Heritage February

[Unca Ben]

About the retouching in the cover of TOS #84, this is a comparison of the unretouched image vs the published cover:

 

subefotos

 

Quite a few differences!

In the instance of the Super Adaptoid's left wing and quiver, and the caption box, could there have been some changes done on a production stat for the published cover, and the retouching reflects what was on the original art?

 

Still, the difference in line weight throughout the main figures is astonishing. Quite a lot seems to have been "re-touched".

[Nexus]

When two of my friends disagree, the reality is that they are both correct.

 

In my opinion, where the early bidding ends is helpful when the final hammer price range is unknown. The MM page is a good example, because people don't know where the market is, and in effect this auction is part of making that market. Thus, early bidding is helpful because, on average, people tend to keep doing early internet bidding until the price hits 50-60% of the final auction price. In the case of MM, it went up to 14K or so and ended at 28K all-in. The fact that it went to 14K allowed me and others to know what it may take to get it, and that's where of course it ended at.

 

On the other hand, Gene's UXM cover early bidding went to around 8-9K, which showed us all that it would end at around 20K. In contrast to the MM cover, we all know the market for JRJR UXM covers has been around 20K for the past 5 years at least, so this information wasn't as helpful as in the case of the MM page, but it still told me that this cover wasn't going to be an outlier. Thus, the early bidding helped everyone, including Gene, know that the cover was going to end around 20K.

 

I would argue that there is no such thing really as "price discovery". All auctions end the early bidding at roughly 50-60% of the "potential" max hammer price (unless a bidding war ensues). Whatever you want to call it, thrill bidding, placehholding, price discovery, doesn't matter. It usually goes to this magical 50-60% no matter what. Now, sometimes it ends for much less than the projected max price, but it rarely goes over it. Thus, the early information (whether we call it price discovery or not) is important information and lets you allocate resources across multiple pieces in a single auction.

 

In my own case, I watch a lot of auctions, and I do bid on a few. The ones I bid on are the ones where I don't know what the final value may be, and thus I want to see if I can get to that 50-60% threshold where people tend to back off. That helps me know how much it'll take to get it come auction time.

 

By the way, notice how this type of bidding may not necessarily increase the final hammer price, it just gets you up to the 50-60% earlier in the process.

 

Hope that helps.

 

You've missed your calling as a diplomat, Hari!

 

I don't agree with the 50-60% magical threshold. Yes, that DOES happen, perhaps frequently, but not enough to be a rule, imo. I'd need to see data to back that up. Regardless, I do know that there are enough collectors out there who may believe that it's a rule, and will adjust their bidding accordingly, depending on where the bidding lands during the Internet session. So the early bidding becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Therefore, I would prefer that bidding be as low as possible heading into the live auction. (Consignors, of course, want bidding to be as HIGH as possible, for obvious reasons!)

 

If I'm after the UXM #176 cover, I want the bidding to be as suppressed as possible during the Internet session. I don't want any wild card bidders getting any ideas. Yes, there is market data supporting a $20K price range...but what buyer wants the live auction to start at $20K? Not me and not Gene....who needs some nut out there thinking this should now be a $40K cover because of a perceived 50-60% rule?

 

This is even MORE true for pieces that have no comps. The sky's the limit, then, and the early bidding only serves to encourage a higher winning bid.

 

The market has been anything but rational the last few years. I would rather not enable the madness as it doesn't help my collecting. But come the day I dump it all, I will welcome price discovery with open arms!

 

 

[drdroom]

Ferran, can you clarify what the image on the left is? Is it an old production photocopy? Is it prior to any water damage/ restoration of the OA? What does "retouching" refer to, Silver Age production work or contemporary restoration? Sorry for my confusion if this is obvious to everyone else...

[batman_fan]

About the retouching in the cover of TOS #84, this is a comparison of the unretouched image vs the published cover:

 

subefotos

 

Quite a few differences!

In the instance of the Super Adaptoid's left wing and quiver, and the caption box, could there have been some changes done on a production stat for the published cover, and the retouching reflects what was on the original art?

 

Still, the difference in line weight throughout the main figures is astonishing. Quite a lot seems to have been "re-touched".

 

This cover is pretty darn amazing, but I have to say, I personally loved the image in the Captain America 101 splash

 

[GreatEscape]

About the retouching in the cover of TOS #84, this is a comparison of the unretouched image vs the published cover:

 

subefotos

 

Quite a few differences!

In the instance of the Super Adaptoid's left wing and quiver, and the caption box, could there have been some changes done on a production stat for the published cover, and the retouching reflects what was on the original art?

 

Still, the difference in line weight throughout the main figures is astonishing. Quite a lot seems to have been "re-touched".

 

This cover is pretty darn amazing, but I have to say, I personally loved the image in the Captain America 101 splash

 

Retouched or not, this Cap cover looked very impressive in the Heritage display. The piece is huge-- larger than twice up-- and drew tons of praise from non-collectors even with Action 15 cover in the same case. Heritage estimate was $90k…the $167k was triple the $55k "discovery" prior to the live auction!

[Ferran Delgado]

Ferran, can you clarify what the image on the left is? Is it an old production photocopy? Is it prior to any water damage/ restoration of the OA? What does "retouching" refer to, Silver Age production work or contemporary restoration? Sorry for my confusion if this is obvious to everyone else...

 

Hi, the unretouched image was published in the spanish edition. Marvel used to store the unretouched images of covers and they sent them overseas for reprinting in other countries. There are plenty of cases like this one, as you can see in my blog:

http://ferrandelgado.blogspot.com.es/search/label/Portadas%20sin%20retocar

They even sent rejected versions.

 

These unretouched versions were also seen in Marvel Indexes, Marvel Age, Marvelmania, Marvel Saga, trading cards, covers of reprint titles like Marvel Tales, Marvel Greatest's Comics, etc...

[Ferran Delgado]

Let me show you a confirmation. This is the image published in Marvel Saga #16. Focus on Marvel Girl's hair:

 

 

Now check out this image published in a spanish comic vs the published comic. Keep focus on Marvel Girl's hair:

 

[drdroom]

Ferran, can you clarify what the image on the left is? Is it an old production photocopy? Is it prior to any water damage/ restoration of the OA? What does "retouching" refer to, Silver Age production work or contemporary restoration? Sorry for my confusion if this is obvious to everyone else...

 

Hi, the unretouched image was published in the spanish edition. Marvel used to store the unretouched images of covers and they sent them overseas for reprinting in other countries. There are plenty of cases like this one, as you can see in my blog:

http://ferrandelgado.blogspot.com.es/search/label/Portadas%20sin%20retocar

They even sent rejected versions.

 

These unretouched versions were also seen in Marvel Indexes, Marvel Age, Marvelmania, Marvel Saga, trading cards, covers of reprint titles like Marvel Tales, Marvel Greatest's Comics, etc...

 

Got it, thanks, and great blog!

So this was period production retouching (quiver, wing, and text box) that I can see) and doesn't bear on the contemporary restoration, which follows the retouched (US publication) version.

[Ferran Delgado]

This is very interesting because it allows you to enjoy the unretouched drawing and imagine the look of the original art like in the case of the ToS cover.

[drdroom]

This is very interesting because it allows you to enjoy the unretouched drawing and imagine the look of the original art like in the case of the ToS cover.

 

Yes, and the original drawing is almost always better! If the restorer was aware of your blog he or she would have faced a choice of restoring to the original Kirby version or to the version altered for first publication, which is what they did whether knowingly or not.

[drdroom]

Which raises a question: if extensive redrawing has to be done to restore a page anyway, then restoration to original Kirby version is just as authentic as restoration to original publication version, that is, it's partly a recreation either way.

 

So which is more marketable? Artist version, with the intelligent aesthetic and storytelling decisions that Kirby made (wing in perspective, quiver reflecting the imitative powers of the Adaptoid)? Or the production version which is more true to the pop cultural history of the piece.

[delekkerste]

Also, for the onlookers, I don't think everyone realizes Gene and Felix and many of the others are good friends. This has been a great discussion, and really helpful to those people learning the ropes.

 

Oh yeah, for sure - the better I know someone, the less need I feel to pull punches, which is why I feel free to go all "Hulk vs. Thing" debating with guys like you and Felix, and why Lambert gets a free pass for saying things to me that would cause me to deck someone I didn't know as well.

 

Anyway, it seems we have come to at least somewhat of a consensus. I'm content to know that people seem to feel that there are at least some instances where price discovery can be beneficial to certain parties, while most would also agree that there are some situations when it is less advisable. We can agree to disagree on the extent of each, but my only point was merely that sometimes it makes sense...I'm not sure how this turned into such a big argument!

[lb jefferies]

I'm not sure how this turned into such a big argument!

We needed a big argument. These boards were getting entirely too mellow.

[James J]

It was a good read........I will take what I need and leave the rest.

[Agent 007]

Lost out for several Thor Kirby's. One day I will own a KIRBY Thor page. I just can't play ball once it hits over $5k. I really was hoping I could buy it around $3k.

[MrBedrock]

"Price Discovery" is a silly concept. The only way to discover price is to be the last bidder. All that pre-bidding does is create conversation, whether between folks or internally for any interested bidders. But any talk that early bidding is strategic and influential on a lots outcome is purely speculative and kind of puffery. As Mitchell Mehdy would say, there is only one strategy - Win!

[delekkerste]

"Price Discovery" is a silly concept. The only way to discover price is to be the last bidder. All that pre-bidding does is create conversation, whether between folks or internally for any interested bidders. But any talk that early bidding is strategic and influential on a lots outcome is purely speculative and kind of puffery. As Mitchell Mehdy would say, there is only one strategy - Win!

 

Wow, Richard, I didn't realize that you had a Ph.D. in game theory in addition to your other illustrious credentials. I guess I'll have to reevaluate everything I said!

[MrBedrock]

"Price Discovery" is a silly concept. The only way to discover price is to be the last bidder. All that pre-bidding does is create conversation, whether between folks or internally for any interested bidders. But any talk that early bidding is strategic and influential on a lots outcome is purely speculative and kind of puffery. As Mitchell Mehdy would say, there is only one strategy - Win!

 

Wow, Richard, I didn't realize that you had a Ph.D. in game theory in addition to your other illustrious credentials. I guess I'll have to reevaluate everything I said!

I really wasn't being snarky.

[JOHNNASH-migration]

"Price Discovery" is a silly concept. The only way to discover price is to be the last bidder. All that pre-bidding does is create conversation, whether between folks or internally for any interested bidders. But any talk that early bidding is strategic and influential on a lots outcome is purely speculative and kind of puffery. As Mitchell Mehdy would say, there is only one strategy - Win!

 

Wow, Richard, I didn't realize that you had a Ph.D. in game theory in addition to your other illustrious credentials. I guess I'll have to reevaluate everything I said!

 

[comix4fun]

"Price Discovery" is a silly concept. The only way to discover price is to be the last bidder. All that pre-bidding does is create conversation, whether between folks or internally for any interested bidders. But any talk that early bidding is strategic and influential on a lots outcome is purely speculative and kind of puffery. As Mitchell Mehdy would say, there is only one strategy - Win!

 

Wow, Richard, I didn't realize that you had a Ph.D. in game theory in addition to your other illustrious credentials. I guess I'll have to reevaluate everything I said!

I really wasn't being snarky.

 

 

 

Well, you did quote Mitch, I assumed you could not possibly be serious.