THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[Jordysnordy]

9 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

On the other hand, the census population is most likely understated due to the fact that all of the AF 15's being graded by the other company would not be included in the CGC census. 

Until they get around to generating a census population report of their own, I assume the numbers in the CGC census might actually be on the low side since I assume the unremoved CPR labels are probably more than offset by the number of copies being slabbed by the other company. 

 

[Aman619]

2 hours ago, blazingbob said:

Listen,  not sure why you posted this but there is no misrepresentation on my end.  

I just commented on the common dealer complaint that the collectors do "stuff" that is one sided from the dealers perspective... when it's the collectors who say the same thing about dealers.  I think there enough self serving action on both sides of the booth so we should always acknowledge that when pointing out the "other side's" actions. I wasn't saying you are guilty of anything in particular. 

[Jaydogrules]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

On the other hand, the census population is most likely understated due to the fact that all of the AF 15's being graded by the other company would not be included in the CGC census. 

Until they get around to generating a census population report of their own, I assume the numbers in the CGC census might actually be on the low side since I assume the unremoved CPR labels are probably more than offset by the number of copies being slabbed by the other company. 

I would argue that a very large percentage of the copies graded by the other company have migrated from CGC holders, and then back again in many instances.  

The CGC census is most certainly bloated with unaccounted for re-subs when it comes to this particular book. What percentage exactly?   Who knows.  I'd guesstimate it's off by at least 15%.  

-J.

[cbbcomics]

3 hours ago, blazingbob said:

Listen,  not sure why you posted this but there is no misrepresentation on my end.  

 Nice tats, Bob. You should definitely go for a full sleeve, though. 

[Spiderturtle]

2 hours ago, Aman619 said:

I just commented on the common dealer complaint that the collectors do "stuff" that is one sided from the dealers perspective... when it's the collectors who say the same thing about dealers.  I think there enough self serving action on both sides of the booth so we should always acknowledge that when pointing out the "other side's" actions. I wasn't saying you are guilty of anything in particular. 

This all came up with me asking about the 7.5.   I've read previous auction listings for af15s on cc.  Some of which brought up the topic of nice gray background.  So not sure why no ones ever heard of such a topic.  Also if someone's going to spend $90k+, a guy's opinion on some chat board is not going to affect it.  When i go to buy a car, i study the car ahead of time.  I'm not gonna let the car dealer infleunce my decision

Edited April 30, 2017 by Spiderturtle

[lou_fine]

33 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

On the other hand, the census population is most likely understated due to the fact that all of the AF 15's being graded by the other company would not be included in the CGC census. 

Until they get around to generating a census population report of their own, I assume the numbers in the CGC census might actually be on the low side since I assume the unremoved CPR labels are probably more than offset by the number of copies being slabbed by the other company. 

I would argue that a very large percentage of the copies graded by the other company have migrated from CGC holders, and then back again in many instances.  

The CGC census is most certainly bloated with unaccounted for re-subs when it comes to this particular book. What percentage exactly?   Who knows.  I'd guesstimate it's off by at least 15%.  

-J.

Yes, but don't forget the X-Factor in all of this is still all of the raw ungraded copies sitting out there in long-term collections still waiting to be graded.

Especially when there is no real reason for anybody to get their copies graded and slabbed until it comes time to sell their books. 

[Spiderturtle]

3 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, but don't forget the X-Factor in all of this is still all of the raw ungraded copies sitting out there in long-term collections still waiting to be graded.

Especially when there is no real reason for anybody to get their copies graded and slabbed until it comes time to sell their books. 

If i had a raw book worth $100k.  I would slab it to protect  from any further handling.  Also if i kick the bucket, it be easier for my family to move the book.

[SC22]

1 minute ago, Spiderturtle said:

If i had a raw book worth $100k.  I would slab it to protect  from any further handling.  Also if i kick the bucket, it be easier for my family to move the book.

Agreed!!

[lou_fine]

9 minutes ago, Spiderturtle said:

14 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, but don't forget the X-Factor in all of this is still all of the raw ungraded copies sitting out there in long-term collections still waiting to be graded.

Especially when there is no real reason for anybody to get their copies graded and slabbed until it comes time to sell their books. 

If i had a raw book worth $100k.  I would slab it to protect  from any further handling.  Also if i kick the bucket, it be easier for my family to move the book.

 

7 minutes ago, SC22 said:

Agreed!!

I think it really depends on what generation of collector you are from.

I know of so many long term collectors from way before the CGC days who are still collecting today that would never think of getting their books slabbed until it came time to sell them.  It's the mentality of these long term collectors and has absolutely nothing at all to do with value. 

At the same time though, there would appear to be a ton of newer collectors from what I call the CGC generation of collectors who would slab a book even if it was worth only cover price, in the hopes of creating some additional imaginary value to something that is basically worthless. 

[SC22]

33 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

I think it really depends on what generation of collector you are from.

I know of so many long term collectors from way before the CGC days who are still collecting today that would never think of getting their books slabbed until it came time to sell them.  It's the mentality of these long term collectors and has absolutely nothing at all to do with value. 

At the same time though, there would appear to be a ton of newer collectors from what I call the CGC generation of collectors who would slab a book even if it was worth only cover price, in the hopes of creating some additional imaginary value to something that is basically worthless. 

Nah I would only slab a book either for it's value or to protect it that's it or both.

[lou_fine]

44 minutes ago, Spiderturtle said:

If i had a raw book worth $100k.  I would slab it to protect  from any further handling.  Also if i kick the bucket, it be easier for my family to move the book.

But then you wouldn't be able to lovingly share it with your collector friends or to peruse through the book at your leisure to enjoy it: 

On 2/27/2017 at 9:02 AM, ciorac said:

 

On 2/27/2017 at 9:02 AM, ciorac said:

 

In addition, if you are talking about moving 6-figure books after you've gone to the big LCS in the sky, it's not a problem at all.  You just have to leave your loved ones with the contact numbers for some of the major auction houses and they will more than gladly sell the book for you on your behalf right from shipping through to grading to listing and selling it for you on their auction site. 

 

 

[SC22]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

But then you wouldn't be able to lovingly share it with your collector friends or to peruse through the book at your leisure to enjoy it: 

In addition, if you are talking about moving 6-figure books after you've gone to the big LCS in the sky, it's not a problem at all.  You just have to leave your loved ones with the contact numbers for some of the major auction houses and they will more than gladly sell the book for you on your behalf right from shipping through to grading to listing and selling it for you on their auction site. 

 

 

Why push non grading on people some people prefer their books graded and some don't big deal....live and let live as they say!! People who don't grade their books are no more true collectors than those that have their books graded both enjoy the hobby just in different ways.

And one you are dead who truly cares....you can just put the notes of how to go about selling the books in your will....your dead comic books cease to exist and so do all other human things.

Edited May 1, 2017 by SC22

[namisgr]

6 hours ago, Jordysnordy said:

In regards to the census, how inflated do we think it is due to CPR books that have not been removed? I know I have had CPR done to some books and since the C and P were not done by CGC, they wouldn't remove the old books from census when I called to nofity them. I understand why they wouldn't change the census but it does throw it out of whack.

Very inflated, I think.  The more expensive the SA comic, the more likely it is to have many, many copies altered by pressing and skewing the CGC census.

[zhamlau]

Not sure if this was discussed yet but just incase not. The AF15 5.0 OW/W on CL sold a few days back. it cleared 36,000.00US. It has great page quality, very off center, and heavy Marvel Chipping. I think this really makes sense with the "Social Media" argument. It didnt look very good but it was structure and general wear wise in nice shape so it graded well. All of its flaws were due to poor cover placement and cutting. The average selling price last year on that book was 27,000.00 US. A very poor lower end of the scale copy of the book just sold for 9000 over last years average price, exactly 25% over just a few months ago...and it was a very unappealing copy with dozen+ compounding chips out of it.

Had the book had 1 or less chips and more centered Any question that same 5.0 sells 45-55k?

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

Had the book had 1 or less chips and more centered Any question that same 5.0 sells 45-55k?

Isn't it simply amazing how CGC 5.0's graded by exactly the same company only a month apart can look so completely different?

The fugly CL 5.0 copy graded in January of this year:  http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fdefault.asp%3FFocused%3D1%26pg%3D58%26x%3D32%26y%3D11%23Item_1176537&id=1176537

versus the much nicer looking (albeit with the stain on the back cover) CC 5.0 copy graded in December of 2016 that sold for $57K last month:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?referral=EAlist&id=700363&title=AMAZINGFANTASY

I am glad to see that collectors now appear smart enough to buy the book as opposed to simply and blindly buying the label. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by lou_fine

[namisgr]

You're stuck with the appearance of the covers and the numerical grade, though.  The $57K copy that has such a nice looking front cover also has paper beginning to toast, and it may quite well be that the interior covers had tanning halos.  We can't see the interiors, but the graders did.  I just don't think one can draw conclusions about comparative grades on two copies of an issue just from looking at the covers inside their plastic slabs.

[zhamlau]

2 hours ago, namisgr said:

You're stuck with the appearance of the covers and the numerical grade, though.  The $57K copy that has such a nice looking front cover also has paper beginning to toast, and it may quite well be that the interior covers had tanning halos.  We can't see the interiors, but the graders did.  I just don't think one can draw conclusions about comparative grades on two copies of an issue just from looking at the covers inside their plastic slabs.

No, I'm not stuck. This is EXACTLY my point. The book across the board is up substantially in the last few months, and copies with good "Social Media" value have seen nearly 100% price increases in the last 5 month. That book that sold 57k was in average below average shape for the grade....and it sold for more than TWICE what 5.0 sold for in 2016 on average. Its FRONT cover appeal was awesome, everything else below average, and it destroyed the price point. This book is in structure wise infinitely better shape. Great page quality, no major staining, spine tight, running the table its a longer living nicer structure grade book.  It sold for 21,000.00 US less. You could have at one point last year have almost BOUGHT another entire new copy of the book in the same grade with the differences in prices between the two.

Basically in summary:

1. Front cover condition is all that is mattering it seems to this new class of buyer that has emerged in the last year.

    A. No intense marvel chipping, one chip at most if.

    B. Good cover color

    C. Decent centering

    D. Blue Label, CGC, Higher the number the better

2. Structure grades like PQ and qualifiers mean less to them than they should. Back Cover can be trashed, as long as front looks great (and pages aren't brittle/brown).

3. Prices across the board are up between 25-100% in grade, better that front cover the closer to the 100% you get.

 

Is it right? Is it sustainable? cant answer that but the reality on the ground is pretty much established I think.

[Spiderturtle]

There's a 6.0 ss on ebay that can probably for $55k off ebay.  Not sure if 5.0s are gonna hit $50k other than that cc copy

[namisgr]

1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

No, I'm not stuck. This is EXACTLY my point.

We're in agreement.  My post followed that of Lou_Fine and was directed there.

Edited May 1, 2017 by namisgr

[lou_fine]

5 hours ago, namisgr said:

You're stuck with the appearance of the covers and the numerical grade, though.  The $57K copy that has such a nice looking front cover also has paper beginning to toast, and it may quite well be that the interior covers had tanning halos.  We can't see the interiors, but the graders did.  I just don't think one can draw conclusions about comparative grades on two copies of an issue just from looking at the covers inside their plastic slabs.

+1

Yes, with this particular copy, you would need to have the book in hand as opposed to just looking at cover scans in order to determine a proper grade for the book. 

My concern would be if the staining and issues that appears on the back cover have migrated into some of the interior pages, but cannot tell this from the scan.