1st Wolverine art @ $140K with 22 days to go!! 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

Huh. Interesting! I didn't know that owning something made one knowledgeable about it.

 

It doesn't, in and of itself. But, when you're as active in the hobby as I am, particularly this segment of the market, I can speak from a position of experience and authority. What are your OA credentials, sir?

 

"Active in the hobby", which I assume you mean paying close attention to the market, is of much greater value than "I buy a lot, so I know what I'm talking about."

 

Nice to see you revise.

 

Thanks for proving my point. It's not more valuable even though it was the first appearance, because the #168 cover is the image that everyone remembers,

 

It is not "the first appearance", regardless of when it appeared in print.

 

As far as most important, it had been stated that the OA to Hulk #181 was destroyed. If that is NOT the case, then I will revise my statement to the SECOND most important piece of OA, after the cover to #181.

 

See? New information, minds changed. Easy.

[delekkerste]

You know, you really can make your points without telling others they have no idea what they're talking about.

 

How about I go through our Wolverine discussion and point out the many, many, many mistakes you made during the course of the conversation...?

 

I didn't, because it didn't advance the conversation, but I could have. You made comments that were factually, demonstrably, provably wrong, multiple times, and on the few points you were corrected, you weren't told that you had no idea what you were talking about.

 

The whole "you had to be there, or you couldn't possibly know" was one of the most glaring.

 

 

If the page sells for a million, that doesn't prove me right. If it sells for $300K, it doesn't prove *you* right. You keep arguing subjectives as fact.

 

I guess that's one way to look at it. Thankfully rational people who read that Wolverine thread could see how wrong you were and expressed their collective opinion as much to that effect. People could see that your arguments never actually proved the points you were trying to make, and that you were just plain wrong and refused to admit it. Virtually all of the data, polls and recollections supported my point of view, and even your sole ally in the thread ended up trying to unsuccessfully reframe the debate after you and he were comprehensively proven wrong.

 

I don't usually tell people they don't know what they're talking about, but, then again, people usually don't opine authoritatively on things they know little about as much as you do and refuse to back down even when informed people tell you you're wrong.

[delekkerste]

"Active in the hobby", which I assume you mean paying close attention to the market, is of much greater value than "I buy a lot, so I know what I'm talking about."

 

Nice to see you revise.

 

Not revising at all - I thought that was implied in what I said. Guess I should have remembered how pedantic you can be.

 

 

As far as most important, it had been stated that the OA to Hulk #181 was destroyed. If that is NOT the case, then I will revise my statement to the SECOND most important piece of OA, after the cover to #181.

 

See? New information, minds changed. Easy.

 

Wow, that's a first. You consistently ignored new information in the Wolverine thread and kept going back to arguments that were comprehensively proven wrong.

 

In any case, the Hulk #181 OA was not destroyed, and the cover was never part of Len Wein's collection caught in his house fire. And, again, there are other pieces that are more important than the Hulk #180 page, such as the GSXM 1 cover.

[JesterSB]

I'm not sure anyone is saying that the cover of Hulk 181 wouldn't go for more than this. That doesn't mean this won't sell for > $1M though. My guess is it will be > $750K with a chance at $1M...it's significance should not be understated. If I had unlimited funds, the order of Wolverine OA I would want would be the IH181 cover, then probably this page. The cover of GSXM1 (and likely X-men 94) would probably be worth more, but that has as much to do with Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Storm as it does with Wolverine.

 

No one is denying that this is the first appearance of Wolverine and that it is significant. However, it is not the famous, iconic image that the Hulk #181 cover is, which is why the #181 cover is more significant, even if it is the second appearance of the character.

 

There are people, like myself, who know the OA landscape, know who the usual suspects are for this piece, and what they are likely to pay and not pay, both for the #180 page and the #181 cover should it surface. I'm not saying that $750K-$1mm is impossible, but it would be a total guess/leap of faith and certainly not based on any facts, logic, comps, or any other kind of information that dialed-in collectors have at their disposal.

 

I'm certainly no expert, but I don't really believe anyone is in this case since it is an unprecedented sale. I am basing this on my belief that Wolverine is the 4th most popular character in comics (way above #5 whoever that may be), and the other 3 did not have a cameo before their first appearance, so how can you judge where this sale will go? Comparing Wolverine to any of the examples you have given is IMO a joke. Like I said originally, the figures I gave are a guess, just like yours.

[Rip]

What are your OA credentials, sir?

"Well what have you got, sonny boy?"

 

Action Comics OA rulz!

 

Lots of great topics in this thread wish I wasn't so bogged down with work.

 

I guess I'll make it short right now.

 

I don't think the piece is a million dollar piece, but OA is tougher to pin down sometimes. I would guess somewhere between 300K and 600K.

 

When I find out who buys these high end pieces, it often makes me think how small the collecting world can be.

 

[delekkerste]

I'm certainly no expert, but I don't really believe anyone is in this case since it is an unprecedented sale. I am basing this on my belief that Wolverine is the 4th most popular character in comics (way above #5 whoever that may be), and the other 3 did not have a cameo before their first appearance, so how can you judge where this sale will go? Comparing Wolverine to any of the examples you have given is IMO a joke. Like I said originally, the figures I gave are a guess, just like yours.

 

First appearances, cameos, etc. are the providence of the comic collector. It is only one aspect of the value of original art. My figures may be a guess, but they're an educated guess. Do you know who the likely potential buyers are for this page? Have you spoken to them and have an idea of what their intentions may or may not be? I have.

[RockMyAmadeus]

You know, you really can make your points without telling others they have no idea what they're talking about.

 

How about I go through our Wolverine discussion and point out the many, many, many mistakes you made during the course of the conversation...?

 

I didn't, because it didn't advance the conversation, but I could have. You made comments that were factually, demonstrably, provably wrong, multiple times, and on the few points you were corrected, you weren't told that you had no idea what you were talking about.

 

The whole "you had to be there, or you couldn't possibly know" was one of the most glaring.

 

 

If the page sells for a million, that doesn't prove me right. If it sells for $300K, it doesn't prove *you* right. You keep arguing subjectives as fact.

 

I guess that's one way to look at it. Thankfully rational people who read that Wolverine thread could see how wrong you were and expressed their collective opinion as much to that effect. People could see that your arguments never actually proved the points you were trying to make, and that you were just plain wrong and refused to admit it. Virtually all of the data, polls and recollections supported my point of view, and even your sole ally in the thread ended up trying to unsuccessfully reframe the debate after you and he were comprehensively proven wrong.

 

I don't usually tell people they don't know what they're talking about, but, then again, people usually don't opine authoritatively on things they know little about as much as you do and refuse to back down even when informed people tell you you're wrong.

 

Really? Do you really want me to go down the list of things you got factually, demonstrably, provably wrong? You argued points that were not in contention, you misstated multiple points, you misread people's statements (either willfully or negligently, I don't know what's worse), you got all sorts of relevant data just flat out wrong.

 

And do you REALLY want to make the claim that I don't "back down" when YOU were the one who kept going, and going, and going, making hostile, dismissive, condescending statements long after I ceased talking to you about it?

 

No, I think everyone saw what happened there. I think everyone saw what happened there quite clearly. You can believe whatever you wish, but if you can't even get your facts straight, and in the process make incredibly specious and arrogant statements like "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened", despite the example of...you know...ALL OF RECORDED HISTORY....I think it's quite clear to everyone what happened.

 

 

PS. "Consensus of opinion" does not a fact make. A fact is a fact. It either IS or it is NOT. It doesn't matter how many people "agree" with you.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm not sure anyone is saying that the cover of Hulk 181 wouldn't go for more than this. That doesn't mean this won't sell for > $1M though. My guess is it will be > $750K with a chance at $1M...it's significance should not be understated. If I had unlimited funds, the order of Wolverine OA I would want would be the IH181 cover, then probably this page. The cover of GSXM1 (and likely X-men 94) would probably be worth more, but that has as much to do with Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Storm as it does with Wolverine.

 

No one is denying that this is the first appearance of Wolverine and that it is significant. However, it is not the famous, iconic image that the Hulk #181 cover is, which is why the #181 cover is more significant, even if it is the second appearance of the character.

 

There are people, like myself, who know the OA landscape, know who the usual suspects are for this piece, and what they are likely to pay and not pay, both for the #180 page and the #181 cover should it surface. I'm not saying that $750K-$1mm is impossible, but it would be a total guess/leap of faith and certainly not based on any facts, logic, comps, or any other kind of information that dialed-in collectors have at their disposal.

 

I'm certainly no expert, but I don't really believe anyone is in this case since it is an unprecedented sale. I am basing this on my belief that Wolverine is the 4th most popular character in comics (way above #5 whoever that may be), and the other 3 did not have a cameo before their first appearance, so how can you judge where this sale will go? Comparing Wolverine to any of the examples you have given is IMO a joke. Like I said originally, the figures I gave are a guess, just like yours.

 

+ forever.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"Active in the hobby", which I assume you mean paying close attention to the market, is of much greater value than "I buy a lot, so I know what I'm talking about."

 

Nice to see you revise.

 

Not revising at all - I thought that was implied in what I said. Guess I should have remembered how pedantic you can be.

 

 

As far as most important, it had been stated that the OA to Hulk #181 was destroyed. If that is NOT the case, then I will revise my statement to the SECOND most important piece of OA, after the cover to #181.

 

See? New information, minds changed. Easy.

 

Wow, that's a first. You consistently ignored new information in the Wolverine thread and kept going back to arguments that were comprehensively proven wrong.

 

In any case, the Hulk #181 OA was not destroyed, and the cover was never part of Len Wein's collection caught in his house fire. And, again, there are other pieces that are more important than the Hulk #181 cover, such as the GSXM 1 cover.

 

[delekkerste]

Really? Do you really want me to go down the list of things you got factually, demonstrably, provably wrong? You argued points that were not in contention, you misstated multiple points, you misread people's statements (either willfully or negligently, I don't know what's worse), you got all sorts of relevant date just flat out wrong.

 

And do you REALLY want to make the claim that I don't "back down" when YOU were the one who kept going, and going, and going, making hostile, dismissive, condescending statements long after I ceased talking to you about it?

 

No, I think everyone saw what happened there. I think everyone saw what happened there quite clearly. You can believe whatever you wish, but if you can't even get your facts straight, and in the process make incredibly specious and arrogant statements like "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened", despite the example of...you know...ALL OF RECORDED HISTORY....I think it's quite clear to everyone what happened.

 

 

PS. "Consensus of opinion" does not a fact make. A fact is a fact. It either IS or it is NOT. It doesn't matter how many people "agree" with you.

 

No need to rehash it - just provide links to the threads so people can see for themselves how ridiculous your arguments were. If anyone missed it, RMA said that Wolverine was not a superstar until the late '80s. Go check out the two threads on the subject for the plethora of evidence to the contrary while watching RMA pout and do his best James van der Beek impression.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Really? Do you really want me to go down the list of things you got factually, demonstrably, provably wrong? You argued points that were not in contention, you misstated multiple points, you misread people's statements (either willfully or negligently, I don't know what's worse), you got all sorts of relevant date just flat out wrong.

 

And do you REALLY want to make the claim that I don't "back down" when YOU were the one who kept going, and going, and going, making hostile, dismissive, condescending statements long after I ceased talking to you about it?

 

No, I think everyone saw what happened there. I think everyone saw what happened there quite clearly. You can believe whatever you wish, but if you can't even get your facts straight, and in the process make incredibly specious and arrogant statements like "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened", despite the example of...you know...ALL OF RECORDED HISTORY....I think it's quite clear to everyone what happened.

 

 

PS. "Consensus of opinion" does not a fact make. A fact is a fact. It either IS or it is NOT. It doesn't matter how many people "agree" with you.

 

No need to rehash it - just provide links to the threads so people can see for themselves how ridiculous your arguments were. If anyone missed it, RMA said that Wolverine was not a superstar until the late '80s. Go check out the two threads on the subject for the plethora of evidence to the contrary while watching RMA pout and do his best James van der Beek impression.

 

 

[delekkerste]

What are your OA credentials, sir?

"Well what have you got, sonny boy?"

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

What are your OA credentials, sir?

"Well what have you got, sonny boy?"

 

 

[Rip]

I didn't even get to finish that thread with yet another link.

http://marvel.wikia.com/History_of_the_X-Men_comics

"Wolverine consistently won awards as the most popular comic character, so between 1980 and 1984, at least one issue per year focused on him. In 1982, he was granted a limited series, penned by Claremont and drawn by Frank Miller, introducing the samurai element of his character."

 

 

But I thought it would be best to move past that attempted moment of revisionism.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I didn't even get to finish that thread with yet another link.

http://marvel.wikia.com/History_of_the_X-Men_comics

"Wolverine consistently won awards as the most popular comic character, so between 1980 and 1984, at least one issue per year focused on him. In 1982, he was granted a limited series, penned by Claremont and drawn by Frank Miller, introducing the samurai element of his character."

 

 

But I thought it would be best to move past that attempted moment of revisionism.

 

 

Huh.

 

A WIKI...which anyone can edit...is cited as a source.

 

 

I wonder which issue from 1980 was "focused on Wolverine." Was it 133, where he appears alone on the cover, but the story is actually about the Hellfire club, and Wolvie only really appears on 8 of the 20 story pages? Is this a "focus"?

 

Or 1981. I guess "Days of Future Past", which focused on Kitty, was really focused on Wolvie.

 

 

I guess #170, which focused on Storm, #186, or #198, which did the same, I guess those don't count.

 

Or #153, which focused on Kitty, along with the aforementioned #141-142.

 

 

What about #139, in which Kitty is the central focus of the cover?

 

Or #151. Or #168.

 

 

[delekkerste]

I didn't even get to finish that thread with yet another link.

http://marvel.wikia.com/History_of_the_X-Men_comics

"Wolverine consistently won awards as the most popular comic character, so between 1980 and 1984, at least one issue per year focused on him. In 1982, he was granted a limited series, penned by Claremont and drawn by Frank Miller, introducing the samurai element of his character."

 

 

But I thought it would be best to move past that attempted moment of revisionism.

 

When Did Wolverine Really Become Popular?

 

Most Significant X-Men

 

By all means, please take a look people. The evidence speaks for itself.

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way....the cover to What If #31 made special mention of an appearance by the Uncanny X-Men.

 

Apparently, somebody thought Wolvie needed a little help to sell the book.

 

Interesting...according to the Eagle Awards, while Wolverine was ranking among the favourite characters, he was also listed as the favourite supporting character at the same time.

 

[divad]

OMG Another RMA debacle?

[Gotham Kid]

I'm liking it

[Rip]

I didn't even get to finish that thread with yet another link.

http://marvel.wikia.com/History_of_the_X-Men_comics

"Wolverine consistently won awards as the most popular comic character, so between 1980 and 1984, at least one issue per year focused on him. In 1982, he was granted a limited series, penned by Claremont and drawn by Frank Miller, introducing the samurai element of his character."

 

 

But I thought it would be best to move past that attempted moment of revisionism.

 

 

Huh.

 

A WIKI...which anyone can edit...is cited as a source.

 

 

I wonder which issue from 1980 was "focused on Wolverine." Was it 133, where he appears alone on the cover, but the story is actually about the Hellfire club, and Wolvie only really appears on 8 of the 20 story pages? Is this a "focus"?

 

Or 1981. I guess "Days of Future Past", which focused on Kitty, was really focused on Wolvie.

 

 

I guess #170, which focused on Storm, #186, or #198, which did the same, I guess those don't count.

 

Or #153, which focused on Kitty, along with the aforementioned #141-142.

 

 

What about #139, in which Kitty is the central focus of the cover?

 

Or #151. Or #168.

 

Interesting, as an aside I note you dodged the biggest part

Wolverine consistently won awards as the most popular comic character

 

You never did address that "small point." Do you dispute this?

 

So you agree or disagree, is this fact enough?

You avoided this the whole time. And I still note the dodge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Award_%28comics%29

Edited April 24, 2014 by Rip