Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[Spider-Dan]

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

 

To be fair you never had the book in hand.

 

While that crease is ugly, that certainly doesn't make a 7.0 totally impossible. The inside is nearly perfect, and the back cover is really nice. If grading was based solely how the cover looks, then I would agree with you

 

It's a 6.5 Universal IMO

[VintageComics]

 

I ran several trimming experiments on some junky silver and bronze age books I had. Trimming with a few different tools/techniques, after trimming using a few different types of lighting. etc.

I consider myself having studied trimming somewhat, and I admit to not being able to detect trimming in many cases.

 

There is no better teacher than experience. At this point who has the experience say that they've graded 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 comics?

 

At this point there is likely no organization that will be able to do it as efficiently as a well established certification company.

 

As an interesting side note, I've been told that Stephen Fishler of Metropolis is the best resto detection dealer in the business bar none (by some very credible sources). How many people have a reputation like that.

 

 

 

 

[jbud73]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

Chris, by the way hope all is well in T.O

 

I don't think things will occur in those absolutes, though I agree that those are options. The third factor is cost and, or money. Let's assume that CGC is not able to detect micro trimming to the same degree as non-dis assembly pressing - that is a very shocking idea, but again we don't know how many books CGC is missing (I'm hopeful that number is lower, but this recent incident probably demonstrates that it is higher than the general collecting public believes).

 

I think cessation of the certification of comic books would probably take even more than that. However, the resulting problem would largely be fought in the marketplace. Your two options, and they are two good ones play out something like this. A) Indifference. We've seen it before (sm. bit of glue to GA, NDP etc) during the latter argument people scoffed at trimming, no way that was the Rubicon - pressing not resto, trimming is in another stratosphere. Is it now years later? I don't know, but I could see indifference. Of all the posts in this thread the most disturbing is Mike's (Dr. Banner) who compares the road coins have taken to the road comics are now on. I hope Mike is wrong, but where money is involved I NEVER underestimate human nature's ability to corrupt. Are we being prepped for micro trimming acceptance? I am NOT a religious person, but pray to the comic gods that is not the case.

 

B) Stop using CGC. The domino's need to fall here in a pretty clean line. Trimming erodes market confidence ... customers are paying less for slabbed books .... dealers are slabbing less books. There are a bunch of variables along the way, but for consumer confidence to put CGC on the street that is what is going to need to happen.

 

I've always viewed this aspect (people looking for ways to restore books and retain Blue labels) kind of like hacking into the Matrix. People are always looking for doorways, and CGC is constantly trying to eliminate their techniques - or tell us, "there is no spoon" when things go awry. As I said earlier, I hope they exercise due diligence and use this as a quality control tool to make their product more consistent. I support and always have supported certification, BUT not to the extreme of Indifference.

Edited April 4, 2014 by jbud73

[VintageComics]

Who knows? Since 99.9% of collectors can't detect trimming.....it's possible CGC misses 99.9% of the micro-trimming. How could we ever know for sure?

 

And what does a unicorn fart smell like?

[jbud73]

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

Your car sucks.

 

 

Ouch, well I actually think its the best vehicle I have ever bought. Only problem is the Stealerships and what they want to charge you for maintenance and service. Luckily there is a BMW Master Mechanic that has an Indy shop in Monterey, that has increase the ownership experience tenfold.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Who knows? Since 99.9% of collectors can't detect trimming.....it's possible CGC misses 99.9% of the micro-trimming. How could we ever know for sure?

 

And what does a unicorn fart smell like?

 

Unicorns don't fart.

[VintageComics]

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

Your car sucks.

 

 

Ouch, well I actually think its the best vehicle I have ever bought. Only problem is the Stealerships and what they want to charge you for maintenance and service. Luckily there is a BMW Master Mechanic that has an Indy shop in Monterey, that has increase the ownership experience tenfold.

 

I'm just teasing although I was a Benz guy for over a decade.

 

Finding a good, honest tech is the best thing you can do if you like cars. It makes all the difference.

[jbud73]

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded.

 

For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did.

 

Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like.

 

 

 

 

This.

 

Thanks FT. Not sure what is going on but for a while now 95% of my posts are not replied to. I appreciate it.

 

I read your post Michael and as always appreciate your insight, sad that the only school forumites only come out of the wood work for the disaster thread - I'm guilty as charged on that one.

[techtre2003]

You also have to think of all the comics CGC has helped save by being established. People are less likely to restore a comic these days and are satisfied with a lower grade book if all original. How would you like 50-75 percent of comics to be restored today or atleast 25 percent if CGC didnt exist.

 

I'm not suggesting CGC hasn't done good things for the hobby, I'm merely suggesting that their detection efforts are lacking.

 

Everyone's detection efforts are lacking when compared to a perfect, 100% average.

 

The question is how does CGC stack up to everyone that is not CGC?

 

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

Again, I don't use their service, but if I did I would want it to be because I had full confidence in them; not because that's the only choice I have. Like I said before, everyone's tolerance for error will vary (thumbs u

[THE_BEYONDER]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

Chris, by the way hope all is well in T.O

 

I don't think things will occur in those absolutes, though I agree that those are options. The third factor is cost and, or money. Let's assume that CGC is not able to detect micro trimming to the same degree as non-dis assembly pressing - that is a very shocking idea, but again we don't know how many books CGC is missing (I'm hopeful that number is lower, but this recent incident probably demonstrates that it is higher than the general collecting public believes).

 

I think cessation of the certification of comic books would probably take even more than that. However, the resulting problem would largely be fought in the marketplace. Your two options, and they are two good ones play out something like this. A) Indifference. We've seen it before (sm. bit of glue to GA, NDP etc) during the latter argument people scoffed at trimming, no way that was the Rubicon - pressing not resto, trimming is in another stratosphere. Is it now years later? I don't know, but I could see indifference. Of all the posts in this thread the most disturbing is Mike's (Dr. Banner) who compares the road coins have taken to the road comics are now on. I hope Mike is wrong, but where money is involved I NEVER underestimate human nature's ability to corrupt. Are we being prepped for micro trimming acceptance? I am NOT a religious person, but pray to the comic gods that is not the case.

 

B) Stop using CGC. The domino's need to fall here in a pretty clean line. Trimming erodes market confidence ... customers are paying less for slabbed books .... dealers are slabbing less books. There are a bunch of variables along the way, but for consumer confidence to put CGC on the street that is what is going to need to happen.

 

I've always viewed this aspect (people looking for ways to restore books and retain Blue labels) kind of like hacking into the Matrix. People are always looking for doorways, and CGC is constantly trying to eliminate their techniques - or tell us, "there is no spoon" when things go awry. As I said earlier, I hope they exercise due diligence and use this as a quality control tool to make their product more consistent. I support and always have supported certification, BUT not to the extreme of Indifference.

 

If only I could articulate my thoughts the way you can.

 

 

Miss your posts Jason.

 

 

[jbud73]

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

Your car sucks.

 

 

Ouch, well I actually think its the best vehicle I have ever bought. Only problem is the Stealerships and what they want to charge you for maintenance and service. Luckily there is a BMW Master Mechanic that has an Indy shop in Monterey, that has increase the ownership experience tenfold.

 

I'm just teasing although I was a Benz guy for over a decade.

 

Finding a good, honest tech is the best thing you can do if you like cars. It makes all the difference.

 

No argument from me on that one. (thumbs u

[techtre2003]

 

I ran several trimming experiments on some junky silver and bronze age books I had. Trimming with a few different tools/techniques, after trimming using a few different types of lighting. etc.

I consider myself having studied trimming somewhat, and I admit to not being able to detect trimming in many cases.

 

There is no better teacher than experience. At this point who has the experience say that they've graded 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 comics?

 

At this point there is likely no organization that will be able to do it as efficiently as a well established certification company.

 

As an interesting side note, I've been told that Stephen Fishler of Metropolis is the best resto detection dealer in the business bar none (by some very credible sources). How many people have a reputation like that.

 

 

 

Sounds like CGC needs to sub some work out to this guy!

[VintageComics]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

[LordRahl]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

[techtre2003]

Who knows? Since 99.9% of collectors can't detect trimming.....it's possible CGC misses 99.9% of the micro-trimming. How could we ever know for sure?

 

And what does a unicorn fart smell like?

 

Unicorns don't fart.

 

I have a pretty reputable source that assures me unicorns do in fact fart rainbows.

[LordRahl]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

Chris, by the way hope all is well in T.O

 

I don't think things will occur in those absolutes, though I agree that those are options. The third factor is cost and, or money. Let's assume that CGC is not able to detect micro trimming to the same degree as non-dis assembly pressing - that is a very shocking idea, but again we don't know how many books CGC is missing (I'm hopeful that number is lower, but this recent incident probably demonstrates that it is higher than the general collecting public believes).

 

I think cessation of the certification of comic books would probably take even more than that. However, the resulting problem would largely be fought in the marketplace. Your two options, and they are two good ones play out something like this. A) Indifference. We've seen it before (sm. bit of glue to GA, NDP etc) during the latter argument people scoffed at trimming, no way that was the Rubicon - pressing not resto, trimming is in another stratosphere. Is it now years later? I don't know, but I could see indifference. Of all the posts in this thread the most disturbing is Mike's (Dr. Banner) who compares the road coins have taken to the road comics are now on. I hope Mike is wrong, but where money is involved I NEVER underestimate human nature's ability to corrupt. Are we being prepped for micro trimming acceptance? I am NOT a religious person, but pray to the comic gods that is not the case.

 

B) Stop using CGC. The domino's need to fall here in a pretty clean line. Trimming erodes market confidence ... customers are paying less for slabbed books .... dealers are slabbing less books. There are a bunch of variables along the way, but for consumer confidence to put CGC on the street that is what is going to need to happen.

 

I've always viewed this aspect (people looking for ways to restore books and retain Blue labels) kind of like hacking into the Matrix. People are always looking for doorways, and CGC is constantly trying to eliminate their techniques - or tell us, "there is no spoon" when things go awry. As I said earlier, I hope they exercise due diligence and use this as a quality control tool to make their product more consistent. I support and always have supported certification, BUT not to the extreme of Indifference.

 

For what it's worth I don't think indifference to micro-trimming will happen. Trimming is too ingrained in the collecting public as a bad thing (whether you think it's destruction or restoration) for this to happen. Pressing wasn't.

[VintageComics]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

 

 

This sounds like a question for kav!

 

[LordRahl]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

 

 

This sounds like a question for kav!

 

 

On a side note.... I'd like to hear what Zaid has to say about this particular incident. I don't see him post much anymore.

[kav]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

 

 

This sounds like a question for kav!

 

Post it on my thread, and I'll answer it.

[techtre2003]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

agreed. I'll rely on myself since in all actuality I really don't give a hoot if my book is micro trimmed.