Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[slym2none]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

I wonder what ever happened to that guy?

In the age of the internet maybe he can be found and we can ask him what the hands on process was? Did he trim or not trim?

If not him, then try to find a similar employee who worked in that time period to answer the questions.

 

That's exactly where my information comes from. Someone who stood right there and worked on the equipment and produced these comics we're currently discussing.

I worked with the guy for 10 years and talked to him at length about this.

 

It's like I'm just standing here talking and nobody listens to mess I'm saying. I'm invisible or something.

 

 

Some of us are listening.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[skypinkblu]

how were the covers added, since they were different paper stock.?

 

You ignored me

 

In the video you notice that pieces of the books fall onto the chain as the book travels toward the cutter. The very last "pocket" drops a cover onto the chain. The same as any other piece of the book.

I've never ignored you in my life. All this went down while I was getting ready for work and I just missed it.

 

why were some of the books listed in Overstreet and on comic.org as saddlestitched, and some not.?

 

I don't know. Every book with staples through the center is a "saddlestitched" book.

 

 

OK, I mentioned this the last time that Roy came up with the shrinkage theory. I attended a seminar (along with hundreds of others) where Bedrock and Matt Nelson explained how to detect restoration.

 

They talked about the V and how if it's missing, that's a sign the book has been trimmed. They said the "V" was formed because the pages were cut, stapled, and then folded.

 

I took notes.

 

Perhaps, since Matt, is an "expert" you should see if he has any questions for your friend ...

and thank you:)

 

BTW, I spoke in length a board member who is a professor of chemistry...he didn't subscribe to the horizontal shrinkage and vertical growth theory....but gathering lots of information is a great idea.

[MrBedrock]

Wouldn't it be cool if someone knew someone from Sparta who was involved in the bindery process and could answer our questions? If only someone around here knew such a person.

[Silver Surfer]

Wouldn't it be cool if someone knew someone from Sparta who was involved in the bindery process and could answer our questions? If only someone around here knew such a person.

 

[Aces]

Given those two scans at any point between 2000 when CGC brought page quality to the forefront and a month ago before this thread, I bet most people would have picked the Costanza'ed book simply because the page quality was better.

Why do you keep implying that before this thread, nobody cared about this defect? I sure did, and I bet most people would pick the better looking copy, which is not the one with the shrunken cover. And that includes 'ole Cole himself, since, as Doug told us, he went after books with "superior structure, centering and presentation". I mean, who wouldn't?

Well there was that original face job for grandpa Avengers 1 8.5 turned into a 9.2 thread.

That was the first time I was made aware of this new pressing technique.

I suspect 90% of he folks here were as well.

 

 

[MrBedrock]

how were the covers added, since they were different paper stock.?

 

You ignored me

 

In the video you notice that pieces of the books fall onto the chain as the book travels toward the cutter. The very last "pocket" drops a cover onto the chain. The same as any other piece of the book.

I've never ignored you in my life. All this went down while I was getting ready for work and I just missed it.

 

why were some of the books listed in Overstreet and on comic.org as saddlestitched, and some not.?

 

I don't know. Every book with staples through the center is a "saddlestitched" book.

 

 

OK, I mentioned this the last time that Roy came up with the shrinkage theory. I attended a seminar (along with hundreds of others) where Bedrock and Matt Nelson explained how to detect restoration.

 

They talked about the V and how if it's missing, that's a sign the book has been trimmed. They said the "V" was formed because the pages were cut, stapled, and then folded.

 

I took notes.

 

Perhaps, since Matt, is an "expert" you should see if he has any questions for your friend ...

and thank you:)

 

BTW, I spoke in length a board member who is a professor of chemistry...he didn't subscribe to the horizontal shrinkage and vertical growth theory....but gathering lots of information is a great idea.

I will admit that at the time of that seminar I assumed that books were cut and then folded. The cover shrinkage/expansion explanation for cover overhang was unknown to me then. An unnaturally squared off page edge (lack of V) is still a reliable method to detect post production trimming. My experience has been that most books exhibit some kind of V to the page edge regardless of publisher or age.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Wouldn't it be cool if someone knew someone from Sparta who was involved in the bindery process and could answer our questions? If only someone around here knew such a person.

Wouldn`t it be cool that after over 190 posts that this mess would be resolved?

Wouldn`t be cool that the caretakers of this hobby would step up to the plate and demand a resolution or its there too much money to be lost?

Like I said before there will be a lot of whining,hurt feelings and people feeling duped,but nothing will happen. It will stay status quo. This thread will die to be replaced by yet another thread down the line about how some other dealer/collector/speculator/investor gamed the system.

[faster friends]

Paul Litch, Matt Nelson, the following needs to be answered. How did this Reverse Spine Tug receive such a bump ? Especially since it appeared after the CGC reverse spine-roll proclamation.

 

I'm intersted in what Mark has to say too.......this group needs some clarity, the pitchforks will (perhaps) retreat a bit at that time.

 

Is that what this thread is comprised of? A torch and pitchfork crowd??

 

If you truly believe that to be the case then let me throw more wood on the fire for you.

 

And I apologize in advance if it transgresses upon your innocuous reading pleasure.

 

When Mark returns he can extinguish the inferno by donning his firefighting outfit.

 

*************

 

Here's a Facejob that is comparable to those identified as being Wilson-ized a few months back.

 

Posted as a link earlier in this thread it is reimaged here for posterity so as not to dematerialize into the void once eBay cleanses the public auction record.

 

That said, some points of observation regarding book traceability.

 

– Acquired June 16, 2013 via Heritage Auctions.

 

– Remanufactured using the Facejob technique.

 

– Certified anew August 14, 2013.

 

– Liquidated by Eides Entertainment via eBay September 8, 2013.

 

This facejobbed collectable appeared after the CGC reverse spine-roll proclamation, post investigative study concerning the Wilsonization of Avengers #1 et al.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

Someone just PM'd me that the Cole Shave books are not on GPA ?

I'm getting a lot of interesting PM's. Anybody else ?

 

 

 

 

 

[slym2none]

I never get PM's. It's OK, I understand why.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[comeaux]

I didn’t have time to read the entire 189 pages of this thread but after reading only a few I feel like I may not be smart enough to be a comic collector anymore …

[Silver Surfer]

The probably haven't gotten around to providing the info to GPA yet. More important things to do like pulling down the auction pictures as fast as you can.

[VintageComics]

I think George stopped accepting Doug's GPA submissions after the forum discussions regarding Doug's auctions.

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

I didn’t have time to read the entire 189 pages of this thread but after reading only a few I feel like I may not be smart enough to be a comic collector anymore …

Then become a comic reader again! digital comics on an iPad or Kindle Fire or buy the trades or masterworks from Amazon.

If not then watch the super hero blockbuster movies or play the video games.

Why waste time about this anymore? It is what it is.

Go back and read comics like you did when you first started.

I guarantee you will enjoy the hobby much more if you read the comics,then worrying about if comic books were pressed or trimmed, plus you will find digital comics, trade paperbacks, super hero blu-rays and video games will save you a lot more money then buying slabs in the long run. You will get more entertainment bang for your buck!

[adamstrange]

Post 'em up.

 

If shrunken covers are as common as table salt how come posters were so puzzled until Matt Nelson confirmed "cover shrink" and explained the years involved?

How come the term doesn't appear in the Grading Guide glossary or Overstreet definitions?

How old is this hobby?

I have no idea if these covers shrunk or if it's just the way the books were assembled and originally cut. (I'm not posting these to defend the Costanza'd books. I'm posting them to point out that many books show similar traits.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All of these books exhibit a normal look that are not out of proportion.

 

These books are not normal.

 

They're amazing!

 

Seriously, I don't see any Constanza's in that group.

[Bomber-Bob]

I think George stopped accepting Doug's GPA submissions after the forum discussions regarding Doug's auctions.

 

 

I remember those discussions, Schmell was selectivey submitting data.

I thought the conclusion was he was going to submit all. I guess not.

I really don't want to be critical at a personal level but there's something to be said about the same person being in the middle of so many dubious actions.

Sad.

[Sqeggs]

 

A) if we begin to downgrade for artificially produced Costanza covers, what is the real reason we are downgrading? Because they deserve to be downgraded based on eye appeal or because we are trying to prevent someone from tampering in the future. If it's because we are trying to prevent tampering is that a good reason to change grading standards?

 

 

Both reasons seem legitimate to me. Some of the CS books now look strikingly bad and not only just in comparison with their pre-pressed selves. It will be disappointing if CGC maintains its current position that this is not a defect worth downgrading for.

 

And "trying to prevent tampering" is a perfectly fine reason for changing grading criteria. We just saw an example of this with the change in how books with taped-up spines are graded. They changed that policy not because they had previously underestimated the effect of tape on books. They changed the policy to deter dealers from taping up the spines of GA books.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

I wonder what ever happened to that guy?

In the age of the internet maybe he can be found and we can ask him what the hands on process was? Did he trim or not trim?

If not him, then try to find a similar employee who worked in that time period to answer the questions.

btw

This response was intended to be tongue and cheek and not to be taken seriously.

[Foolkiller]

What's the realistic resolution folks would like to see here?

[comicdonna]

I would like to see CGC change their policy like they did with tape, to help prevent this from happening.