1st Wolverine art @ $140K with 22 days to go!! 0

[delekkerste]

i think a big factor is that the OA for hulk 181 prob does not exist

 

therefore this could be the very 1st and available Wolvie OA

 

OA for Hulk 181 ( cover and interior pages) does exist. Len Wein still has the interior pages.

 

 

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3079539&fpart=1

 

It has since come to light that the #181 story survived the fire, though likely with water and/or smoke damage. A Boardie reached out to Len Wein recently who confirmed this; apparently restoration and conservation efforts on a couple of pages were successful.

[delekkerste]

The public story behind the ASM #328 cover was all kabuki theater. If you knew the real story behind it, you'd readily acknowledge that extenuating circumstances trump any psychological price barrier that was broken. OA guys know this was a total outlier event and treat it as such.

I'd love to hear that story. Is it ever getting out?

 

The story's not getting out anytime soon (unfortunately, I am not at liberty to elaborate). But, let's just say that the public story never passed the smell test to most knowledgeable OA collectors and that proved to be the case when the real story eventually came to (partial) light.

[delekkerste]

Yeah, it really is. It is the first depiction of arguably the 4th most popular superhero in the world.

 

We'll see where it ends up.

 

It may be the first depiction, but it's not the most important one. The Hulk #181 cover and the GSXM #1 cover are both more significant. Hulk #180 may be where Wolverine first appeared, but X-Men is what made him a star (and the X-Men franchise is more popular than Wolverine alone).

 

I own the OA to the very first Gwen Stacy appearance in ASM #31, but it's not worth as much as, say, the cover to ASM #121 or 122 and probably not as much as some random Romita covers which feature her as well. I also own the OA to Red Sonja's very first panels in comics from Conan #23, but it's not worth as much as the Conan #24 cover or most of the interiors; heck, there's probably at least 1 or 2 #23 pages worth more as well. No, I'm not comparing Gwen Stacy and Red Sonja to Wolverine, but I am dispelling the myth that first appearance trumps everything else - it doesn't. This is the art world and there are numerous other factors which come into play - cover vs. splash vs. interior, content of the page, execution of the page, etc.

 

Fact is, Wolverine's second appearance on the cover of Hulk #181 is bigger, better and more significant, and probably would fetch $1 million. And, by the transitive property, if the (superior) cover is worth about a million, this page isn't.

[Hammerhead]

The 181 cover would certainly go for more (it's a cover after all).

 

I think a closer comparison would be this page or the 181 title splash. This page is, of course, the first appearance but it's a panel page. 181 is universally recognized as the more important book.

 

 

Both great pages but personally I would rather have this one.

[JesterSB]

Yeah, it really is. It is the first depiction of arguably the 4th most popular superhero in the world.

 

We'll see where it ends up.

 

It may be the first depiction, but it's not the most important one. The Hulk #181 cover and the GSXM #1 cover are both more significant. Hulk #180 may be where Wolverine first appeared, but X-Men is what made him a star (and the X-Men franchise is more popular than Wolverine alone).

 

I own the OA to the very first Gwen Stacy appearance in ASM #31, but it's not worth as much as, say, the cover to ASM #121 or 122 and probably not as much as some random Romita covers which feature her as well. I also own the OA to Red Sonja's very first panels in comics from Conan #23, but it's not worth as much as the Conan #24 cover or most of the interiors; heck, there's probably at least 1 or 2 #23 pages worth more as well. No, I'm not comparing Gwen Stacy and Red Sonja to Wolverine, but I am dispelling the myth that first appearance trumps everything else - it doesn't. This is the art world and there are numerous other factors which come into play - cover vs. splash vs. interior, content of the page, execution of the page, etc.

 

Fact is, Wolverine's second appearance on the cover of Hulk #181 is bigger, better and more significant, and probably would fetch $1 million. And, by the transitive property, if the (superior) cover is worth about a million, this page isn't.

I'm not sure anyone is saying that the cover of Hulk 181 wouldn't go for more than this. That doesn't mean this won't sell for > $1M though. My guess is it will be > $750K with a chance at $1M...it's significance should not be understated. If I had unlimited funds, the order of Wolverine OA I would want would be the IH181 cover, then probably this page. The cover of GSXM1 (and likely X-men 94) would probably be worth more, but that has as much to do with Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Storm as it does with Wolverine.

[delekkerste]

I'm not sure anyone is saying that the cover of Hulk 181 wouldn't go for more than this. That doesn't mean this won't sell for > $1M though. My guess is it will be > $750K with a chance at $1M...it's significance should not be understated. If I had unlimited funds, the order of Wolverine OA I would want would be the IH181 cover, then probably this page. The cover of GSXM1 (and likely X-men 94) would probably be worth more, but that has as much to do with Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Storm as it does with Wolverine.

 

No one is denying that this is the first appearance of Wolverine and that it is significant. However, it is not the famous, iconic image that the Hulk #181 cover is, which is why the #181 cover is more significant, even if it is the second appearance of the character.

 

There are people, like myself, who know the OA landscape, know who the usual suspects are for this piece, and what they are likely to pay and not pay, both for the #180 page and the #181 cover should it surface. I'm not saying that $750K-$1mm is impossible, but it would be a total guess/leap of faith and certainly not based on any facts, logic, comps, or any other kind of information that dialed-in collectors have at their disposal.

 

"If I had unlimited funds" guesses square away with reality about as often as transitive property arguments like "well, if the ASM #328 cover sold for $657K, then this better piece should sell for more". Fact is, we've seen many pieces better than the ASM #328 cover sell for much less since that particular sale, and comic collectors playing Fantasy OA are rarely clued in about what actual collectors might pay as opposed to their conception of relative importance and valuation.

 

And, before anyone suggests it, no, Hugh Jackman won't be buying the piece. It's always one of the usual suspects - people in the hobby forget that it takes a special kind of lifelong clinical psychosis to rationalize spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for a Herb Trimpe Wolverine page; having a lot of money is simply not enough to get outsiders to pull the trigger.

[B-Smooth]

I have little doubt that it will cross $1,000,000. If the cover to Spidey #328 can sell for $600K+, this should have no problem. It's probably the most important piece of original art that has been auctioned in the last 20 years.

What he said.

[delekkerste]

There are numerous examples of where the cover of the 2nd appearance is/would be worth more than any panel page from the first appearance, e.g.:

 

1st Red Sonja - Conan #23 vs. cover of Conan #24

1st Gambit - X-Men Annual #14 vs. cover of Uncanny X-Men #266

1st Elektra - Marvel house ad/Comics Journal cover vs. cover of Daredevil #168

1st Wolverine - Hulk #180 vs. cover of Hulk #181

 

Don't get me wrong - the Hulk #180 page is a great page and could set a record for an interior page (the DKR #3 splash will be tough to beat, though some here seem to think it will easily do more than double that ). Talk of 7-figure price tags and hyperbole about it being the most significant OA of the last 40 years by outsiders to the OA market are just that - hyperbole by people who don't really know the OA market and its players.

[techtre2003]

I have little doubt that it will cross $1,000,000. If the cover to Spidey #328 can sell for $600K+

 

you can't use the outlier of all outliers as a benchmark, sir. No way does it reach 1m.

 

Sure you can. In fact, you almost have to.

 

Once *something* breaks a psychological barrier, it then becomes easier for something else to beat it. It took decades for coins to break $1M. The first one came tantalizingly close in 1989, at $990,000. It took 7 more years, 1996, for it to finally happen.

 

Since then, in 18 short years, more than 200 different coins have sold for $1M+, some as much as $10,000,000 (1794 Dollar.)

 

The sale itself was a huge outlier...granted...but the public then forgets that it was a bidding war, and only remembers the price. And then it becomes "well, if such and such sold for $600K, it's not out of the question that this far more important piece would sell for so much more.

 

It's bound to happen. When Warhols and Pollocks sell for $100M+, 1/100th of that for pop culture icons doesn't seem so out of the question.

 

I mean, if Jasper Johns works...and he's still alive...can sell for around $100M, it is hardly inconceivable that the most important piece of original art from the last 40 years can break $1M.

 

It's the original art showing the first appearance of what has become arguably the 4th most popular superhero of all time.

 

The only thing I could see being more valuable (as it relates to Wolvie) would be the cover to 181.

 

The best Warhols and Pollocks should be worth more than 100x the best Herb Trimpe.

 

Jasper Johns may be alive, but he ain't making any more $100 million pieces - that price level is reserved for his most important older works.

 

This is not the most important piece of OA from the last 40 years. The Hulk #181 cover probably exists and the GSXM #1 cover definitely exists. I'm sure others would rate various covers (e.g., DKR #1, etc.) above this panel page as well.

 

The public story behind the ASM #328 cover was all kabuki theater. If you knew the real story behind it, you'd readily acknowledge that extenuating circumstances trump any psychological price barrier that was broken. OA guys know this was a total outlier event and treat it as such.

 

I'm not saying that it's impossible for this piece to surpass $1 million, but it's a very small probability (like a 50-1 shot at best). No one who knows the OA market can state with any authority that there is "little doubt" it will hit that level, while "transitive property" arguments (e.g., "The ASM #328 cover sold for $657K, this page is better, so it must be worth a million!") are often flawed and empirically wrong because of shakiness in one or more parts of the syllogism - it would be utterly naive to base an argument around one grounded in a total outlier.

 

Just curious as to why you think that. I just don't understand how this is worth 140 Mil.

 

[delekkerste]

Just curious as to why you think that. I just don't understand how this is worth 140 Mil.

 

 

The short answer is that, you may not understand it, but people with real money do. Do you not like/appreciate the art or is it just the price that you find egregious? I'll be the first to agree that $140 million for almost anything is nutty, but the art itself is beyond reproach. It's mesmerizing, innovative, iconic and historically significant in a way that the 1st appearance of Wolverine could never be - centuries of painting technique and composition turned on its head.

 

As for the price, when you have billionaires competing for so few masterpieces, sometimes you need to get to $140 million to achieve price discrimination. Like I said, I think paying that much for a painting is pretty nuts. But it would be less nuts to me than seeing that Hulk #180 page sell for 7-figures, both because of its relative lack of importance in the grand scheme of things (no one really cares outside our small hobby) and because the pool of likely buyers is not chock full of people who can throw down a million bucks, let alone for a single panel page.

[Tivo32]

Just curious as to why you think that. I just don't understand how this is worth 140 Mil.

 

 

The short answer is that, you may not understand it, but people with real money do. Do you not like/appreciate the art or is it just the price that you find egregious? I'll be the first to agree that $140 million for almost anything is nutty, but the art itself is beyond reproach. It's mesmerizing, innovative, iconic and historically significant in a way that the 1st appearance of Wolverine could never be - centuries of painting technique and composition turned on its head.

 

As for the price, when you have billionaires competing for so few masterpieces, sometimes you need to get to $140 million to achieve price discrimination. Like I said, I think paying that much for a painting is pretty nuts. But it would be less nuts to me than seeing that Hulk #180 page sell for 7-figures.

 

I could honestly say that I've never understood the draw to Pollock's work. I think his work was innovative for the time period in which he was doing it, but I simply don't understand the immense draw to his work. I miss what's mesmerizing about it. Do you think the dollar figures that we see tied with Pollock's work has led somewhat to the appreciation (and for me, over-appreciation) of it art in and of itself?

[Mijael.Levy]

yep the very first true app of Wolverine

 

That tiny little cameo? It's nothing, not even worth mentioning. It isn't like you can really tell it's Wolverine, or he says his name, or interacts with the characters...

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

This is Cameo

 

 

Anyway the day i will own a 181 maybe i will think different

 

 

[Tivo32]

And for me, art begins and ends with Picasso's Guernica

[delekkerste]

I could honestly say that I've never understood the draw to Pollock's work. I think his work was innovative for the time period in which he was doing it, but I simply don't understand the immense draw to his work. I miss what's mesmerizing about it. Do you think the dollar figures that we see tied with Pollock's work has led somewhat to the appreciation (and for me, over-appreciation) of it art in and of itself?

 

I could probably stand in front of a Pollock for hours and not get tired of it - I find his paintings to be mesmerizing, tracing the patterns in the paint and studying the different layers of such...it's beautiful and hypnotic.

 

I think it's impossible to fully separate out the influence of $$$ on art appreciation. But, I think his work speaks for itself, and he was a towering, immense figure in 20th century art history so I would not say that he is over-appreciated at all. If anything, to me there are too many Philistines out there who think "My child could paint that" without really getting his work and place in history at all.

[Rip]

It's better if you see a Pollock in person.

The size really adds to the experience.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Rip

[delekkerste]

And for me, art begins and ends with Picasso's Guernica

 

Yeah, but he's no Herb Trimpe.

 

[Tivo32]

 

I could probably stand in front of a Pollock for hours and not get tired of it - I find his paintings to be mesmerizing, tracing the patterns in the paint and studying the different layers of such...it's beautiful and hypnotic.

 

I think it's impossible to fully separate out the influence of $$$ on art appreciation. But, I think his work speaks for itself, and he was a towering, immense figure in 20th century art history so I would not say that he is over-appreciated at all. If anything, to me there are too many Philistines out there who think "My child could paint that" without really getting his work and place in history at all.

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond, this is a great response and helps answer some of my questions!

[delekkerste]

It's better if you see a Pollock in person.

The size really adds to the experience.

 

+1

 

Here's a picture of me at MoMA back in 2004 in front of a Pollock:

[Tivo32]

I think it's impossible to fully separate out the influence of $$$ on art appreciation.

 

In your opinion, does this cause a problem for art appreciation?

 

It was probably sometime in October / November this past fall that I discovered this story.

 

http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2013/02/finding-vivian-maier-documentary/

 

What about her work? I found her story and work absolutely mesmerizing. And maybe in time the $$$ will follow but for so long the work was unknown.

[techtre2003]

Just curious as to why you think that. I just don't understand how this is worth 140 Mil.

 

 

The short answer is that, you may not understand it, but people with real money do. Do you not like/appreciate the art or is it just the price that you find egregious? I'll be the first to agree that $140 million for almost anything is nutty, but the art itself is beyond reproach. It's mesmerizing, innovative, iconic and historically significant in a way that the 1st appearance of Wolverine could never be - centuries of painting technique and composition turned on its head.

 

As for the price, when you have billionaires competing for so little of the great stuff, sometimes you need to get to $140 million to achieve price discrimination. Like I said, I think paying that much for a painting is pretty nuts. But it would be less nuts to me than seeing that Hulk #180 page sell for 7-figures.

 

Both. I've never understood "art" that simply looks like someone threw some paint at a canvas. I mean, I could create something like that but I couldn't draw Wolverine You say it's mesmerizing, innovative, and iconic. I say any old hack could do the same thing!

 

The fact that "people with real money" understand the art makes the whole thing even more laughable to me. And that's not meant as a jab at you; I've heard that argument before. I don't have a ton of money myself so I think it's silly to spend 10s of thousands on a comicbook. Now if I had money to burn I'm sure I'd feel different. However, I don't care how much money I had, I wouldn't spend a dime on some of the art that's sold for millions.

 

72.8 million - Really?