property. Was he wrong? No. Did the books pick up steam? Most definitely.

 

Though the source was Greg, it doesn't take away from what was reality. Cable and Liefeld had struck a nerve with the comic market.

[Bosco685]

Wow!

 

Looking up information about Louise Simonson and Rob Liefeld, there is definitely no love lost.

 

However, Cougar never appeared in the New Mutants, although a cover for New Mutants #87 featuring Cougar was made. Instead New Mutants #87 from 1990 came to feature the first appearance of Cable. “(Editor) Bob (Harras) wanted the New Mutants to have an adult leader, because Professor X was gone,” Louise Simonson recalled in Comics Creators On X-Men. “I had thought that the New Mutants would be perfectly fine without an adult around, but Bob wanted one.”

 

“I came up with the character and what his motivation was. (Artist) Rob (Liefeld) came up with the character design. Actually, his original character design was supposed to be for Stryfe, but Bob and I thought it would be better for Cable. I thought about calling him Commander X at one point, but Rob wanted to call the guy Cable and I said, “You know what? Sure, Cable is a fine name.” Anything to get Rob interested in the stories.”

 

“It took me about six months to figure out that Rob really wasn’t interested in the stories at all. He just wanted to do what he wanted to do, which was cool drawings of people posing in their costumes that would then sell for lots of money.”

[vaillant]

Wow!

 

Looking up information about Louise Simonson and Rob Liefeld, there is definitely no love lost.

 

However, Cougar never appeared in the New Mutants, although a cover for New Mutants #87 featuring Cougar was made. Instead New Mutants #87 from 1990 came to feature the first appearance of Cable. “(Editor) Bob (Harras) wanted the New Mutants to have an adult leader, because Professor X was gone,” Louise Simonson recalled in Comics Creators On X-Men. “I had thought that the New Mutants would be perfectly fine without an adult around, but Bob wanted one.”

 

“I came up with the character and what his motivation was. (Artist) Rob (Liefeld) came up with the character design. Actually, his original character design was supposed to be for Stryfe, but Bob and I thought it would be better for Cable. I thought about calling him Commander X at one point, but Rob wanted to call the guy Cable and I said, “You know what? Sure, Cable is a fine name.” Anything to get Rob interested in the stories.”

 

“It took me about six months to figure out that Rob really wasn’t interested in the stories at all. He just wanted to do what he wanted to do, which was cool drawings of people posing in their costumes that would then sell for lots of money.”

 

 

You know that I am going to love you for this post, right?

 

Ultimately, everthing becomes generally understandable as the facts are more better known.

[vaillant]

“Rob (Liefeld) was unhappy with the way the stories were going and wanted someone else to write them,” Louise Simonson recalled in Wizard: X-Men Turn Thirty. “I think that at that point anyone who looked like they could produce lots of instant cash for Marvel was likened to a god, and Rob Liefeld looked like he could do just that.”

 

“Although I wasn’t fired, I think I was being shoved out the door with both hands by (editor) Bob Harras,” Louise Simonson recalled in Wizard: X-Men Turn Thirty. “Bob was only doing what he had to do, I expect, which was make Rob Liefeld happy. (…) My problems were not so much with Liefeld, because all freelancers are greedy and like to grab what they can, and that’s fine. I was an editor for a long time, and I know how that works.”

 

“My problems were really with the editor, who was not handling things well at all. It’s up to an editor to choose the people who will work on any given project, and to let them know when their services are no longer needed. I think that Bob was not willing to make those decisions. What he did to me, to Chris Claremont, to Peter David, and to Jo Duffy, was to nickel-and-dime us to death. He would change plots and blame it on the artists. He would change dialogue, and then say, “I’m sorry, but I tried to call you and you weren’t home” or “I’ll be sure and tell you the next time.” He would change some of the dialogue, but not other parts, so the things people said wouldn’t make sense. It was his way of letting you know he was wishing you’d go away. Maybe it was time to say good-bye to mutants anyway.”

 

 

Now everything makes sense on why I was so disgusted by what I was reading/seeing but was unable to understand at the time.

 

I would really love to contact Louise Simonson – thanks Bosco! (thumbs u

[Bosco685]

I would really love to contact Louise Simonson – thanks Bosco! (thumbs u

 

Bets on who gets Louise Simonson to sign a New Mutants #87 "To Commander X's biggest fan..."