1st Wolverine art @ $140K with 22 days to go!! 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

[*]Waterson Calvin & Hobbes strip

 

These are excessively hard to get a hold of (as the C&H fans know.)

 

And that Swampy cover...ah, if only I were rich.

 

[tth2]

Speaking of which, is there anyone who thinks the first Surfer page or the first Galactus page from FF #48 would be more important and desirable than the cover to FF #49?

Gene, you seem to be trying to pick a fight over an issue that no one is disputing. I don`t think anyone in their right mind would say that the #180 first appearance panel is going to be worth more than the #181 cover.

 

However, the #180 panel page clearly has a LOT of value attached to it because it`s the first appearance of Wolverine. Is it worth more than any other Wolverine interior page? I would say yes, including the splash from #181, but it`s certainly debatable and we`ll never really know until the pages from #181 come up for sale.

 

The only other question is how much value should be attached to this page, which is obviously a legitimate debate and one which will be settled in about 3 weeks.

[tth2]

[*]Infantino's Mystery in Space #90 cover

It`s a recreation.

Edited April 25, 2014 by tth2

[delekkerste]

Gene, you seem to be trying to pick a fight over an issue that no one is disputing. I don`t think anyone in their right mind would say that the #180 first appearance panel is going to be worth more than the #181 cover.

 

1. You may be confusing "worth" with "importance".

2. Not everyone here is "in their right mind".

3. If the #180 page is "easily" worth 7-figures, where does that put the value of the #181 cover?

 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear - covers aside, would the first Surfer appearance page from FF #48 be worth more than the best interior pages from FF #49-50? Or would people regard them as essentially a single storyline and pick the best images from the lot? I know myself and others would say the latter, as the market has done/would do with other similar situations (e.g., Conan 23-24). There are also numerous Elektra pages from the Miller DD run that are more valuable than the #168 pages. This fixation that the "first ever appearance" absolutely has to be the most valuable is wrong and held largely by comic collectors who are fixated on CGC labels and Overstreet notations and the like. I collect first and first-ever appearances and can tell you from first-hand experience that the OA market doesn't always work that way - sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, but it's certainly not set in stone. It may be the case this time, because the Hulk #180 page is nicer than most/all of the #181 pages, though the #181 splash I'm sure would give it a run for its money (or would have before this #180 page came to market; this level of hype/frenzy will be difficult to generate again if/when the #181 pages come to market, not to mention the #180 page winner may be out of the market then or may be not as hungry then).

 

Anyway, I have nothing against this piece - I've said on record that it's great and I like it a lot. Though, if I could own any Wolvie piece with the stipulation that I could never sell it, there are several more that resonate more with me that I'd rather have - the UXM #115 double splash, the UXM #133 cover, the Wolvie LS #1 cover and the UXM #172-173 covers - to me, that's the definitive Wolverine and the Wolverine of my peak nostalgia as rendered by Byrne, Miller and Smith.

 

I do object to the hyperbole from people who seem to have forgotten comic history - the most important or 2nd most important piece of OA in the past 40 years? Who here agrees with that? And, while I'm not discounting the possibility of a huge price, to say that it will easily surpass $1 million is a claim that no knowledgeable OA collector or dealer would make. Heck, even Burkey would only go on record saying more than $200K (and he's not one to shy away from putting the pom-poms on). Even if the piece does sell for a truly insane amount, it would do nothing to change the ex ante fact it was utterly baseless speculation (as opposed to considered opinion from those who know the market and the players) and that pointing to outliers like the ASM #328 cover, let alone $100 million Modern art masterpieces, to justify any other price is a completely exercise.

[Chip Cataldo]

I would like the names and phone numbers of the "usual suspects" bidding on this auction. I'm not going to harass them, I'm simply going to ask them each once if they can get the $5,000+ from in-between their couch cushions and under their car seats and send it to me. I could really use the cash and they certainly won't miss it. Thanks.

 

 

Peace,

 

Chip

[The-Collector]

Just curious as to why you think that. I just don't understand how this is worth 140 Mil.

 

 

The short answer is that, you may not understand it, but people with real money do. Do you not like/appreciate the art or is it just the price that you find egregious? I'll be the first to agree that $140 million for almost anything is nutty, but the art itself is beyond reproach. It's mesmerizing, innovative, iconic and historically significant in a way that the 1st appearance of Wolverine could never be - centuries of painting technique and composition turned on its head.

 

As for the price, when you have billionaires competing for so little of the great stuff, sometimes you need to get to $140 million to achieve price discrimination. Like I said, I think paying that much for a painting is pretty nuts. But it would be less nuts to me than seeing that Hulk #180 page sell for 7-figures.

 

Both. I've never understood "art" that simply looks like someone threw some paint at a canvas. I mean, I could create something like that but I couldn't draw Wolverine You say it's mesmerizing, innovative, and iconic. I say any old hack could do the same thing!

 

The fact that "people with real money" understand the art makes the whole thing even more laughable to me. And that's not meant as a jab at you; I've heard that argument before. I don't have a ton of money myself so I think it's silly to spend 10s of thousands on a comicbook. Now if I had money to burn I'm sure I'd feel different. However, I don't care how much money I had, I wouldn't spend a dime on some of the art that's sold for millions.

 

72.8 million - Really?

 

Looks like an ice cream sandwich. Anyhow, the money thing aside, I just don't get the appeal of Pollock's work. If it had no real monetary value, and was just a painting on a wall, I'd have that monstrosity removed from my house. I respect all peoples opinions, but it's just my opinion that my 5 year old son with a couple of buckets of paint and a brush could make the same thing.

 

haha. this always makes me laugh. I once got a job from a guy wanting to sell knock off Leroy Nieman style posters. I figured (like you did) that its all drips and splashes that look like sports figures, but not real painting like I was doing.

 

after an entire day trying, and getting nowhere, I gave up and never called the guy back.

 

 

Same idea with Pollack. When you stand there and take in it, you see the layering, and the depth, and you see that the paint while being "splattered" which anyone of us can do, was CAREFULLY splattered, spaced out beautifully, allowing the different colors to work with each other. Closest description I can think of would be looking at winter tree branches of many layers of trees overlapping, forming a mesmerizingly perfect latticework.

 

anyway, as Gene says, the prices they get are ridiculous except viewed thru the prism of guy with 1000x that much money fighting over bragging rights for owning whats out there that the other guys covet too.

 

Im not a huge Pollack fan, and for many years agreed that it was silly if not simple stuff. But one day by chance I was in front of one and I suddenly got it. My eyes were darting all around the canvas and having fun soaking it in.

 

 

and seriously, YOUR KID COULD NEVER PAINT IT. He could paint HIS work 1000x times better than Pollack could paint your kids work, though. So thats something to be proud of!

 

 

I agree standing in front of a Pollock is entirely different to viewing pictures.

 

I may have made a 1million plus statement re the hulk 180 page. In light of more informed opinions I officially retract that piece of hyperbole.

[delekkerste]

I may have made a 1million plus statement re the hulk 180 page. In light of more informed opinions I officially retract that piece of hyperbole.

 

This is a great page, but $1 million is perilously close to Ditko ASM complete story territory and about double what some of the most iconic covers in the hobby have (allegedly) sold privately for. Which also begs the question: why use the ASM #328 cover as a data point when several A+ iconic covers have sold for less since then?

 

Anything can happen, of course, but this page topping a million bucks would be like Arcangues winning the 1993 Breeders Cup Classic at 133-1 (the announcer famously yelled "He's 99 to 1!" but that's because the toteboard doesn't go into triple digits):

 

[slym2none]

Not everyone here is "in their right mind".

 

QFT, Comics General.

 

 

 

 

-slym (is a little hmself)

[RockMyAmadeus]

Gene, you seem to be trying to pick a fight over an issue that no one is disputing. I don`t think anyone in their right mind would say that the #180 first appearance panel is going to be worth more than the #181 cover.

 

1. You may be confusing "worth" with "importance".

2. Not everyone here is "in their right mind".

3. If the #180 page is "easily" worth 7-figures, where does that put the value of the #181 cover?

 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear - covers aside, would the first Surfer appearance page from FF #48 be worth more than the best interior pages from FF #49-50? Or would people regard them as essentially a single storyline and pick the best images from the lot? I know myself and others would say the latter, as the market has done/would do with other similar situations (e.g., Conan 23-24). There are also numerous Elektra pages from the Miller DD run that are more valuable than the #168 pages. This fixation that the "first ever appearance" absolutely has to be the most valuable is wrong and held largely by comic collectors who are fixated on CGC labels and Overstreet notations and the like. I collect first and first-ever appearances and can tell you from first-hand experience that the OA market doesn't always work that way - sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, but it's certainly not set in stone. It may be the case this time, because the Hulk #180 page is nicer than most/all of the #181 pages, though the #181 splash I'm sure would give it a run for its money (or would have before this #180 page came to market; this level of hype/frenzy will be difficult to generate again if/when the #181 pages come to market, not to mention the #180 page winner may be out of the market then or may be not as hungry then).

 

Anyway, I have nothing against this piece - I've said on record that it's great and I like it a lot. Though, if I could own any Wolvie piece with the stipulation that I could never sell it, there are several more that resonate more with me that I'd rather have - the UXM #115 double splash, the UXM #133 cover, the Wolvie LS #1 cover and the UXM #172-173 covers - to me, that's the definitive Wolverine and the Wolverine of my peak nostalgia as rendered by Byrne, Miller and Smith.

 

I do object to the hyperbole from people who seem to have forgotten comic history - the most important or 2nd most important piece of OA in the past 40 years? Who here agrees with that? And, while I'm not discounting the possibility of a huge price, to say that it will easily surpass $1 million is a claim that no knowledgeable OA collector or dealer would make. Heck, even Burkey would only go on record saying more than $200K (and he's not one to shy away from putting the pom-poms on). Even if the piece does sell for a truly insane amount, it would do nothing to change the ex ante fact it was utterly baseless speculation (as opposed to considered opinion from those who know the market and the players) and that pointing to outliers like the ASM #328 cover, let alone $100 million Modern art masterpieces, to justify any other price is a completely exercise.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I agree standing in front of a Pollock is entirely different to viewing pictures.

 

I may have made a 1million plus statement re the hulk 180 page. In light of more informed opinions I officially retract that piece of hyperbole.

 

 

The "more informed opinion" has stated, multiple times, that "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened" with regards to events in the comics industry, among other misstatements.

 

You know...despite the reality of History departments in schools all over the world.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'll say this again:

 

It is likely the most important piece of comic book OA auctioned in the last 20 years.

 

Why?

 

It is the first depiction (published) of the 4th most popular superhero in the world.

 

Short of comparable pages of Superman (almost guaranteed to no longer exist) and Batman (almost guaranteed to no longer exist) and Spiderman (safely ensconced in the Library of Congress), there are few pieces of OA which are comparable in terms of historic importance.

 

Therefore, it breaks the rules for "normal" OA.

 

The fact is, more important pieces...and the argument can be made for covers like FF #1, Hulk #1, X-Men #1, etc, are more important pieces than this...either no longer exist, or haven't shown up in the last 20 years.

 

"But OA buyers don't CARE (as much) about the fact that it's Wolverine's first appearance."

 

Right. Because OA collectors care ONLY about the merit of the piece itself, and not what it means to pop culture in general.

 

 

As we know from Fine Art, that's not true at all. The NAME adds the superstar status, not *necessarily* the quality of the piece itself. 10 years ago, I agree, it would not have made an impact. But that was 10 years ago, not now. Now, Wolverine is a character who has gained worldwide fame, and the argument can be made (again, keeping in mind that this is OPINION) that he is the 4th most popular comic book character in the entire world (after Supes, Bats, and Spidey.)

 

The cover to #181 is more important. <------ this statement is opinion. It is not provable. Opinion, even if 10 billion people agree, is not the same thing as fact. When and if the cover to #181 shows up for public sale, then it should surpass this page.

 

This is a unique situation. Will it cross $1M? I think it stands a fair shot, and if not, at least close. Will I be wrong? Who knows? It's an AUCTION, anything can happen. It's at nearly $1/4M now. It's already surpassed many other pieces that some might consider "more important."

 

Do I follow the OA market as closely as some? No, of course not. Does that mean I am talking completely out of my rear, and know nothing about what I speak? No.

 

And people can disagree...even those who might be "more informed" than others...without being dismissive about it. I know I'm making that effort.

[delekkerste]

I'll say this again:

 

It is likely the most important piece of comic book OA auctioned in the last 20 years.

 

Why?

 

It is the first depiction (published) of the 4th most popular superhero in the world.

 

Short of comparable pages of Superman (almost guaranteed to no longer exist) and Batman (almost guaranteed to no longer exist) and Spiderman (safely ensconced in the Library of Congress), there are few pieces of OA which are comparable in terms of historic importance.

 

Therefore, it breaks the rules for "normal" OA.

 

The fact is, more important pieces...and the argument can be made for covers like FF #1, Hulk #1, X-Men #1, etc, are more important pieces than this...either no longer exist, or haven't shown up in the last 20 years.

 

"But OA buyers don't CARE (as much) about the fact that it's Wolverine's first appearance."

 

Right. Because OA collectors care ONLY about the merit of the piece itself, and not what it means to pop culture in general.

 

 

As we know from Fine Art, that's not true at all. The NAME adds the superstar status, not *necessarily* the quality of the piece itself. 10 years ago, I agree, it would not have made an impact. But that was 10 years ago, not now. Now, Wolverine is a character who has gained worldwide fame, and the argument can be made (again, keeping in mind that this is OPINION) that he is the 4th most popular comic book character in the entire world (after Supes, Bats, and Spidey.)

 

The cover to #181 is more important. <------ this statement is opinion. It is not provable. Opinion, even if 10 billion people agree, is not the same thing as fact. When and if the cover to #181 shows up for public sale, then it should surpass this page.

 

This is a unique situation. Will it cross $1M? I think it stands a fair shot, and if not, at least close. Will I be wrong? Who knows? It's an AUCTION, anything can happen. It's at nearly $1/4M now. It's already surpassed many other pieces that some might consider "more important."

 

Do I follow the OA market as closely as some? No, of course not. Does that mean I am talking completely out of my rear, and know nothing about what I speak? No.

 

And people can disagree...even those who might be "more informed" than others...without being dismissive about it. I know I'm making that effort.

 

You continue to labor under the misconception that "first" = "best" = "most valuable" when there are countless instances of where the first appearance OA is not/would not be the most valuable in a character's canon. In this case, we can be 99.99999999999999999% sure (close enough to be "fact" for everyone here except you) that the Hulk #181 cover would be considered both better and more valuable than this page even though it's the character's second appearance. You can say this is opinion and not fact, but, by that pedantic standard, we can't say that the Hulk #181 cover is more important than a Rob Liefeld convention sketch either.

 

First appearances are also not the only major events in comics. I can assure you that Elektra pages/cover from DD #181 would be worth more than the cover/pages to DD #168, much as the X-Men #137 cover would be worth more than the cover/pages to X-Men #101. In fact, if the rumors about offers made regarding the #137 cover are true, the Hulk #180 page should finish comfortably below that level.

 

And, it's not all about the character either - the artist matters a lot too. I don't know too many people who would pay $1 million for this piece when that is within spitting distance of being able to buy a complete Ditko ASM story - which many would consider to be equal to or more historic in the grand scheme of things even if we're not talking about Spidey's first appearance. I'm sorry, but you are judging importance through a very narrow lens, and coming up with all sorts of misguided and wildly fanciful conclusions as a result. I'm sure there are early non-key Ditko and Kirby covers out there that would fetch more if they surfaced, simply because they are more important creators in the grand scheme of things and, even though we're not necessarily talking about first appearances, early, seminal works by these two would be considered by most to be more important.

 

As a rule of thumb, covers of equal or better quality will be far more expensive than a comparable interior. There are numerous covers out there that would likely fetch more than what this page will, unless two people go totally insane over it. Speaking of which, I'm glad to see you are backtracking from your ludicrous statement that this piece will easily surpass $1 million, though it just shows that maybe you didn't really know as much about the OA market as you thought.

[delekkerste]

I have little doubt that it will cross $1,000,000. If the cover to Spidey #328 can sell for $600K+, this should have no problem.

 

Saved for posterity.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm glad to see you are backtracking from your ludicrous statement that this piece will easily surpass $1 million,

 

You are misrepresenting.....again....what I said. I said "I have little doubt that it will cross $1 million"....that is not the same as "this piece will easily surpass $1 million."

 

Is it possible for you to have discussion with anyone without misrepresenting what they said to score your points...? You DO realize that making straw men arguments is a fallacious way to discuss anything, don't you? Yet, you keep on doing it. And yet, you are the wisdom from on high, and I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about....?

 

Your hubris is immense.

 

As to the rest...

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have little doubt that it will cross $1,000,000. If the cover to Spidey #328 can sell for $600K+, this should have no problem.

 

Saved for posterity.

 

No need. The original is still there, unedited.

 

But I AM glad you managed to quote it correctly, without changing what I actually said to suit your argument better.

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Addendum:

 

the Hulk #181 cover would be considered both better and more valuable than this page even though it's the character's second appearance. You can say this is opinion and not fact, but, by that pedantic standard, we can't say that the Hulk #181 cover is more important than a Rob Liefeld convention sketch either.

 

As tth said before, no one is disputing this.

 

I don't know how to make it any more clear to you.

 

No one is disputing that the cover to Hulk #181 is more important and more valuable than the last page of #180.

 

But the fact is, the #180 page is up for auction NOW, while the cover to #181 has not been up for public sale in the last 20 years.

 

It is STILL opinion, which you would do well to understand. Fact and opinion...even opinion shared by everyone...are DIFFERENT things. One is demonstrable, provable, and the other is not. You can make an ARGUMENT for an opinion, and it could be a very STRONG argument...but that doesn't make it an established fact, which is what you seem to have a problem with.

 

Here's a really good hint: whenever you see qualifying words like "more" or "less" in conjunction with adjectives like "important" or "beautiful" or "desirable" or "hideous", the chances are reallllly good that you're discussing opinion, and not fact. Spiderman's first published appearance is in Amazing Fantasy #15. This is an established, demonstrable fact. He did not "more appear" in Amazing Fantasy #15. He first appeared.

[delekkerste]

I have little doubt that it will cross $1,000,000. If the cover to Spidey #328 can sell for $600K+, this should have no problem.

 

Saved for posterity.

 

No need. The original is still there, unedited.

 

But I AM glad you managed to quote it correctly, without changing what I actually said to suit your argument better.

 

(thumbs u

 

Oh yeah, because there is sooooo much difference from saying it will easily pass $1 million and there is little doubt it will cross $1 million.

 

But, do go on and continue to opine authoritatively on matters which you clearly know little about. (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Oh yeah, because there is sooooo much difference from saying it will easily pass $1 million and there is little doubt it will cross $1 million.

 

There is, quite a bit. Different words have different meanings.

 

But, do go on and continue to opine authoritatively on matters which you clearly know little about. (thumbs u

 

At least, in the conversation, I won't misstate what you have said for the purposes of making my own opinion stronger, as you have done consistently, nor will I continue to try and prove to everyone that my opinion is established fact, again, as you have done consistently.

 

So, I have that going for me.

 

If you consistently need to do these things, what does that say for your own "authority"....?

 

[Bronty]

this is some good entertainment guys

[Bronty]

With all due respect RMA I don't think Gene's made any ludicrous statements or anything here. I don't think he's significantly misrepresented anything you've said It seems like you're having to dig deep to defend your initial statements, which - I'm sorry - were flawed. Its OK to be wrong on the internet once in a while.

 

Unless its something I've said. That works under completely different rules I'm never wrong