Why do people think New Mutants #98 had a "high print run"...? 0

[fastballspecial]

Wow!

 

Looking up information about Louise Simonson and Rob Liefeld, there is definitely no love lost.

 

However, Cougar never appeared in the New Mutants, although a cover for New Mutants #87 featuring Cougar was made. Instead New Mutants #87 from 1990 came to feature the first appearance of Cable. “(Editor) Bob (Harras) wanted the New Mutants to have an adult leader, because Professor X was gone,” Louise Simonson recalled in Comics Creators On X-Men. “I had thought that the New Mutants would be perfectly fine without an adult around, but Bob wanted one.”

 

“I came up with the character and what his motivation was. (Artist) Rob (Liefeld) came up with the character design. Actually, his original character design was supposed to be for Stryfe, but Bob and I thought it would be better for Cable. I thought about calling him Commander X at one point, but Rob wanted to call the guy Cable and I said, “You know what? Sure, Cable is a fine name.” Anything to get Rob interested in the stories.”

 

“It took me about six months to figure out that Rob really wasn’t interested in the stories at all. He just wanted to do what he wanted to do, which was cool drawings of people posing in their costumes that would then sell for lots of money.”

 

There is no love between those two for a long time now. It really does sum up what multiple people have always said about him. I still cant believe he still has a following. Even the Image guys had enough of him.

 

[vaillant]

I would really love to contact Louise Simonson – thanks Bosco! (thumbs u

 

Bets on who gets Louise Simonson to sign a New Mutants #87 "To Commander X's biggest fan..."

 

If I have to choose a book to ask Louise to sign, it would be a Power Pack, don’t worry.

[vaillant]

There is no love between those two for a long time now. It really does sum up what multiple people have always said about him. I still cant believe he still has a following. Even the Image guys had enough of him.

 

Honestly, I can’t blame Liefeld alone for his poor vision, I blame Harras which definitely emerges as a not-so-uplifting figure from there…

[500Club]

My recollections are the same as yours. The book was occasionally slightly broken out above other run books, but really went nowhere until 2007 or so. I was buying them at $5 per when I could find them from 1992-2005, but had to sit on them for up to 15 years to realize their value.

 

And there is the important point being missed. Though New Mutants #98 was not a key book at the time, it was clearly tied to a short run that had quickly caught on with the market. People were buying these up where they could because otherwise they were going to miss out on the next big thing.

Yeah, but it was all of the 93-100 issues, and not specifically 98. And, as noted before with sales figures, they weren't being bought up to a huge extent. The print runs were less than that of FF.

 

 

Into the mid 90s, the run interst had cooled, but there were obviously people besides me who felt the character had potential that was not yet reflected by market interest. I did the same thing with NTT 2 and Avengers 196 prior to those books being broken out. Some books, like X-Men 221, still aren't broken out, but are recognized by a growing number of collectors.

[500Club]

Wow!

 

Looking up information about Louise Simonson and Rob Liefeld, there is definitely no love lost.

 

However, Cougar never appeared in the New Mutants, although a cover for New Mutants #87 featuring Cougar was made. Instead New Mutants #87 from 1990 came to feature the first appearance of Cable. “(Editor) Bob (Harras) wanted the New Mutants to have an adult leader, because Professor X was gone,” Louise Simonson recalled in Comics Creators On X-Men. “I had thought that the New Mutants would be perfectly fine without an adult around, but Bob wanted one.”

 

“I came up with the character and what his motivation was. (Artist) Rob (Liefeld) came up with the character design. Actually, his original character design was supposed to be for Stryfe, but Bob and I thought it would be better for Cable. I thought about calling him Commander X at one point, but Rob wanted to call the guy Cable and I said, “You know what? Sure, Cable is a fine name.” Anything to get Rob interested in the stories.”

 

“It took me about six months to figure out that Rob really wasn’t interested in the stories at all. He just wanted to do what he wanted to do, which was cool drawings of people posing in their costumes that would then sell for lots of money.”

 

There is no love between those two for a long time now. It really does sum up what multiple people have always said about him. I still cant believe he still has a following. Even the Image guys had enough of him.

Rob has always struck me as being about Rob.

[Bosco685]

Into the mid 90s, the run interst had cooled, but there were obviously people besides me who felt the character had potential that was not yet reflected by market interest. I did the same thing with NTT 2 and Avengers 196 prior to those books being broken out. Some books, like X-Men 221, still aren't broken out, but are recognized by a growing number of collectors.

 

When I read X-Force #1, my first thought was, "What did I just get suckered into buying (along with New Mutants 91-100)."

 

 

But I do agree, NTT #2 and UXM #221 are great books. And let's not forget the importance of NTT #2.

 

Rob Liefeld, a fan of the Teen Titans comics, showed his new character to then writer Fabian Nicieza. Upon seeing the costume and noting his characteristics (killer with super agility), Nicieza contacted Liefeld, saying "this is Deathstroke from Teen Titans." Nicieza gave Deadpool the real name of "Wade Wilson" as an inside-joke to being "related" to "Slade Wilson", Deathstroke.

[500Club]

Into the mid 90s, the run interst had cooled, but there were obviously people besides me who felt the character had potential that was not yet reflected by market interest. I did the same thing with NTT 2 and Avengers 196 prior to those books being broken out. Some books, like X-Men 221, still aren't broken out, but are recognized by a growing number of collectors.

 

When I read X-Force #1, my first thought was, "What did I just get suckered into buying (along with New Mutants 91-100)."

 

 

But I do agree, NTT #2 and UXM #221 are great books. And let's not forget the importance of NTT #2.

 

Rob Liefeld, a fan of the Teen Titans comics, showed his new character to then writer Fabian Nicieza. Upon seeing the costume and noting his characteristics (killer with super agility), Nicieza contacted Liefeld, saying "this is Deathstroke from Teen Titans." Nicieza gave Deadpool the real name of "Wade Wilson" as an inside-joke to being "related" to "Slade Wilson", Deathstroke.

 

I'd heard the Nicieza response before, but I never picked up on the Wade/Slade connection.

[slym2none]

My recollections are the same as yours. The book was occasionally slightly broken out above other run books, but really went nowhere until 2007 or so. I was buying them at $5 per when I could find them from 1992-2005, but had to sit on them for up to 15 years to realize their value.

 

And there is the important point being missed. Though New Mutants #98 was not a key book at the time, it was clearly tied to a short run that had quickly caught on with the market. People were buying these up where they could because otherwise they were going to miss out on the next big thing.

 

Unfortunately, that "thing" died off and became an industry running joke about little feet and accessory pouches until Deadpool became hot.

 

 

 

The guns have pouches... my sides hurt... laughing too much...

 

:: x 1000

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

I would really love to contact Louise Simonson – thanks Bosco! (thumbs u

 

Bets on who gets Louise Simonson to sign a New Mutants #87 "To Commander X's biggest fan..."

 

If I have to choose a book to ask Louise to sign, it would be a Power Pack, don’t worry.

 

Unless I might get punched, I'd ask for that personalisation on a NM87.

 

 

 

 

-slym (pay him enough and he'll take the punch)

[EvenInHisYouth]

can someone explain to this newbie why Walking Dead "matters"?

 

Zombies are COOL, and there's a show on the TEE VEE.

 

Hope that helps. (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Now I have to ask for data to follow the enlightened path of "factual accuracy".

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit there. In fact, Jon Warren, the editor of the Update at the time, did a better job of keeping track of things in this time period...when the Update went from once a year to every two months to every month...than at any other time during Overstreet's entire history, before or since.

 

So if something is a fact, it has to have data to back it up. Right? Otherwise, you are just making a statement based on your personal opinion.

 

1) What metrics validate "just about as accurate as it ever could possibly be" when judging a market tracking source?

 

2) Where are such metrics being tracked to validate "factual accuracy"?

 

3) Were there focus groups or survey results from major store owners where the results proved Jon Warren's period was the most accurate for the techniques available at the time?

 

It's important, as if you are stating what he wrote was the most up-to-date and accurate details for the time (if that is what you are implying), we need to validate the source.

 

1. Frequency.

 

In 1982, when the Update debuted, it was meant to address the rapidly changing market of the day. The fact that the OPG came out once a year was fine (and that's the general "fine", not "every single collector thought it was wonderful, and no one ever complained about its publication rate" fine, for the spectators in the audience) for the 70's, but by 82, the need for a literal Update on prices was recognized and made a reality on a yearly basis (Big Book in the Spring, Update in the Fall.)

 

And that sufficed for the next 7 years. In 1989, however, the market had changed enough that the Update began a bi-monthly schedule, with the Big Book released in the spring (April, I think), and then June, August, October, and December updates. A fifth update was added for February 1991 (#15), and, in response to Wizard, the Update became monthly by 1993 (ish.)

 

Increased frequency alone meant that Overstreet was in a better position to react to and report on market conditions with more accuracy than ever before.

 

2. The addition of Jon Warren as editor in the 80's.

 

Jon Warren did much of the heavy lifting for Overstreet in the late 80's/early 90's, and he did something that Overstreet really had no interest in doing: he encouraged correspondence from not only retailers, but collectors of all stripes, to correct, update, and compile data for the Updates. Quite a few long-standing glitches in the Update and Big Book were fixed during his tenure, and many of those glitches were brought to light (like the Amazing Spiderman #134 and #135 info by none other than Jason Ewert that I posted a while ago) by collectors around the world. Jon LISTENED to everyone, and as a result, the information got more accurate.

 

3. The Market Reports.

 

Each update contained 10-15 market reports from individual retailers from around the country, and even frequently included retailers in the UK and Canada. Because these people were on the ground, doing the daily business of selling comics (and despite what I or any other internet pundits may say, the comics retailer is STILL the most reliable information on the day to day business of the comics industry than anyone else. If Richard Evans says "thus and such is a hot book, and it's selling for $XX, and here's why", I'll believe him over someone who only does conventions once a month, or even eBay sellers like myself, because he has the day to day interaction with collectors that no one else really has.)

 

eBay sales may be touted as having replaced such market reports, but eBay sales are only raw data. They have no context, the buyers don't give any motive for why they paid what they paid, and there's no way to explain why this book sold for $50 last week, and $17 today....outside of theorizing, which is usually pointless.

 

While it's never wise to rely on one source of information, having many sources of information gives a much clearer picture of what was actually happening, in many different places.

 

As far as "metrics" and "focus groups"....you do realize we're talking about comic books, right...?

 

:shrug:

 

The data speaks for itself. No need for surveys or focus groups. Those three details combined to make the OPG the most responsive, most up to date publication it had ever been, and, since the Update isn't published any more, sadly no longer is, and hasn't been for a long time.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Bob Harras is not very competent.

 

And that's about the best that I can say about him.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I dont recall what "Siege Perilous" is but I tend to agree, as I never found convincing the whole idea behind the "Dark Phoenix" storyline, as much as it has been cherished during the years, while I love the early issues (I have read Uncanny from GS1 and about #112 in italian at the time).

 

Siege Perilous was the last dying gasp of Chris Claremont's coattails riding (yes I said it) X-Men career, and it was atrocious. He's very fortunate that Jim Lee came along and gave him a gracious ending to his run.

 

Literally, Nothing from issue #228-269 makes any sense. I dare anyone to string a coherent plot from that run.

 

Claremont had some wonderful plots...wonderful...but he was TERRIBLE at dialogue, and without a strong artist, he just rambles on and on, and goes nowhere. Plot elements introduced that are never resolved, plots that don't make sense, characters who behave differently one issue to another...ick.

[500Club]

 

I dont recall what "Siege Perilous" is but I tend to agree, as I never found convincing the whole idea behind the "Dark Phoenix" storyline, as much as it has been cherished during the years, while I love the early issues (I have read Uncanny from GS1 and about #112 in italian at the time).

 

Siege Perilous was the last dying gasp of Chris Claremont's coattails riding (yes I said it) X-Men career, and it was atrocious. He's very fortunate that Jim Lee came along and gave him a gracious ending to his run.

 

Literally, Nothing from issue #228-269 makes any sense. I dare anyone to string a coherent plot from that run.

 

Claremont had some wonderful plots...wonderful...but he was TERRIBLE at dialogue, and without a strong artist, he just rambles on and on, and goes nowhere. Plot elements introduced that are never resolved, plots that don't make sense, characters who behave differently one issue to another...ick.

Among 226-269 were the three part Brood and three part Genosha stories that were pretty good. It was like the periods of lucidity often seen in early dementia.

[Bosco685]

As far as "metrics" and "focus groups"....you do realize we're talking about comic books, right...?

 

When it comes to market trackers to advise business owners what they may want to consider charging for their wares, "comic books" being the product is just a side factor. It is about knowing your market, and not having a missed opportunity on your returns.

 

Overstreet and GPA charge for these services too. They don't do this out of the kindness of wanting people to make a whole bunch of money while they watch.

 

:shrug:

 

The data speaks for itself. No need for surveys or focus groups. Those three details combined to make the OPG the most responsive, most up to date publication it had ever been, and, since the Update isn't published any more, sadly no longer is, and hasn't been for a long time.

 

So just very strong opinions and assumptions, but not really any hard facts Overstreet's market assessment approach at the time was the best it had ever been? It's okay. I can respect that.

[DrWatson]

225-250K is what has been previously established, I thought.

 

:shrug:

 

 

 

-slym

Sounds like a high print run to me.

I guess it depends on how many copies you are trying to sell.

[slym2none]

Zing.

 

 

 

-slym

[RockMyAmadeus]

Greg Buls. Haven't heard that name in a long while.

 

"Current issues: Marvel is once again on the rampage. Ghost Rider continues to literally blow out, as does the new Spiderman book, and finally the Mutant titles. By the end of this year, Mutants will once again rule, led by X-Men and Cable and the rest of the New Mutants. With the arrival of Jim Lee on the X-Men, and Cable and Rob Liefeld on the New Mutants, there should be no stopping these titles. Recent books to watch out for include NM 86, 87, 93 and 94, and X-Men #248 (first Jim Lee X-Men) 256, 257, 258, 268, and 270. By the time this price guide hits the stands, the mutants should be thoroughly engulfed in the X-Tinction Agenda, which should sell phenomenally well and should begin the consolidation of the mutant titles. Of the above books, the two I believe have the most potential (emphasis added) are NM 87 (1st Cable) and X-Men 248. The only thing that should keep 248 from reaching Spiderman 298 status is the greater circulation of the X-Men title."

 

That is the sole and only reference to New Mutants #87 in the entire report, from the middle of September, 1990.

 

By September, 1990, New Mutants #87 was starting to be mentioned as a potential hot property, along with Cable and Liefeld being called out by name. Weren't you saying before these books weren't really getting attention until 1991?

 

 

Come on, now, fess up. You don't read most of what I write, do you? That isn't even in the same solar system of what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread.

 

A bypassing mention in a much larger article, in one single report, in a comic book price guide that had 14 of them is "called out by name"...?

 

McFarlane was called out by name in nearly every single article. So was Spiderman. So was Ghost Rider.

 

Jim Lee was called out by name in over half of them.

 

Was it "starting to be mentioned as a potential hot property"?

 

Yes.

 

Emphasis on "starting" and "mentioned" and "potential."

 

In Sept of 1990.

 

Again, with only 5 issues after this (#96-100) remaining in the run.

 

NOT a "$20 book." NOT "wildfire." NOT "speculators were buying New Mutants up by the armload as they came out." NOT "within a few months of release."

 

These differences may seem subtle to some, but they are ultimately the shades that make the big picture so bright, colorful, and clear.

 

Chuck Rozanski claims he was one of the early callers on The Crow being a hot property. Was he wrong? No. Did the books pick up steam? Most definitely.

 

Chuck Rozanski claims a lot of things.

 

Though the source was Greg, it doesn't take away from what was reality. Cable and Liefeld had struck a nerve with the comic market.

 

So we've finally migrated away from "wildfire" to merely "striking a nerve"? Well, at least that's progress.

 

I'll have to disagree with that assessment as well, though. The book...9 months after being published...was a nice simmer on a back burner. And while print runs and sales were up...they were only up about 60% from the start of the run. Until issue #100, Liefeld couldn't even double sales on the title, a title that was already around Avengers West Coast numbers (in fact, when Liefeld began his run, Avengers West Coast was beating New Mutants fairly handily.)

 

Which ultimately means that New Mutants #98 did not have a high print run, especially relative to the Spidermans, X-Mens, and X-Forces of the day.

 

Hell, it didn't even beat X-Factor #63 that month .

 

 

The End.

 

"...weren't really getting attention before 1991"....honestly....

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

As far as "metrics" and "focus groups"....you do realize we're talking about comic books, right...?

 

When it comes to market trackers to advise business owners what they may want to consider charging for their wares, "comic books" being the product is just a side factor. It is about knowing your market, and not having a missed opportunity on your returns.

 

Overstreet and GPA charge for these services too. They don't do this out of the kindness of wanting people to make a whole bunch of money while they watch.

 

The word "metric" is merely the way snobs say "measurement." And NO, in 1989, no one was using "metrics" as a concept in the comics industry. And NO, in 1989, no one was using "focus groups" to find out what people really thought. They just asked them, like normal people. And NO, in 1989, no one was using market surveys to figure out if Jon Warren was doing a better job on OPG than had ever been done.

 

All those things may have provided nice data, but the absence of those things does not therefore equal the absence of facts.

 

:shrug:

 

The data speaks for itself. No need for surveys or focus groups. Those three details combined to make the OPG the most responsive, most up to date publication it had ever been, and, since the Update isn't published any more, sadly no longer is, and hasn't been for a long time.

 

So just very strong opinions and assumptions, but not really any hard facts Overstreet's market assessment approach at the time was the best it had ever been? It's okay. I can respect that.

 

You think the frequency of publication is an opinion and assumption? Because I can SHOW YOU these publications actually exist, and were actually published, in the actual time frames being discussed.

 

You think Jon Warren's openness to hearing from collectors around the world is opinion and assumption? When it's there, on the printed page, for all to see? It's just an opinion that he was open to outside information, thereby improving the data in the Updates and Big Book? (Here's a fact for you..."market surveys" are merely collections of what...? Right. People's opinions. )

 

You think market reports of what is selling, and what for, are opinions and assumptions? You think "X-Men is selling 47% better for me this time than it was last year" is an opinion and assumption? You think "I sold a VG copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 for $1,000" is an opinion and assumption?

 

You have a very, very odd idea of what is a fact, and what is an opinion.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I dont recall what "Siege Perilous" is but I tend to agree, as I never found convincing the whole idea behind the "Dark Phoenix" storyline, as much as it has been cherished during the years, while I love the early issues (I have read Uncanny from GS1 and about #112 in italian at the time).

 

Siege Perilous was the last dying gasp of Chris Claremont's coattails riding (yes I said it) X-Men career, and it was atrocious. He's very fortunate that Jim Lee came along and gave him a gracious ending to his run.

 

Literally, Nothing from issue #228-269 makes any sense. I dare anyone to string a coherent plot from that run.

 

Claremont had some wonderful plots...wonderful...but he was TERRIBLE at dialogue, and without a strong artist, he just rambles on and on, and goes nowhere. Plot elements introduced that are never resolved, plots that don't make sense, characters who behave differently one issue to another...ick.

Among 226-269 were the three part Brood and three part Genosha stories that were pretty good. It was like the periods of lucidity often seen in early dementia.