Why do people think New Mutants #98 had a "high print run"...? 0

[the blob]

First appearances were speculated on? Mmm...I dunno, no one bought cases of Thor #412 and put them away.

----------------------

 

My LCS did. Something like 1200 copies of Thor 412. Ditto the die cut Wolverine cover (50?), Darkhawk 7 (punisher) and Punisher War Journal wolverine issues. When he went out of business in 2000 he bulked them out for like 5 cents each.

[the blob]

Actually, I think it was a dime each. Along with about 2,000 Jim Lee X-Men 1s and probably another 10 boxes of misc. 90s drek. He was frigging ecstatic. I think it was via Craig's List, maybe not right after he closed, maybe 2001/2.

[rjpb]

Whatever the print run number was, it was too high.

[kimik]

I WD. Buy any back issue you can find at cover off the rack the week before a local show, jack them up to $5 - $8 apiece, and sell them all to fanboys.

 

Yes Please

 

It is a nice racket. Buy the latest 3 months worth of books on the shelves, mark them up, and watch them sell. Earlier in the year at a show in Calgary I was getting $25 for my copies of #108 (or whatever 1st Ezekiel is) even though they were still on the shelves at the LCSs.

[RockMyAmadeus]

New Mutants and Excalibur were the ultra-ginger stepchildren of the mutant tableau. No one cared about either of them until Liefeld. No one ever cared about Excalibur.

 

 

Soon as NM #87 hit big my friends and I went and started buying up all the NM copies we could find starting with about NM #91. We had multiples of each.

 

I, on the other hand, collected New Mutants avidly, looked forward to it every month... until I opened up my pull list bag and saw that cover for NM #86... I took it out, put it on the shelf, and cancelled my New Mutants pull. Financially, I regret that. Tastefully, it was a wise decision.

 

This statement made me

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

You mention the late pricing on the Overstreet. But does anyone remember Comic Values Monthly ? The shops in Brisbane use them as the prices listed for books modern to the silver age were way higher and the CVM as the title states was published monthly. Any hot modern books were priced higher very quickly as what was possible in printed format. I don't have the magazine now as I tossed it years ago. But maybe someone out there maybe still has copies thru this period.

 

I have those CVMs, somewhere.

 

Man, was that mag a wreck.

 

Remember when Flash the TV series premiered in the fall of 1990?

 

All of a sudden, Flash #1 (1987) was a $30 book!

 

[Hamlet]

Does anyone want some of those Wolverine 50s?

 

I'll give you a great price

 

My LCS did. Something like 1200 copies of Thor 412. Ditto the die cut Wolverine cover (50?), Darkhawk 7 (punisher) and Punisher War Journal wolverine issues. When he went out of business in 2000 he bulked them out for like 5 cents each.

[Bronty]

True story, CVM made an apparent error or typo one month with regards to fugitoid #1. It went from $8 to $96 back to $8 the following month.

 

Guess which month I traded in my copy of fugitoid 1 to the LCS ?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because the reality is, you cannot, and I cannot, and no one can, state that "THIS is the day that New Mutants #87 took off"

 

Totally agree. So why keep asking when was the exact time that New Mutants #87 was all of a sudden hot?

 

I guess because I'm stupid, and don't know I'm directly contradicting myself....

 

orrrrrr....

 

Because that's not really what I said.

 

There is a subtle point here that you're missing: while it is true that no one can point to a certain day, or even week or month, when New Mutants #87 became "the must have item", it IS possible to say "this copy of New Mutants #87 sold for $XX on this date."

 

That is the precision that I am referring to, because it is the only precision that matters. If someone was willing to pay $20 for the book, especially in an era (1989-1991) when $20 was, give or take, the threshold between "yeah, that'd be cool to own" and "OMG OMG OMG, MUST HAVE MUST HAVE!!!!! "

 

When Bill Townsend, owner of Electric City Comics, reports that he sold New Mutants #87 for $5 in late 1990...that's a real number, attached to a real timeframe.

The point I'm making is a simple one: there was buzz on New Mutants. Those paying attention...myself, Caira, you....were speculating on it. I was doing it because I saw what had happened with McFarlane, and totally missed the boat (because I didn't start buying comics in earnest until early 1990.)

 

Was it wildfire in 1990? No. That wouldn't happen until 1991. And that brings home my point: there was buzz, but it didn't translate into significant increases in print runs or sales on New Mutants as they were being published. All the print run info and SOOs and Cap City orders all bear this out. If everyone was convinced that New Mutants would be worth speculating on, the print runs and sell-throughs would have been substantially higher, in a substantially shorter time. But it only increased about 60-70% until issue #100.

 

Lest anyone disbelieve me, that this can't happen that fast, go look back at the numbers for Adventures of Superman #496 to 498.

 

Refresher:

 

Cap City orders...

 

#496 - 17,700

#497 - 25,000

#498 - 80,000

 

...in two months, a near five-fold increase.

 

You and I both realize nobody can say across-the-board when this took place. But within only a few months of New Mutants #87 hitting the market, prices were jumping to $20. And within a short time, Liefeld became a hot creator.

 

This is just not true. Sorry. If you change it to "by early 1991, after #87 had been out for a year or so, it was a $20 book", I'm with you, but not within "only a few months." That's just not what happened.

 

Now, granted, I understand that OPG was slow to catch up to reality, but as I have said before, OPG was the great equalizer nationwide...what was hot in one region, once confirmed in the Updates, almost always became hot everywhere. And Jon Warren was VERY good at keeping things updated in those days.

 

1989-1991 had so many changes taking place in our hobby, it was overwhelming for a market guide to keep pace.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit there. In fact, Jon Warren, the editor of the Update at the time, did a better job of keeping track of things in this time period...when the Update went from once a year to every two months to every month...than at any other time during Overstreet's entire history, before or since.

 

Every publication was slow to react...but the Update under Warren was just about as accurate as it ever could possibly be, especially in an era pre-internet. Frankly, it's astonishing looking back at the work he and his team did.

 

Overstreet was so behind on tracking trends when Silver Age started to explode, there were dealers in the New Jersey and New York area that would gladly pull out Overstreet to pay 50% of what was shown. Then they would price these books for two-three times what Overstreet was stating. The market was starting to move way too fast to count on an annual or quarterly update on average prices.

 

Granted. Absolutely true. That is why the Update went bi-monthly in 1989.

 

EXAMPLE:

 

• Overstreet 18 (1988-1989): Captain America 100 is priced at $12 (MINT).
  
• Overstreet 20 (1990-1991): Captain America 100 is priced at $120 (N-MT).
  

 

And this type of realization of how far behind Overstreet was to this new, fast-moving pricing trend opened the door for someone like Wizard Magazine to hit the market in 1991. Otherwise, why would anyone move away from Overstreet?

 

That's an easy question to answer: because Wizard filled a niche that Overstreet wouldn't: the pop-culture, TELL ME WHAT IS HOT TODAY, NOT WHAT WAS HOT YESTERDAY, AND HOW MUCH MONEY WILL I MAKE!!! niche.

 

Wizard was the Update on steroids, and while they may have better reflected the reality of the UPWARD market...once prices WENT up, they *never, ever went down.* Harbinger #1 was listed as a $150 book in Wizard well, well after the crash had occurred. What was Wizard's response? Well, people buy if they think what they have is going up...but they don't if they see their treasured items going DOWN in price...so, instead of doing that in any meaningful manner, Wizard simply de-listed those titles completely.

 

Problem solved. Out of sight, out of mind, and I can keep up the fantasy that the stuff I paid $100 for is still worth that.

 

Wizard magazine was one glorious, slick, glossy, tricked-out, purple-pimp-feathered-hat-and-diamond-studded-cane monument to comics market greed, all in color for $3. The entire magazine was geared to one thing, and one thing only: how much money can I make on these comics I have?

 

Front to back, start to finish.

 

The difference between the Update and Wizard? The Update (before giving in to the inevitable) worked very hard to reflect what WAS...Wizard pushed what they wanted to BE.

 

They both ultimately failed, but Wizard bears the lion's share of the blame.

 

Overstreet initially missed the boat on what was happening with New Mutants, Rob Liefeld and Cable. It was happening quicker than their market assessment could clearly detect.

 

I disagree. Market reports from 1990-1991 tell a different story. One voice (Overstreet/Warren) doesn't say much...many voices, from many places, what they say, and more importantly, what they don't say...that's a lot more of the picture.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

For those with interest in these statistical bits of minutiae:

 

 

There's a reason I don't rely much on "what I remember is...", not from anyone, even myself. I keep an extensive research library because the most accurate information is always going to be from the people who were "in the trenches", buying and selling comic books every day, at the time these things happened.

 

I grabbed an OPG Update #14, with market reports written in Sept (since Warren wrote his note in late Sept, I imagine the reports were all due by the 15th.) This was on the shelves about November of 1990, but it's the timing of the reports that really matters. Of the 14 market reports, written by a who's who of comics dealers nationwide and even England (Contarino, Smyth, Linkenbach, Townsend, Giroux, McAlpine), New Mutants #87 is mentioned one single time...by Greg Buls, who is the champion of pimping stuff he wants to be hot. Here's that context:

 

"Current issues: Marvel is once again on the rampage. Ghost Rider continues to literally blow out, as does the new Spiderman book, and finally the Mutant titles. By the end of this year, Mutants will once again rule, led by X-Men and Cable and the rest of the New Mutants. With the arrival of Jim Lee on the X-Men, and Cable and Rob Liefeld on the New Mutants, there should be no stopping these titles. Recent books to watch out for include NM 86, 87, 93 and 94, and X-Men #248 (first Jim Lee X-Men) 256, 257, 258, 268, and 270. By the time this price guide hits the stands, the mutants should be thoroughly engulfed in the X-Tinction Agenda, which should sell phenomenally well and should begin the consolidation of the mutant titles. Of the above books, the two I believe have the most potential (emphasis added) are NM 87 (1st Cable) and X-Men 248. The only thing that should keep 248 from reaching Spiderman 298 status is the greater circulation of the X-Men title."

 

That is the sole and only reference to New Mutants #87 in the entire report, from the middle of September, 1990.

 

Not exactly "wildfire", 8-9 months after NM #87 came out. And look at the language that Buls (actually, probably Howard) uses...he has to qualify NM #87 as the 1st Cable, as if some folks might not know that. As well, the book is couched in with the other NM, and Jim Lee X-Men.

 

New Mutants is mentioned in context with other titles as having "picked up sales." The only other mention of Cable is from that same Bill Townsend as a single line in a greater "back issue" report: "NEW MUTANTS: nearly all the interest in this title is centering on the issues after 85. Cable-mania." (This was the precise time period that Townsend bemoans, a little over a year later, for selling #87 for $5 each.)

 

Speaking of Townsend, he lists a "Top 25 back issue sellers", in terms of X-Men (that is, they count the amount of X-Men back issues sold, and set that at 100%, and then if they sell 247 X-Men copies as back issues that period, and 25 Moon Knight copies, then Moon Knight would be listed as 10% of X-Men sales.)

 

In that top 25, New Mutants is nowhere to be found.

 

One mention of New Mutants #87 directly. Two mentions of "Cable." Two mentions of "Rob Liefeld." About 7-8 reports of New Mutants in the context of new books.

 

Sept of 1990.

 

Something to keep in mind: while this was written, X-Men #270, New Mutants #95, and X-Factor #60 were just showing up on the stands. ORDERS for New Mutants #97 (one issue before #98) would be going in to Diamond and Cap City during this exact same period (and, in fact, accounts for the up in orders for #97 by a substantial amount: #95 was a sellout at the distribution level within a week, and retailers had time to up their orders on this and the other parts {X-Men #272 and X-Factor #62}, but not on #96, which had been ordered the month before. By the time October rolled around, and orders for #98 were due, it sank right back down to #96 numbers.)

 

If I can find my #15, I'll report what that says as well,

 

So what WAS the big report among new and recent back issues?

 

Spiderman. McFarlane. Ghost Rider. And McFarlane. And Ghost Rider. And Spiderman.

 

One mention of New Mutants #87, and that among a handful of other "books to watch"...

 

Quite a bit different from the Dec of 1991 Update I reported on earlier...

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I am not arguing that NM 98 was a dud for a while, just the comment you made that it was not speculated on.

 

One more time: I didn't say that.

 

*I* speculated on it (as well as all the other New Mutants from #93-100.)

 

I said it wasn't anywhere near the speculated issue that people think they remember it was. It was printed in, and sold, about the same number of copies as #96 and #99.

 

We KNOW that it sold fewer copies than #95, while having about the same print run, because #95 sold out at the distribution level within a week (being the first X-Tinction Agenda book in the title), and was immediately reprinted.

 

 

However, it is also erroneous to say that it too 18 years for it to break out. I can remember it popping when the first Deadpool mini came out, and then later in the 90s when the regular series started. It ebbed and flowed with the popularity of the character, just like any other (e.g. Punisher - dead, hot, dead, hot)

 

Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING before replying, folks. This information is already mentioned by me in the first few posts of this thread.

 

[sd2416]

[RockMyAmadeus]

The one owner I talked to speculated on NM 98 because it featured first appearances in an X-title with a hot artist. He said that the wholesale discount made it worthwhile to speculate on a case or two of books with a first appearance or new #1 since he could blow them out at cost (what was it back then, 50 cents apiece?) readily if needed.

 

He said he has a case of GR #1 and some other GR issues (early issues with Punisher x-overs and the glow in the dark cover issue) as well sitting in the back along with a bunch of other late 80s through early 90s books. He pulled out a case of Infinity Gauntlet #1s for a recent show, along with another case of McSpidey #1 Silver for a show in September, so I would not be surprised if he has a case of New Warriors #1s sitting in the back as well........

 

Like I said, he was speculating an all new #1s and first appearances back then since the cost was minimal relative to the potential return - just getting $2 for a new #1 was a huge win at the wholesale costs.

 

While this is true, the flip side is usually ignored (and a huge reason why the vast majority of comics specialty stores have gone out of business): that is, the real cost in terms of lack of cashflow that could be better applied to merchandise that actually sells, plus overhead costs like storage and labor.

 

This is why I can't really operate a successful store: I absolutely cannot handle the idea of selling at a loss to turnover product. This is vital the success of any business, and it's a very difficult thing to do for many in the collectibles fields.

 

Say he has a case of Infinity Gauntlet #1s. Let's say he bought them at 50% off from Diamond (a typical discount.) Say a case of IG #1 is 250 copies.

 

That's $125 that he's got tied up in merchandise that has sat, unmoved, for 22 years. That cash is locked away in product that hasn't sold. It is not working. It is sitting. When you factor in inflation, that $125 he paid in 1991 now has the purchasing power of about (roughly, here) $60. it will only buy $60 worth of goods/services that it would have bought $125 worth of in 1991.

 

Add to that storage costs (cubic footage of a case times the cost per cubic foot of the space it occupies) and labor costs it takes to move it around, however much or little) and the value you had out of that case is lost.

 

"But you can sell Infinity Gauntlet #1 for $10 these days!"

 

Granted.

 

But that $125 in locked up cash, instead of sitting and not even earning interest, could have been released back into the cashflow, and used to buy merchandise that sold, rinse, lather, repeat...and in that 22 years, that $125 in cashflow could have generated 10s of thousands of dollars in revenue...vs. the $1000 or so that you could get for a case today (because no one's paying $10 for all 250 copies.)

 

And, that relies entirely in circumstance. If IG #1 didn't enjoy a brief surge in popularity, you've got even less.

 

Turnover, turnover, turnover. CashFLOW. It's the lifeblood of all business.

 

"But he made his money already, and that case was gravy!"

 

Granted.

 

But that case still represents $125 in actual 1991 cash, locked up, doing no work, losing value, and costing real money.

 

If you're a collector, and LIKE having a case around? Awesome. If you're a speculator, and are hoping for the day it becomes hot? Awesome.

 

If you're a store owner whose very business depends on turnover of merchandise?

 

Super, super dumb.

 

If your business is to sell funnybooks, you have no business not turning over merchandise as quickly as you possibly can, to purchase more merchandise that you can turn over as quickly as you possibly can.

 

Which is why I don't own a store.

[RockMyAmadeus]

First appearances were speculated on? Mmm...I dunno, no one bought cases of Thor #412 and put them away.

----------------------

 

My LCS did. Something like 1200 copies of Thor 412.

 

 

I call total BS.

 

No one knew who the "New Warriors" were, their title wasn't coming out for another 6 months, and Thor was a slow seller.

 

And in 1989, still a couple of years before people were buying cases to "put away."

 

1200 copies of Thor #412...

 

[kimik]

 

I am not arguing that NM 98 was a dud for a while, just the comment you made that it was not speculated on.

 

One more time: I didn't say that.

 

*I* speculated on it (as well as all the other New Mutants from #93-100.)

 

I said it wasn't anywhere near the speculated issue that people think they remember it was. It was printed in, and sold, about the same number of copies as #96 and #99.

 

We KNOW that it sold fewer copies than #95, while having about the same print run, because #95 sold out at the distribution level within a week (being the first X-Tinction Agenda book in the title), and was immediately reprinted.

 

 

 

Sorry, I meant to say speculated in volume as with my original post.

 

As I have stated several times, LCSs at the time were buying extra cases of the book to speculate on it due to the 1st appearances, NM 98 being an X-title, and it being cheap to do so back then. If you do not consider buying a couple of hundred of extra copies to be speculating in volume, then that is fine with me.

 

 

However, it is also erroneous to say that it too 18 years for it to break out. I can remember it popping when the first Deadpool mini came out, and then later in the 90s when the regular series started. It ebbed and flowed with the popularity of the character, just like any other (e.g. Punisher - dead, hot, dead, hot)

 

Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING before replying, folks. This information is already mentioned by me in the first few posts of this thread.

 

 

Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING YOU POST that people are replying to.

 

For a store owner to still have cases of certain books doesn't mean much, because hundreds of stores routinely bought books by the case in that time period. And if they STILL have a case, 23 years after the book first came out, they prove the point: the book was a dud for most of its life, and only the most ardent speculator stuck it out for the 18 years or so that it took to finally pay off! How is that not just luck by this point, rather than effective speculation? The book was worthless for 18 years!

 

 

I was saying that the book was not worthless for 18 years as you asserted (see your quote above) - it was a $5-$10 book locally when the first Deadpool mini came out and a $10-20 book when the Deadpool regular series came out. This is why I was actively buying them as often as they came up at $5 or less in the early to mid-90s - for as long as I have been selling at local shows (1997) and online (1999), it has been a $10+ book. Not quite worthless.......

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I am not arguing that NM 98 was a dud for a while, just the comment you made that it was not speculated on.

 

One more time: I didn't say that.

 

*I* speculated on it (as well as all the other New Mutants from #93-100.)

 

I said it wasn't anywhere near the speculated issue that people think they remember it was. It was printed in, and sold, about the same number of copies as #96 and #99.

 

We KNOW that it sold fewer copies than #95, while having about the same print run, because #95 sold out at the distribution level within a week (being the first X-Tinction Agenda book in the title), and was immediately reprinted.

 

 

 

Sorry, I meant to say speculated in volume as with my original post.

 

As I have stated several times, LCSs at the time were buying extra cases of the book to speculate on it due to the 1st appearances, NM 98 being an X-title, and it being cheap to do so back then. If you do not consider buying a couple of hundred of extra copies to be speculating in volume, then that is fine with me.

 

 

However, it is also erroneous to say that it too 18 years for it to break out. I can remember it popping when the first Deadpool mini came out, and then later in the 90s when the regular series started. It ebbed and flowed with the popularity of the character, just like any other (e.g. Punisher - dead, hot, dead, hot)

 

Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING before replying, folks. This information is already mentioned by me in the first few posts of this thread.

 

 

Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING YOU POST that people are replying to.

 

For a store owner to still have cases of certain books doesn't mean much, because hundreds of stores routinely bought books by the case in that time period. And if they STILL have a case, 23 years after the book first came out, they prove the point: the book was a dud for most of its life, and only the most ardent speculator stuck it out for the 18 years or so that it took to finally pay off! How is that not just luck by this point, rather than effective speculation? The book was worthless for 18 years!

 

 

I was saying that the book was not worthless for 18 years as you asserted (see your quote above) - it was a $5-$10 book locally when the first Deadpool mini came out and a $10-20 book when the Deadpool regular series came out. This is why I was actively buying them as often as they came up at $5 or less in the early to mid-90s - for as long as I have been selling at local shows (1997) and online (1999), it has been a $10+ book. Not quite worthless.......

 

 

 

 

My apologies for using casual language. I forget how absolutely nit-picky everyone is around here when someone says something with which they don't agree...unless, of course, it's their own memories being discussed.

 

 

Allow me to clarify:

 

"The book was FUNCTIONALLY worthless for the 15 years between 1993-2008, and ESSENTIALLY worthless as it relates to Deadpool himself as the main character, from 1990-1993. It didn't pay off as "the first appearance of Deadpool" (aside from the already mentioned mini) for 18 years."

 

Better...?

 

REGARDLESS...the Deadpool mini was already mentioned, and you missed it.

 

And NO, it did not "pop" in 1997 with the new series. It may have experienced the most casual of bumps, but not in ANY way worth mentioning.

 

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

[the blob]

First appearances were speculated on? Mmm...I dunno, no one bought cases of Thor #412 and put them away.

----------------------

 

My LCS did. Something like 1200 copies of Thor 412.

 

 

I call total BS.

 

No one knew who the "New Warriors" were, their title wasn't coming out for another 6 months, and Thor was a slow seller.

 

And in 1989, still a couple of years before people were buying cases to "put away."

 

1200 copies of Thor #412...

 

 

You're right, I was flipping through covers and it was 1200 copies of Thor 459 -- an even worse speculation move!!!

 

But this is also the same guy who bought 1200 or so copies of Thor 339 ten years earlier to try and catch the Beta Ray/Simonson run while it was hot and sat on those for a decade+. But don't tell me some shops/dealers weren't trying to "put away" books they thought might be hot. Legend has it Carbonaro was salting away 500 of every marvel since the mid-70s (from my old shop owner who grew up with him) -- [i sort of believe it as I bought something like 30 NM copies of Black Panther 3 from him once in some deal], not to mention some dealer in the NY area speculated big time on Avengers Annual 10..supposedly like 10,000 copies. Just looking at some of the books Koch had a seemingly infinite supply of 10 years ago and you know he was speculating (or perhaps buying leftovers from the distributor in bulk)

 

For both the Thor 459 and 339 he gave me like 50 copies of each as a store closing parting gift. Gift or albatross, I'm not sure.

 

Given how many bad speculation moves he made it is amazing he lasted until 2000.

Edited November 13, 2013 by the blob

[RockMyAmadeus]

(Don't take my chastising too seriously, Kimik. I'm easily excited.)

 

[vaillant]

New Mutants and Excalibur were the ultra-ginger stepchildren of the mutant tableau. No one cared about either of them until Liefeld. No one ever cared about Excalibur.

 

And this shows how little sales have often to do with quality.