Why do people think New Mutants #98 had a "high print run"...? 0

[joecgcmaniac]

So, basically, circulation wise new mutants was crushing marvel mainstays like captain america, thor, daredevil and iron man. I wouldn't consider those "dregs", but whatever.

 

Did you actually read those "mainstays" books in 1990 and 91? Utter garbage. They were only continuing through sheer momentum, not because they were good or anything. Marvel just didn't want to pull the plug on the different members of the Avengers solo books.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

So, basically, circulation wise new mutants was crushing marvel mainstays like captain america, thor, daredevil and iron man. I wouldn't consider those "dregs", but whatever.

 

Did you actually read those "mainstays" books in 1990 and 91? Utter garbage. They were only continuing through sheer momentum, not because they were good or anything. Marvel just didn't want to pull the plug on the different members of the Avengers solo books.

 

 

Yeesh. Indeed, they were hideous.

 

[joecgcmaniac]

So, basically, circulation wise new mutants was crushing marvel mainstays like captain america, thor, daredevil and iron man. I wouldn't consider those "dregs", but whatever.

 

Did you actually read those "mainstays" books in 1990 and 91? Utter garbage. They were only continuing through sheer momentum, not because they were good or anything. Marvel just didn't want to pull the plug on the different members of the Avengers solo books.

 

 

Yeesh. Indeed, they were hideous.

 

 

Outside of Thor, I don't think I actually opened and tried to read any of these other "crushed" titles. I only bought them out of habit, and trying to keep the runs intact and up to date.

[the blob]

The Thor going crazy plot was a little after then. i liked that. couldn't tell you exactly what was going on in 90/91.

 

I sort of remember Iron Man being ok.

 

Wasn't Daredevil in the middle of the nocenti/JRJR run? that wasn't bad.

 

Cap looked pretty hokey.

 

While they may not have been so great, none of those titles was on the brink of cancellation according to RMAs numbers, though some might have been close to becoming direct market only books if they dropped more

 

 

Fact is, most comics sucked then. Spidey was doing his spidey thing in ASM and Spiderman, but Spectacular could be bad, X-Men/Wolvie were well done...In any month probably 25% of the issues Marvel pumped out were any "good"

[Bosco685]

Now, mind you, my perspective is from an isolated small town. We had to drive 40 miles every week to get to a comic shop.

This is what we always have to factor into a conversation: where is your perspective based on, along with your experiences that formed this opinion.

 

It's like a few years ago with the Superman 75 anniversary discussion, and RMA stated this book did not hit the market until November 20th, 1992. Even when people posted Youtube videos of the November 18th events in stores, a newspaper article, and the inside cover of Roger Stern's "The Death and Life of Superman" where he talks about November 18th being the day that changed the character.

 

Then it came out that his perspective was based on living and working (I believe with a distributor) in California, where Superman #75 didn't hit the market until the 20th. Yet the first market to receive the book was the East Coast area on November 18th, 1992.

[Bosco685]

New Mutants 87 was THE hot book of that run at the time.

 

What time?

 

March of 1990?

 

Or June?

 

Or September?

 

Or December?

 

Or June, 1991?

 

Because these precise dates matter. The entire thing (that is, the time where the "buzz" would have actually affected PRINT RUNS and SALES) only lasted 14 months, from #87-100, from the very beginning to the end of New Mutants.

Within only a few months, Cable and Liefeld were getting a lot of attention. New Mutants #87 prices were moving so fast from cover to $20-$25, Overstreet couldn't even keep up with the change in demand (as you also pointed out).

 

Now did anyone care about New Mutants #98, and the characters that first appeared in this book? All you have to do is go forward two books to New Mutants #100, and you can see there were fans already writing in about this book.

 

- Who were these three characters that appeared in the book? (Deadpool seemed to have connected with some fans)

 

- Liefeld and Fabian Nicieza assuming creative control, and what a great job they did

 

- Excitement over the upcoming X-Force #1

 

 

 

This reader attributes the success of New Mutants #98 to Deadpool.

 

 

So all of two months later, we were hearing from readers what a success New Mutants #98 was. But it was years later that market prices matched fan excitement. So I am not saying at all there were high prices paid for New Mutants #98 at that time. It was a $5-$8 book due to the excitement over Cable and Liefeld.

 

It was years later that this book finally was getting attention due to the Deadpool series, and talk even back in 2008 of a movie.

[Bosco685]

Because the reality is, you cannot, and I cannot, and no one can, state that "THIS is the day that New Mutants #87 took off"

 

Totally agree. So why keep asking when was the exact time that New Mutants #87 was all of a sudden hot? You and I both realize nobody can say across-the-board when this took place. But within only a few months of New Mutants #87 hitting the market, prices were jumping to $20. And within a short time, Liefeld became a hot creator.

 

Like you pointed out. We are only talking about fourteen (14) issues of a one-hundred issue run. So the changes were happening fast leading up to X-Force. Even with Bob Harras moving Louise Simonson along after being on the book for a little over three years to allow Liefeld to drive the train, this happened at New Mutants 98 (only after 12 issues of Liefeld's involvement with the title). And off to the races we went to the massive X-Force #1 glut which took place

 

Now, granted, I understand that OPG was slow to catch up to reality, but as I have said before, OPG was the great equalizer nationwide...what was hot in one region, once confirmed in the Updates, almost always became hot everywhere. And Jon Warren was VERY good at keeping things updated in those days.

 

1989-1991 had so many changes taking place in our hobby, it was overwhelming for a market guide to keep pace.

 

Overstreet was so behind on tracking trends when Silver Age started to explode, there were dealers in the New Jersey and New York area that would gladly pull out Overstreet to pay 50% of what was shown. Then they would price these books for two-three times what Overstreet was stating. The market was starting to move way too fast to count on an annual or quarterly update on average prices.

 

EXAMPLE:

 

• Overstreet 18 (1988-1989): Captain America 100 is priced at $12 (MINT).
  
• Overstreet 20 (1990-1991): Captain America 100 is priced at $120 (N-MT).
  

 

And this type of realization of how far behind Overstreet was to this new, fast-moving pricing trend opened the door for someone like Wizard Magazine to hit the market in 1991. Otherwise, why would anyone move away from Overstreet?

 

Overstreet initially missed the boat on what was happening with New Mutants, Rob Liefeld and Cable. It was happening quicker than their market assessment could clearly detect.

[seanfingh]

The week that GOTG 1 came out, there were still NM 87 on the shelf of the comic shop I sold a Hulk 181 to in South Bend. I got 10 GOTG 1 and 5 or 6 NM 87 thrown in to the deal. I think they were about three months apart in publish dates. 87 was just starting to get a little spec buzz, but 86 was hotter at that point. Infinitely hotter.

 

Enjoy my anecdotes!

[southerncross]

You mention the late pricing on the Overstreet. But does anyone remember Comic Values Monthly ? The shops in Brisbane use them as the prices listed for books modern to the silver age were way higher and the CVM as the title states was published monthly. Any hot modern books were priced higher very quickly as what was possible in printed format. I don't have the magazine now as I tossed it years ago. But maybe someone out there maybe still has copies thru this period.

[Jeffro.]

I think I still have a copy of CVM somewhere.

[whetteon]

New Mutants and Excalibur were the ultra-ginger stepchildren of the mutant tableau. No one cared about either of them until Liefeld. No one ever cared about Excalibur.

 

 

Soon as NM #87 hit big my friends and I went and started buying up all the NM copies we could find starting with about NM #91. We had them all bagged and boarded by the time we got home. . We had multiples of each. Of course this is an individual perspective. Who knows what all the other kids were doing across America at the time.

Edited November 13, 2013 by whetteon

[Cimm]

New Mutants and Excalibur were the ultra-ginger stepchildren of the mutant tableau. No one cared about either of them until Liefeld. No one ever cared about Excalibur.

 

 

Soon as NM #87 hit big my friends and I went and started buying up all the NM copies we could find starting with about NM #91. We had multiples of each.

 

I, on the other hand, collected New Mutants avidly, looked forward to it every month... until I opened up my pull list bag and saw that cover for NM #86... I took it out, put it on the shelf, and cancelled my New Mutants pull. Financially, I regret that. Tastefully, it was a wise decision. Liefeld sucked then, he continued to suck into the nineties, and he sucketh verily unto today.

 

I still have New Mutants 1-85, somewhere...

 

I do, however remember the mania that surrounded his run up through 100, and the big foofarah about him getting X-Force to replace the New Mutants title, and the subsequent big blowup when he and Todd McFarlane got the expanded ego disease and pulled out to do their own company... I would say, if memory served, the Liefeld mania hit the Asheville, NC area comic fans around issue #89 or 90...

[ThoseBackPages]

So, basically, circulation wise new mutants was crushing marvel mainstays like captain america, thor, daredevil and iron man. I wouldn't consider those "dregs", but whatever.

 

Did you actually read those "mainstays" books in 1990 and 91? Utter garbage. They were only continuing through sheer momentum, not because they were good or anything. Marvel just didn't want to pull the plug on the different members of the Avengers solo books.

 

 

Yeesh. Indeed, they were hideous.

 

 

Outside of Thor, I don't think I actually opened and tried to read any of these other "crushed" titles. I only bought them out of habit, and trying to keep the runs intact and up to date.

 

sounds a lot like todays Marvel & DC

[the blob]

The week that GOTG 1 came out, there were still NM 87 on the shelf of the comic shop I sold a Hulk 181 to in South Bend. I got 10 GOTG 1 and 5 or 6 NM 87 thrown in to the deal. I think they were about three months apart in publish dates. 87 was just starting to get a little spec buzz, but 86 was hotter at that point. Infinitely hotter.

 

Enjoy my anecdotes!

 

Anecdotes are great, but very much anectodatal. One of my shops still had many many copies of Saga 1 on the shelves about 5-6 issues into the series...about 2-3 weeks before it temporarily became a $75-$100 book raw. I, of course, sold those copies right away at $30 a pop, proving that I am very adept at selling too early. They also had Walking Deads on the rack (in quantity) into the early 80s when the series was almost at 100.

[kimik]

A case is 150-300 books (probably 300 for New Mutants #98.) A long box of bagged/boarded books is about 250. That's really not that much for a store to have as back stock.

 

For a store with only 150 - 200 file customers, an extra case is a lot.

 

As far as the other one, he emptied out part of one storage area and it had 1 long box of NM 98s. How many other copies are still lurking in his overstock?

 

For a store owner to still have cases of certain books doesn't mean much, because hundreds of stores routinely bought books by the case in that time period. And if they STILL have a case, 23 years after the book first came out, they prove the point: the book was a dud for most of its life, and only the most ardent speculator stuck it out for the 18 years or so that it took to finally pay off! How is that not just luck by this point, rather than effective speculation? The book was worthless for 18 years!

 

I am not arguing that NM 98 was a dud for a while, just the comment you made that it was not speculated on. I am giving you two cases showing that it was. These stores did speculate on NM 98, and likely along with a ton of others. As the smaller store owner told me, when you can buy them for half cover, at $0.50 per book it was not a huge risk.

 

However, it is also erroneous to say that it too 18 years for it to break out. I can remember it popping when the first Deadpool mini came out, and then later in the 90s when the regular series started. It ebbed and flowed with the popularity of the character, just like any other (e.g. Punisher - dead, hot, dead, hot)

 

First appearances were speculated on? Mmm...I dunno, no one bought cases of Thor #412 and put them away. No one has cases of New Warriors #1 still hanging around. Neither Deadpool, Domino, nor Gideon made much of an impact on the comics world when they were available for ordering.

 

What were the potentially hot issues, #1 issues, and first appearances that were speculated on that actually turned out to be winners?

 

Ghost Rider #1 took retailers by surprise. It wasn't speculated on during ordering.

 

Spiderman #1 took no one by surprise. It WAS speculated on during ordering.

 

GR #1 was worth $25 by summer. Spiderman #1...? Eh. Not so much.

 

Superman #50 caught everyone with their pants down. So did Batman #457, and Robin #1. No one speculated on them when ordering.

 

The one owner I talked to speculated on NM 98 because it featured first appearances in an X-title with a hot artist. He said that the wholesale discount made it worthwhile to speculate on a case or two of books with a first appearance or new #1 since he could blow them out at cost (what was it back then, 50 cents apiece?) readily if needed.

 

He said he has a case of GR #1 and some other GR issues (early issues with Punisher x-overs and the glow in the dark cover issue) as well sitting in the back along with a bunch of other late 80s through early 90s books. He pulled out a case of Infinity Gauntlet #1s for a recent show, along with another case of McSpidey #1 Silver for a show in September, so I would not be surprised if he has a case of New Warriors #1s sitting in the back as well........

 

Like I said, he was speculating an all new #1s and first appearances back then since the cost was minimal relative to the potential return - just getting $2 for a new #1 was a huge win at the wholesale costs.

 

NM #98 has been far too valuable, for far too long, for the light to not be shone on hoards and mini-hoards, and sold. Your examples are almost certainly the huge exceptions to the rule by now. I doubt there are more than a couple dozen people worldwide who have more than 25 copies of this book at this point.

 

How many long standing stores have storage lockers/warehouse areas full of boxes they have not gone through in years? I doubt that two stores in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada are the only ones that have boxes of unsorted spec Copper and early modern books in storage.

 

My current file LCS owner is slowly starting to clean out their back stock in storage. He has barely made a dent, but there were big wins in the first few boxes (these would be the newest books). A few months ago he pulled out a small pile of leftover New 52 Batman #1s and Detective #1s (1st prints) he did not remember he had. Another box had his Saga #1 1sts in it. These are books that are less than 2 years old.

 

Due to costs, store owners do not speculate as rampantly as they did in the late 80s/early 90s ($0.50 or less per copy back then vs. $1.00 - $1.50 now wholesale), but they still have extra copies of most books in storage that they forget about and dig out at a later date.

Edited November 13, 2013 by kimik

[seanfingh]

 

I never engage in conjecture about speculation. You just never know what is out there. I once saw an entire longbox of Spectre 1s from 1968. They had been water damaged and were worthless, but the fact that at one point there was a longbox of those Spectres means that anything could be hoarded and waiting to be unleashed. Don't even get me started on the longbox of UHG SME15s . . .

[kimik]

The week that GOTG 1 came out, there were still NM 87 on the shelf of the comic shop I sold a Hulk 181 to in South Bend. I got 10 GOTG 1 and 5 or 6 NM 87 thrown in to the deal. I think they were about three months apart in publish dates. 87 was just starting to get a little spec buzz, but 86 was hotter at that point. Infinitely hotter.

 

Enjoy my anecdotes!

 

Anecdotes are great, but very much anectodatal. One of my shops still had many many copies of Saga 1 on the shelves about 5-6 issues into the series...about 2-3 weeks before it temporarily became a $75-$100 book raw. I, of course, sold those copies right away at $30 a pop, proving that I am very adept at selling too early. They also had Walking Deads on the rack (in quantity) into the early 80s when the series was almost at 100.

 

I WD. Buy any back issue you can find at cover off the rack the week before a local show, jack them up to $5 - $8 apiece, and sell them all to fanboys.

[Mr.Diggler]

So if the max print run was 250K,25K are destroyed.That leaves 225K(are you impressed by my guzitas)

Does anyone know what the print run of say a Hulk 181 is?

 

 

 

Relatively speaking, NM #98 is a high print run.

 

[ThoseBackPages]

The week that GOTG 1 came out, there were still NM 87 on the shelf of the comic shop I sold a Hulk 181 to in South Bend. I got 10 GOTG 1 and 5 or 6 NM 87 thrown in to the deal. I think they were about three months apart in publish dates. 87 was just starting to get a little spec buzz, but 86 was hotter at that point. Infinitely hotter.

 

Enjoy my anecdotes!

 

Anecdotes are great, but very much anectodatal. One of my shops still had many many copies of Saga 1 on the shelves about 5-6 issues into the series...about 2-3 weeks before it temporarily became a $75-$100 book raw. I, of course, sold those copies right away at $30 a pop, proving that I am very adept at selling too early. They also had Walking Deads on the rack (in quantity) into the early 80s when the series was almost at 100.

 

I WD. Buy any back issue you can find at cover off the rack the week before a local show, jack them up to $5 - $8 apiece, and sell them all to fanboys.

 

Yes Please

[kimik]

I never engage in conjecture about speculation. You just never know what is out there. I once saw an entire longbox of Spectre 1s from 1968. They had been water damaged and were worthless, but the fact that at one point there was a longbox of those Spectres means that anything could be hoarded and waiting to be unleashed. Don't even get me started on the longbox of UHG SME15s . . .

 

I was buying books in 2003 or so from a local collector that started speculating with 20-30 copies per book in the mid 70s through mid 80s. He was selling them for premium prices at the time raw on eBay. Beautiful unread copies - I foolishly passed on his best X-Men #94s, Hulk 181s, and GS X-Men #1s. He sent them to CGC and ended up with multiple 9.4s and 9.6s.