How much of a premium are we talking for newsstand issues v/s direct editions? 10 10

[RockMyAmadeus]

So we're all agreed that there are fewer newsstand copies from 1984-forward.

 

Fewer newsstand copies, no.

 

Fewer ultra high grade newsstand copies, yes.

 

Therefore they're rarer than their direct market counterparts. This is a hobby where bragging rights often matter. In recent years we've seen that print runs matter. Putting those two things together, many collectors are starting to seek out newsstand copies because as we've all agreed upon...... they're not as plentiful. I've already started seeing a slight price difference in the books I sell. Put the same two books up for sale in the same condition, the newsstand sells quicker and slightly higher. It's not a huge difference at the moment but the market is gradually moving that direction. I'm not sure why we're arguing that point. It seems evident.

 

I don't agree with that assessment, so I guess we're arguing.

 

I am not seeing the price differences you are seeing, and I don't see the market moving in that direction for PRE-1994 books. And if the market does show inclinations towards that direction, I have little doubt that it will be answered in force, driving the seeming difference back to negligible.

 

 

[HarrisonJohn]

The ironic thing in the original discussion is that, perhaps the major reason I stopped buying comics in 1976 was someone's silly idea to put a barcode on the front of the comic. There was absolutely no reason this couldn't have been put on the back of the comic.

 

Back cover ad space $$$, I don't think they could sell "95% of our back cover" as well.

[500Club]

1984-1987: 2-3 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1988-1990: 4-6 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1991-1993: 5-10 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1994-1997: 10-20 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1998-2002: 40-50 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

2003-up: 100-1,000 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

So then you do agree that from 1984-up newsstand copies ARE rarer than their direct market counterparts?

 

Newsstand copies from 1985-1993 waned, but did not totally disappear. Depending on the book, there are probably 1/2 as many high grade copies as there are direct market copies. Obviously, this average goes down the farther down the road we get.

 

I hope that just about anyone can see that the above is pure conjecture. RMA hasn't cited a single fact which supports these conclusions. In fact, he even deleted his "supposition" disclaimer in the original post.

The supposition disclaimer is still there.

 

The numbers may not be exact, but the concept and trend that's being illustrated is dead on. That is, the idea that DM buying took over from newsstand buying, and the supply of books reflects this.

[lightninglad]

Newsstand copies from 1985-1993 waned, but did not totally disappear. Depending on the book, there are probably 1/2 as many high grade copies as there are direct market copies. Obviously, this average goes down the farther down the road we get. Comic shops dominated the landscape, and most buying shifted from the newsstand to the comic shop during this period. Newsstand sales, however, still accounted for between 20-40% of the entire market during this period.

 

2. "Comics Between the Panels" by Mike Richardson and Steve Duin, which discusses the direct market, including the information that by 1988, the direct market controlled roughly 70% of the comics distribution market between them (from whence comes the "20-40%" figure stated earlier, as well as the dwindling newsstand market and the distribution wars of the mid 90's.)

 

Fewer newsstand copies, no

 

Based on your previous comments, I assumed that we agreed there were fewer newsstand copies by the mid 80's. We don't know the exact moment the pendulum swung in favor of direct market but based on your own comments newsstand copies were less than a third of the market by 1988. So maybe at the very least we can all agree that from 1988-forward newsstand comics are rarer than their direct market counterparts.

Edited March 15, 2014 by lightninglad

[RockMyAmadeus]

Newsstand copies from 1985-1993 waned, but did not totally disappear. Depending on the book, there are probably 1/2 as many high grade copies as there are direct market copies. Obviously, this average goes down the farther down the road we get. Comic shops dominated the landscape, and most buying shifted from the newsstand to the comic shop during this period. Newsstand sales, however, still accounted for between 20-40% of the entire market during this period.

 

2. "Comics Between the Panels" by Mike Richardson and Steve Duin, which discusses the direct market, including the information that by 1988, the direct market controlled roughly 70% of the comics distribution market between them (from whence comes the "20-40%" figure stated earlier, as well as the dwindling newsstand market and the distribution wars of the mid 90's.)

 

Fewer newsstand copies, no

 

Based on your previous comments, I assumed that we agreed there were fewer newsstand copies by the mid 80's. We don't know the exact moment the pendulum swung in favor of direct market but based on your own comments newsstand copies were less than a third of the market by 1988. So maybe at the very least we can all agree that from 1988-forward newsstand comics are rarer than their direct market counterparts.

 

Yes and no.

 

It's important to distinguish between *sales figures* and *extant copies*.

 

Yes, by about 1988, newsstand sales account for less than a 1/3 of the total market...but we're not talking about what was then, we're talking about what we see NOW. Remember: newsstands were ubiquitous, well into the 90's and beyond. Though their comics revenues dwindled, they didn't just sell comics. And, there are far, far more newsstands across North America than there are comic specialty stores.

 

Keeping that in mind, understand that the distribution of the extant copies of newsstand books was extremely thorough...that is, newsstands sold individual copies to individuals, and "returned" the rest. Stores, on the other hand, stored backstock, a novel idea in the industry.

 

Now...just as it is now easier to find Direct market copies from this era because they tended to remain in clumps (whether 1st or 5th generation), it's ALSO true that attrition was harder at work among the clumps than it was among the individual newsstand copies...things like floods and other disasters tended to wipe out those clumps a lot faster than broadly scattered individual newsstand copies.

 

And, while it is true that HIGHER grade copies are in greater numbers, that doesn't mean the amount of newsstand copies in ALL grades that survived is substantially smaller, just because they didn't comprise the majority of the market.

 

Even at 70/30, that's still only 2 DM copies per 1 newsstand...not a great deal of difference. And when attrition sets in, we see that the numbers generally have evened out over the decades.

[lightninglad]

things like floods and other disasters tended to wipe out those clumps a lot faster than broadly scattered individual newsstand copies.

 

 

I appreciate your time and thoughts but on that note I'll be exiting the discussion.

[RockMyAmadeus]

things like floods and other disasters tended to wipe out those clumps a lot faster than broadly scattered individual newsstand copies.

 

 

I appreciate your time and thoughts but on that note I'll be exiting the discussion.

 

Why do you think that's funny?

 

Do you think Katrina, et al didn't destroy comic books...?

 

Are comic books impervious to fire...?

 

Our very own Flying-Donut, who is a Copper specialist, lost multiple long boxes in the flooding that hit Virginia about 4-5 years ago.

 

Are you aware that Eclipse Comics lost their entire publisher's stock of back issues TWICE, in 1986 AND 1993, due to flooding? Had they been selling newsstand copies of their books, THOSE copies would still be around, because they would already have been in the hands of buyers/readers/collectors.

 

Flooding is precisely why books like Miracleman #15 are $100-$200 raw.

 

So, I'm not quite sure why that's funny.

 

I guess we'll never know, now....

 

:shrug:

[fastballspecial]

Just to change the conversation. I dont see this book very often at all. The direct version is also pretty scarce, but I am not sure which one is harder to find. From memory I think the Non enhanced direct version was like 13K or something like that. There is also a Thor and an FF version which print runs were even lower, but are not chased as much.

 

ASM 25 V2

Edited March 16, 2014 by Fastballspecial

[bababooey]

 

I guess we'll never know, now....

 

:shrug:

 

 

 

 

 

[the blob]

1976-1978: 100-1,000 newsstand copies to every 1 Direct copy.

------------------------

 

I think this might be high for 77-78, but it will depend on the book and publisher. A few years back I was selling a stack of 1977-78 newstand books on ebay (individually)...and it might have leaned more toward 78, true, but in terms of listings out there I found it to be more like 15-25 newstand vs. 1 direct. and even then they sold at a nice premium over guide for mid-grade copies. factor in shipping and people were paying 3X+ guide for some of these (spiderman, captain america, etc...non-keys)

[the blob]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Amazing-Spider-Man-165-1963-series-Marvel-Jackal-Stegron-/171274707059?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item27e0c4a073

 

here you go, i remember selling this one. early 77. there are a couple of these up on ebay now, many more of the newstand version, but not 100 to 1.

 

of course, i know, it's anecdotal.

[the blob]

Now...just as it is now easier to find Direct market copies from this era because they tended to remain in clumps (whether 1st or 5th generation), it's ALSO true that attrition was harder at work among the clumps than it was among the individual newsstand copies...things like floods and other disasters tended to wipe out those clumps a lot faster than broadly scattered individual newsstand copies.

 

RMA

----------------

 

i agree that the clump hypothesis leads to higher grade copies of DM books based on my own experience of shops and show dealers pulling stuff out of storage and voila, 25 9.6-9.8 copies of each issue of the Byrne Hulk run....

 

as for the clump destruction hypothesis...what are we talking about 2-5% of the books out there getting destroyed by flood, typhoon, fire, earth quake, gas explosion, etc.? i'm not sure any more "clumps" of DM books got destroyed in Katrina sitting in comic shop basements (not that they'd keep comics in a new Orleans basement that floods 4 times year) than newstand copies in the homes of collectors that got flooded. gottah figure there are 50-250 collector homes per shop. Sandy didn't destroy Joe Koch's Avalance of Wonder and he's just a few blocks from New York Harbor, which did flood the area.

Edited March 20, 2014 by the blob

[the blob]

and threads like these are one of the reasons why i took a break for a month+ here. i get sucked in and i can't stop and i have work to do.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1976-1978: 100-1,000 newsstand copies to every 1 Direct copy.

------------------------

 

I think this might be high for 77-78, but it will depend on the book and publisher. A few years back I was selling a stack of 1977-78 newstand books on ebay (individually)...and it might have leaned more toward 78, true, but in terms of listings out there I found it to be more like 15-25 newstand vs. 1 direct. and even then they sold at a nice premium over guide for mid-grade copies. factor in shipping and people were paying 3X+ guide for some of these (spiderman, captain america, etc...non-keys)

Those numbers are for HIGH GRADE (9.6+) copies.

[fastballspecial]

I feel sorry for buyers looking NM+ copies today from newsstands. I seldom even find NM anymore.

 

[HarrisonJohn]

I was looking at DC newsstand and I saw no indication that it was a newsstand, is there any difference anymore? And did Marvel stop newsstand distribution completely?

[the blob]

1976-1978: 100-1,000 newsstand copies to every 1 Direct copy.

------------------------

 

I think this might be high for 77-78, but it will depend on the book and publisher. A few years back I was selling a stack of 1977-78 newstand books on ebay (individually)...and it might have leaned more toward 78, true, but in terms of listings out there I found it to be more like 15-25 newstand vs. 1 direct. and even then they sold at a nice premium over guide for mid-grade copies. factor in shipping and people were paying 3X+ guide for some of these (spiderman, captain america, etc...non-keys)

Those numbers are for HIGH GRADE (9.6+) copies.

 

The Superman Doomsday books must have been favorites at the newstand as I just picked up 3 newstand copies of Superman 74 and 3 of MOS 19. all 9.6+. unfortunately, after jamming them in my backpack with 100 other books the 74s are mostly not so minty anymore despite the backing boards. oh well.

[etanick]

can you show me how to distinguish a direct sale from a newsstand book from 1976 to 1978? because I didn't think there was any differentiation. The bar code showed up on all books from 1976 to 1978 from what I can tell...the distribution system started to take shape with direct and newsstand but the publishers weren't into it yet until 1979 where Marvel started to differentiate with the cross out bar code and then a few months later, the spider-man head.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

I was looking at DC newsstand and I saw no indication that it was a newsstand, is there any difference anymore? And did Marvel stop newsstand distribution completely?

 

There has never been any indication that a book was produced for the newsstand. Newsstand books simply have bar codes.

[HarrisonJohn]

I was looking at DC newsstand and I saw no indication that it was a newsstand, is there any difference anymore? And did Marvel stop newsstand distribution completely?

 

There has never been any indication that a book was produced for the newsstand. Newsstand books simply have bar codes.

 

Marvel was listing direct or newsstand next to the bar code last I noticed. All books have had barcodes since the late 90's I think.

 

 

Edit; looks like the newsstand version of this book didn't say anything so it was just direct that was noted.

Edited March 22, 2014 by HarrisonJohn