Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[jbud73]

So what do I seek to add I think the idea of consistency.

 

I accept that CGC is not perfect, humans are fallible and grading is subjective. I think you have to accept those statements as fact if you want to collect certified comic books. I tend to argue that collectors do NOT factor in those statements enough when they are buying certified books and I'm thankful that they don't when I sell them.

 

Still consistency, that is what it comes back to for me and that was the topic of more than a few of the discussions I had with very experienced collectors and dealers, with hundreds, thousands - combined maybe even hundreds of thousands of submissions when this topic arose over the weekend.

 

The general consensus and true this maybe skewed by that fact that this combination of people knew A LOT of the "issues" CGC has been having over the past few years - all accepted that Trimming was probably the toughest defect to consistently detect. But all of that said, there were some serious, well reasoned, calm, professionally stated "concerns" about CGC's consistency and their dealings with issues such as the recent "Spider-Dan Gate" situation. As one collector said to me, 'if CGC can't consistently detect trimming, that definitely devalues their product to me.'

 

IMO a measure of a company is what it does, not when things are all systems go and ideal - the company should be judged with how it deals with adversity externally AND internally. The kindest way I can put this is that CGC has some work to do on both accounts. Will they do it? Hard to say. I know Paul and Sean and some others there, but I'm not sure who institutes planning and policy for CGC's internal structure and associated functions. It looks like Harshen has the ball on external policy for these situations, or is at least he is the front person. I hope all collectors, even the harshest CGC critics, and I have been harsh on them from time to time, understand that it is in the best interest of the Hobby that 'certification' exists. However, what I hope CGC realizes as a purveyor of certification is that consistency is the single most important characteristic in their business methodology. I think they do realize that, the crux is how important is that realization, in terms of effort required here and their willingness to, through action, legitimately maintain it.

 

The thing that swirls around in my head is, is the JIM actually trimmed? Those people that said destroy the book what is needed is a final determination, and the resulting examination of where CGC made missteps. I really hope they exercise legitimate due diligence on this one for the overall good of certification in the hobby.

 

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

You should post more often. (thumbs u

 

When the update was posted regarding the book going back to blue, and the backlash was getting amped up, and people were asking what CGC was going to do, etc... I thought about when the Ewert stuff first went down. I remember a post that you made about crisis management and damage control. It was in response to CGC creating the advisory board (anyone remember that?) made up of customers (including board members).

 

Hey thanks Chrisco, its old home week in this thread. I used to post a lot more in CG, but an interesting thing happened over the last 10+ years on the CGC boards - a lot of these people became my friends. I mean I was invited to jeffreykli and FFB's weddings and goldust, Pov, Steve B., greggy, joey, tth2, garth, david, rhino (steve) (oh man I dont want to miss anyone ) have actually sat down and had dinner on many occasions. Have to admit I enjoy those discussions a lot and tend not to post in CG much and If I hadn't have been at the Con having dinner / drinks with a lot of the forumites mentioned I may have never known about this thread.

 

I encourage ANYONE to go back and read the Ewert thread, there are more than a few but a couple of the big ones. If you are spending your money on slabs, you should know as much as possible about what you are potentially getting.

 

Also want to call out Steve Borock's post, but besides Dr. banner's post which caused me to think bad thoughts, Steve's post reminded me of the pre-CGC days and all the shenanigans that went on. Certification did cull a lot of the techniques. (back in the day I would only spend $100 on a comic book, when I had it which was rare, with 2 dealers"Doug Sulipa and Jim Payette" for fear of god knows what going on with the books) The rub is books are more expensive now, achieve more multiples of guide in HG, so IMO certification needs to be held to an increased standard congruent, or in the ball park to, the increased dollars that these items are costing.

 

[techtre2003]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

 

 

This sounds like a question for kav!

 

Post it on my thread, and I'll answer it.

 

I thought you only showed up when someone said your name 3 times!

[manetteska]

There are art forgers who make millions off of fakes that get by the art experts. There are decades-long debates between experts as to whether a painting is fake or not. They introduce various levels of microscopy, go back through provenance paperwork, conduct interviews, etc. And still they are at odds.

 

And yet the art world continues to function, selling high value pieces that may or may not be real. They experts do their best and what you - the buyer - are left with are their opinions.

 

If a 100% effective method of detecting restoration and/or forgery does not exist, you cannot blame a company when they are not 100% correct. This is not a pro- or anti- CGC statement; it is a general statement for any company and/or person that "detects" restoration.

[techtre2003]

There are art forgers who make millions off of fakes that get by the art experts. There are decades-long debates between experts as to whether a painting is fake or not. They introduce various levels of microscopy, go back through provenance paperwork, conduct interviews, etc. And still they are at odds.

 

And yet the art world continues to function, selling high value pieces that may or may not be real. They experts do their best and what you - the buyer - are left with are their opinions.

 

If a 100% effective method of detecting restoration and/or forgery does not exist, you cannot blame a company when they are not 100% correct. This is not a pro- or anti- CGC statement; it is a general statement for any company and/or person that "detects" restoration.

 

there's a big difference between original art and mass produced comics though.

[techtre2003]

So what do I seek to add I think the idea of consistency.

 

I accept that CGC is not perfect, humans are fallible and grading is subjective. I think you have to accept those statements as fact if you want to collect certified comic books. I tend to argue that collectors do NOT factor in those statements enough when they are buying certified books and I'm thankful that they don't when I sell them.

 

Still consistency, that is what it comes back to for me and that was the topic of more than a few of the discussions I had with very experienced collectors and dealers, with hundreds, thousands - combined maybe even hundreds of thousands of submissions when this topic arose over the weekend.

 

The general consensus and true this maybe skewed by that fact that this combination of people knew A LOT of the "issues" CGC has been having over the past few years - all accepted that Trimming was probably the toughest defect to consistently detect. But all of that said, there were some serious, well reasoned, calm, professionally stated "concerns" about CGC's consistency and their dealings with issues such as the recent "Spider-Dan Gate" situation. As one collector said to me, 'if CGC can't consistently detect trimming, that definitely devalues their product to me.'

 

IMO a measure of a company is what it does, not when things are all systems go and ideal - the company should be judged with how it deals with adversity externally AND internally. The kindest way I can put this is that CGC has some work to do on both accounts. Will they do it? Hard to say. I know Paul and Sean and some others there, but I'm not sure who institutes planning and policy for CGC's internal structure and associated functions. It looks like Harshen has the ball on external policy for these situations, or is at least he is the front person. I hope all collectors, even the harshest CGC critics, and I have been harsh on them from time to time, understand that it is in the best interest of the Hobby that 'certification' exists. However, what I hope CGC realizes as a purveyor of certification is that consistency is the single most important characteristic in their business methodology. I think they do realize that, the crux is how important is that realization, in terms of effort required here and their willingness to, through action, legitimately maintain it.

 

The thing that swirls around in my head is, is the JIM actually trimmed? Those people that said destroy the book what is needed is a final determination, and the resulting examination of where CGC made missteps. I really hope they exercise legitimate due diligence on this one for the overall good of certification in the hobby.

 

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

You should post more often. (thumbs u

 

When the update was posted regarding the book going back to blue, and the backlash was getting amped up, and people were asking what CGC was going to do, etc... I thought about when the Ewert stuff first went down. I remember a post that you made about crisis management and damage control. It was in response to CGC creating the advisory board (anyone remember that?) made up of customers (including board members).

 

Hey thanks Chrisco, its old home week in this thread. I used to post a lot more in CG, but an interesting thing happened over the last 10+ years on the CGC boards - a lot of these people became my friends. I mean I was invited to jeffreykli and FFB's weddings and goldust, Pov, Steve B., greggy, joey, tth2, garth, david, rhino (steve) (oh man I dont want to miss anyone ) have actually sat down and had dinner on many occasions. Have to admit I enjoy those discussions a lot and tend not to post in CG much and If I hadn't have been at the Con having dinner / drinks with a lot of the forumites mentioned I may have never known about this thread.

 

I encourage ANYONE to go back and read the Ewert thread, there are more than a few but a couple of the big ones. If you are spending your money on slabs, you should know as much as possible about what you are potentially getting.

 

Also want to call out Steve Borock's post, but besides Dr. banner's post which caused me to think bad thoughts, Steve's post reminded me of the pre-CGC days and all the shenanigans that went on. Certification did cull a lot of the techniques. (back in the day I would only spend $100 on a comic book, when I had it which was rare, with 2 dealers"Doug Sulipa and Jim Payette" for fear of god knows what going on with the books) The rub is books are more expensive now, achieve more multiples of guide in HG, so IMO certification needs to be held to an increased standard congruent, or in the ball park to, the increased dollars that these items are costing.

 

to the whole post but especially to the bolded part concerning this thread.

[VintageComics]

The rub is books are more expensive now, achieve more multiples of guide in HG, so IMO certification needs to be held to an increased standard congruent, or in the ball park to, the increased dollars that these items are costing.

 

to the whole post but especially to the bolded part concerning this thread.

 

I'll agree to that. As the market and the black market evolves, certification needs to evolve in providing confidence.

 

 

[MetalPSI]

and of course, just an general FYI ....

 

Google unicorn farts at your own peril

[awakeintheashes]

You also have to think of all the comics CGC has helped save by being established. People are less likely to restore a comic these days and are satisfied with a lower grade book if all original. How would you like 50-75 percent of comics to be restored today or atleast 25 percent if CGC didnt exist.

 

I'm not suggesting CGC hasn't done good things for the hobby, I'm merely suggesting that their detection efforts are lacking.

 

Everyone's detection efforts are lacking when compared to a perfect, 100% average.

 

The question is how does CGC stack up to everyone that is not CGC?

 

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

Again, I don't use their service, but if I did I would want it to be because I had full confidence in them; not because that's the only choice I have. Like I said before, everyone's tolerance for error will vary (thumbs u

 

Oh really? http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/comicbookjunkie/504340-east-west-1-hickman-auto-signature-series-grading-order.html

[chrisco37]

and of course, just an general FYI ....

 

Google unicorn farts at your own peril

 

Lip Balm! WTF?

[skypinkblu]

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

 

To be fair you never had the book in hand.

 

While that crease is ugly, that certainly doesn't make a 7.0 totally impossible. The inside is nearly perfect, and the back cover is really nice. If grading was based solely how the cover looks, then I would agree with you

 

It's a 6.5 Universal IMO

 

No, but I did see some scans that were taken prior to you receiving it. Not the photos you had on the sales thread.

 

It's interesting that you say it's a 6.5, CGC graded it 3 times and never came up with that number.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

 

To be fair you never had the book in hand.

 

While that crease is ugly, that certainly doesn't make a 7.0 totally impossible. The inside is nearly perfect, and the back cover is really nice. If grading was based solely how the cover looks, then I would agree with you

 

It's a 6.5 Universal IMO

 

No, but I did see some scans that were taken prior to you receiving it. Not the photos you had on the sales thread.

 

It's interesting that you say it's a 6.5, CGC graded it 3 times and never came up with that number.

 

 

 

I feel like I should get a pair of 3-D glasses to read this.....

 

[skypinkblu]

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

 

To be fair you never had the book in hand.

 

While that crease is ugly, that certainly doesn't make a 7.0 totally impossible. The inside is nearly perfect, and the back cover is really nice. If grading was based solely how the cover looks, then I would agree with you

 

It's a 6.5 Universal IMO

 

No, but I did see some scans that were taken prior to you receiving it. Not the photos you had on the sales thread.

 

It's interesting that you say it's a 6.5, CGC graded it 3 times and never came up with that number.

 

 

 

I feel like I should get a pair of 3-D glasses to read this.....

 

Keeps me from getting bored...doesn't keep me from being boring;)

 

I would have changed the color but you quoted it, I didn't mean to raise my voice,

[kav]

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

 

 

This sounds like a question for kav!

 

Post it on my thread, and I'll answer it.

 

I thought you only showed up when someone said your name 3 times!

Beetlejuice...BEETLEJUICE...

[kav]

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

 

To be fair you never had the book in hand.

 

While that crease is ugly, that certainly doesn't make a 7.0 totally impossible. The inside is nearly perfect, and the back cover is really nice. If grading was based solely how the cover looks, then I would agree with you

 

It's a 6.5 Universal IMO

 

No, but I did see some scans that were taken prior to you receiving it. Not the photos you had on the sales thread.

 

It's interesting that you say it's a 6.5, CGC graded it 3 times and never came up with that number.

 

 

 

I feel like I should get a pair of 3-D glasses to read this.....

 

Keeps me from getting bored...doesn't keep me from being boring;)

 

I would have changed the color but you quoted it, I didn't mean to raise my voice,

\]

I went to a 3D movie but one of the lenses fell out so I had to watch it in like 1 1/2 D.

[incoflip]

Spider-dan

I'll ask for the forth time. Did CGC Miss the --

 

Plitch

You want answers?

 

Spider-dan

I think I'm entitled to them.

 

Plitch

You want answers?!

 

Spider-dan

I want the truth.

 

Plitch

You can't handle the truth!

(continuing)

Son, we live in a world that has comics. And those comics have to be graded by men with skills. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Ares? I have a greater responsibility than You can possibly fathom. You weep for Jim 83 and you curse our skills. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That making rare errors, while tragic, probably saved the book from PGX.

 

And a mistake, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved a collection.

(beat)

You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at conventions and forum, you want us there at CGC. You need us there.

(boasting)

We use words like Trim, color Touch, Restoration... we use these words as the backbone to a life spent grading books. You use 'em as a punchline.

(beat)

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very grading I provide, then questions the manner in which we provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a UV light & grade a book. Either way, don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.

 

Spider-dan

Did CGC make a mistake on the trim?

 

Plitch

(beat)

We did the job we were hired to do.

 

Spider-dan

Did CGC make a mistake on the trim?

 

Plitch

You're right we did.

 

Silence. From everyone. Ares, comicWiz, the Peanut Gallery

they're all frozen. CGCmod0 and AlexH are likewise. Spider-Dan seems strangely, Quietly relieved. Ares simply takes control of the room now.

 

Ares

Please the court, I suggest the Kangaroo Court be dismissed so that we can move to an immediate Article 39a Session. CGC has rights

 

Although I'm not completely finished reading this thread (112 pages into the 181 or so) I wanted to comment that this ....this is some funny stuff right here !!! I don't care who you are, you have to admit... this was good !!!

[manetteska]

There are art forgers who make millions off of fakes that get by the art experts. There are decades-long debates between experts as to whether a painting is fake or not. They introduce various levels of microscopy, go back through provenance paperwork, conduct interviews, etc. And still they are at odds.

 

And yet the art world continues to function, selling high value pieces that may or may not be real. They experts do their best and what you - the buyer - are left with are their opinions.

 

If a 100% effective method of detecting restoration and/or forgery does not exist, you cannot blame a company when they are not 100% correct. This is not a pro- or anti- CGC statement; it is a general statement for any company and/or person that "detects" restoration.

 

there's a big difference between original art and mass produced comics though.

 

No doubt; one can spin off on many different tangents here, but in terms of "detecting restoration", the analogy is rather accurate.

[techtre2003]

You also have to think of all the comics CGC has helped save by being established. People are less likely to restore a comic these days and are satisfied with a lower grade book if all original. How would you like 50-75 percent of comics to be restored today or atleast 25 percent if CGC didnt exist.

 

I'm not suggesting CGC hasn't done good things for the hobby, I'm merely suggesting that their detection efforts are lacking.

 

Everyone's detection efforts are lacking when compared to a perfect, 100% average.

 

The question is how does CGC stack up to everyone that is not CGC?

 

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

Again, I don't use their service, but if I did I would want it to be because I had full confidence in them; not because that's the only choice I have. Like I said before, everyone's tolerance for error will vary (thumbs u

 

Oh really? http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/comicbookjunkie/504340-east-west-1-hickman-auto-signature-series-grading-order.html

 

Technically, I wasn't using their service, Indy was I've also posted in this thread that I did in fact have one book subbed to CGC myself (which was actually done by another BO member). You want full disclosure? I have had in my hands a grand total of 7 CGC graded books and 2 still in holders in my collection:

 

1. My first CGC book was from Graham Crackers. They were liquidating some Wizard con book for around $10 for a CGC 9.8 and I was curious as to what a CGC book looked like. Still have it.

2. Was the book you posted here. I've actually tried to sell that book both here and at BO since it really doesn't fit into my collection but would probably have to take 1/2 what I paid. Still have it.

3. A PLOD New Mutants 98 I got here from a boardie and immediately cracked out

4. A PLOD midgrade ASM in the low 100's I got from the PIF here and cracked out

5. Another PLOD midgrade ASM in the low 100s I got here from the PIF and cracked out

6. The one book I bought raw and subbed myself (through a BO member). An Avengers 55 that I bought to resell because I got a killer deal on it. Took the profits and paid a couple bills and bought a raw ASM 6 from the LCS I got the Avengers from. That is the gem of my collection

7. My LCS owner who does about as much CGC business as me showed me his Daredevil #1 he sent in to get graded.

 

That's it.

P.S. Come on man, a fellow BO member baiting me? Just kidding, it's all good!

[techtre2003]

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

 

To be fair you never had the book in hand.

 

While that crease is ugly, that certainly doesn't make a 7.0 totally impossible. The inside is nearly perfect, and the back cover is really nice. If grading was based solely how the cover looks, then I would agree with you

 

It's a 6.5 Universal IMO

 

No, but I did see some scans that were taken prior to you receiving it. Not the photos you had on the sales thread.

 

It's interesting that you say it's a 6.5, CGC graded it 3 times and never came up with that number.

 

6+7+6=19 19/3=6.33333333333 but since 6.3333333333 isn't a grade he said 6.5

[techtre2003]

 

There are art forgers who make millions off of fakes that get by the art experts. There are decades-long debates between experts as to whether a painting is fake or not. They introduce various levels of microscopy, go back through provenance paperwork, conduct interviews, etc. And still they are at odds.

 

And yet the art world continues to function, selling high value pieces that may or may not be real. They experts do their best and what you - the buyer - are left with are their opinions.

 

If a 100% effective method of detecting restoration and/or forgery does not exist, you cannot blame a company when they are not 100% correct. This is not a pro- or anti- CGC statement; it is a general statement for any company and/or person that "detects" restoration.

 

there's a big difference between original art and mass produced comics though.

 

No doubt; one can spin off on many different tangents here, but in terms of "detecting restoration", the analogy is rather accurate.

 

I was just thinking in the case of a good art forgery, one could reproduce the piece using the same materials as the original. As for comics, very few people are going to take the time to put together the press, plates, inks, etc... it would take to press a comic. That was just my train of thought after a few evening beers though so keep that in mind.

[ParamagicFF]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/04/04/when-a-cgcd-comic-goes-from-unrestores-to-restored-and-back-again/

 

Although I'm sure all interested parties have probably heard about this story by now. Bleeding Cool wanted to make sure too.