Insane press and flip Avengers 1.

[fantastic_four]

Joey is cool with all the comments. Everyone is allowed to have and openly express their opinion.

 

I just read my reply and realise I sound like Cal.

 

Jimmy's not threatened by Joey's completely normal tendency to refer to himself in the third person ... Jimmy's happy for Joey.

 

[porky]

It's not top secret.

 

You know better than that. Joey or someone else who knows exactly what's being done would have written the paragraph it takes to explain it by now if they didn't prefer it being kept secret. People don't like restoration techniques being openly discussed because they prefer to keep them close to the chest so they can profit from them with reduced competition or because they hate the idea of that specific type of work and keeping the techniques quiet reduces the number of people who perform them. If people didn't prefer to keep this kind of topic close to the chest, CGC would have never deleted the thread where Povertyrow and FFB quite verbosely described how to press comics.

 

Just in case Joey thinks I'm picking on him, I should point out that he expressed his disdain for this spine-shifting earlier in this thread, and because of that, I'm guessing he passed on my request to describe the technique for the second reason for keeping these techniques quiet I mentioned above--he doesn't want more people doing this because he isn't fond of the work. I'm quoting him here to make that fact more clear.

 

Did the defects go away? No. They are still present only on the back of the book.

 

Does the book looker nicer? No, it now has a spine roll that was purposely introduced.

 

I press for a living and have a hard time justifying what was done to this book.

 

I would say the ball that was dropped is still rolling around on the floor.

 

Joey is cool with all the comments. Everyone is allowed to have and openly express their opinion.

 

I just read my reply and realise I sound like Cal.

 

Just play it off like you were doing some Hulk-talk: "Joey smash!...comics into better shape!"

[fantastic_four]

I've read most of both threads--has anyone laid out the procedure required to do this and I missed it?

 

Holy mess, no I haven't. I read the CG thread, which pointed me here, then I read this thread. Just went back to CG and found it had grown by more than 2000 posts since I first saw it. I've got some reading to do.

[Green]

What do you think the endgame is going to be with this?

 

Nothing. business as usual.

[Green]

How do you not F up the staples or the spine above and below them? Can you only do this with books whose staples are situated on the front?

i think staples play a part in it. I was fiddling with a couple of my beaters and it seemed fairly easy. Also, that technique is just a guess but it was the only way I was able to do it.

 

On the Avengers 1, more of the interior is visible on the right side after the shifting than before it. If all that is being done is to re-do the main fold in a different position without removing or replacing the staples in a different position, how is it that the cover no longer aligns the same way with the interior?

 

You are seeing the second half of a book that is no longer folded in half.

[SpideyFein]

Reading this post just blew my mind and changed the way I think about resto and the wild things people do for grades-or dough. C'mon! But then there are wild bucks in every facet of collecting. Thanks to all of you. As I've said before, you are detectives and know your books.

[gaz973]

Reading this post just blew my mind and changed the way I think about resto and the wild things people do for grades-or dough. C'mon! But then there are wild bucks in every facet of collecting. Thanks to all of you. As I've said before, you are detectives and know your books.

Anywhere there is money, there is someone working out how they can get their hands on it.

[bane]

Reading this post just blew my mind and changed the way I think about resto and the wild things people do for grades-or dough. C'mon! But then there are wild bucks in every facet of collecting. Thanks to all of you. As I've said before, you are detectives and know your books.

Anywhere there is money, there is someone working out how they can get their hands on it.

 

Of course.

[Comicopolis]

It's not top secret.

 

You know better than that. Joey or someone else who knows exactly what's being done would have written the paragraph it takes to explain it by now if they didn't prefer it being kept secret. People don't like restoration techniques being openly discussed because they prefer to keep them close to the chest so they can profit from them with reduced competition or because they hate the idea of that specific type of work and keeping the techniques quiet reduces the number of people who perform them. If people didn't prefer to keep this kind of topic close to the chest, CGC would have never deleted the thread where Povertyrow and FFB quite verbosely described how to press comics.

 

Just in case Joey thinks I'm picking on him, I should point out that he expressed his disdain for this spine-shifting earlier in this thread, and because of that, I'm guessing he passed on my request to describe the technique for the second reason for keeping these techniques quiet I mentioned above--he doesn't want more people doing this because he isn't fond of the work. I'm quoting him here to make that fact more clear.

 

Did the defects go away? No. They are still present only on the back of the book.

 

Does the book looker nicer? No, it now has a spine roll that was purposely introduced.

 

I press for a living and have a hard time justifying what was done to this book.

 

I would say the ball that was dropped is still rolling around on the floor.

 

Joey is cool with all the comments. Everyone is allowed to have and openly express their opinion.

 

I just read my reply and realise I sound like Cal.

 

Do you wear purple suits as well?

[Comicopolis]

Reading this post just blew my mind and changed the way I think about resto and the wild things people do for grades-or dough. C'mon! But then there are wild bucks in every facet of collecting. Thanks to all of you. As I've said before, you are detectives and know your books.

Anywhere there is money, there is someone working out how they can get their hands on it.

 

Of course.

 

Indeed.

[fantastic_four]

How do you not F up the staples or the spine above and below them? Can you only do this with books whose staples are situated on the front?

i think staples play a part in it. I was fiddling with a couple of my beaters and it seemed fairly easy. Also, that technique is just a guess but it was the only way I was able to do it.

 

On the Avengers 1, more of the interior is visible on the right side after the shifting than before it. If all that is being done is to re-do the main fold in a different position without removing or replacing the staples in a different position, how is it that the cover no longer aligns the same way with the interior?

 

You are seeing the second half of a book that is no longer folded in half.

 

Your description of the book being no longer folded in half is an interesting one that while not entirely true, the point of your describing it that way is a valid one because it doesn't appear that the new fold is as hard as the original printing folds are. However, since we can't see the spines of these books he's worked on, it seems difficult to compare his folds to the way that comics are folded on the press. Does anyone know how force is applied in the mechanical folding process that comics go through when printing? DiceX?

 

I'm also still not sure if what he's doing is a one-step press or a two-step press. Is he first pressing out the original production fold, establishing a different fold by hand, and then pressing again? Or does he press out the original fold, establish the new fold by hand, and then just use weight pressure to set the new fold, perhaps with just a heavy book?

 

I'm also not sure what's causing the fanning. I do know that comics are first assambled, then folded, and then the edges are trimmed off during production because they naturally fan out in a similar way. Is the fanning on these books a result of the new fold causing a new page spread that's different from the fanning that was factory-trimmed off?

[Spideydan]

Someone has to know where his 4.5 Batman 1 came from before it was pressed and what its previous grade was. You can also tell on the BC that the spine has been shifted.

 

It was auctioned by ComicConnect in August of last year, as part of the Ruben Blades collection. It was a 2.0 with cover detached and centerfold detached from bottom staple only. The erasure marks beneath the image of Batman on the front cover give it away.

 

In this case, the grade appears to have also been helped in part by removing the spine roll (making the spine look much prettier than it did), but I really wish CGC would stop rewarding tape jobs with grade bumps.

wow a 2.0 to a 4.5. If you ask me the seller has mastered when to use tape to maximize a book.

 

This is ugly...

 

CGC's institutionalization of "pre-processing" books by hiring Matt Nelson to do in-house work for them just exasperates this abomination. This guy certainly takes the cake, but CGC serves it up to us on a Silver platter with a bib, fork, and napkin while holding the chair for us before we sit down to eat. Reminds me of Hannibal Lecter feeding Ray Liotta his own brains in Hannibal.

[VintageComics]

I'm also not sure what's causing the fanning. I do know that comics are first assambled, then folded, and then the edges are trimmed off during production because they naturally fan out in a similar way. Is the fanning on these books a result of the new fold causing a new page spread that's different from the fanning that was factory-trimmed off?

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

[MrBedrock]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

[buttock]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

 

Neither of your theories account for why they 'v' out at the top, and not at the bottom. Where is your god now???

[MrBedrock]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

 

Neither of your theories account for why they 'v' out at the top, and not at the bottom. Where is your god now???

According to Roy that would be because the top is dryer.

[VintageComics]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

 

From everything that I have gathered, comics were stapled, folded and then trimmed on 3 edges.

 

I find it hard to believe that comics could be trimmed and then folded with any degree of accuracy when publishers couldn't stop miswraps from happening, staples from wandering from the edge of the spine and trapezoidal miscuts from happening. If none of these defects were able to be prevented (and some are off by as much as a 1/4") then how could they possibly have literally 1,000,000's of comics be so perfectly folded after trimming? It's out of the realm of possibly to me based on all the other production defects that comics have.

 

Additionally, you'll notice that SA Marvels seem to have the V more than DC's do, even though they were published the same way.

 

The obvious explanation (I think) is that Marvel used different paper and inks - which is obvious once you compare two books from the same era. Marvel didn't have the same capital that DC had and they went with very cheap inks and paper.

 

As far as books that have the V, not all books have the same amount of "V".

 

Some books (those that are really fresh) do not have it at all - I've seen white paged Silver Age books with perfectly square edges receive a blue label - I'm quite sure that they were not trimmed because even though the edges were square, the "cut marks" across the edges was typical of Marvel proving that the edges were like that from publication.

 

Others seem to have the V formatiom - I assume because the pages have started to change shape.

 

@ Buttock - Dan, are you talking about the top edge or the top half of the right side?

 

RE: the top edge having a V but not the bottom? Possibly because the bottom is sitting on a flat surface forcing the V to happen only at the top

 

RE: the right edge having a V towards the top but not at the bottom? The top of the pages would generally be more exposed to the atmosphere than the bottom of the pages if they were stored vertically - and most seem to be in collector's boxes.

 

The V does seem to happen width-wise across the book (left to right rather than top to bottom) and I can only assume that it happens in one direction but not the other because of the grain that the pulp travels in across the paper causing more shrinkage in one direction than the other.

[Aman619]

it all depends on when in the stages of production the books are trimmed on three sides down to comicbook size. I believe the 8 page signatures are folded with overhand all around 3 sides, then covers attached/stapled, then stacked however many high, and then trimmed (guillotined) on three sides.

 

If that is true, then comics start out with a straight cut on the top, bottom AND the right edge (opposite staple side)... and the "V" develops over time for whatever chemical reasons or paper relaxing causes it to happen. Dont all new books have a very tight straight right edge? Much straighter than 50 year old comics? Obviously todays new books are made of different paper quality, so comparisons are worthless. But there are many mint 70s books that have been well preserved and protected that dont have significant Vs on the right, arent there?

 

It really makes little sense to trim the books while open and flat BEFORE folding in half as you would SURELY have the inside pages sticking out beyond the covers. I dont think that would be considered a neat, polished final product in the printing business. But it would certainly be acceptable is it was faster cheaper method of mass producing crappy ten cent kids pamphlets.

 

I wish I had the definitive order of manufacture of a typical 50s comic book! I understand printing techniques, but no experience on one of the huge web press machines they used, ones that start with unfolded 8-page signatures, fold and trim them, insert three more inside the first one, attach/staple a glossy cover that was printed 8 up too, and trim and fold and bale them 1000s at a time!

 

It is "bedsheet sized rolls of printer paper goes in one end, and bales of shiny comicbooks come out the other side -- like a segment on How Its Made!

[Aman619]

RE: the right edge having a V towards the top but not at the bottom? The top of the pages would generally be more exposed to the atmosphere than the bottom of the pages if they were stored vertically - and most seem to be in collector's boxes.

 

we are thinking alike here. and one possible reason for the difference top to bottom would be the direction of the guillotine cut. As it works its way across the comics/paper, the paper slides away from it, probably having to do with it being a more solid mass at first, but once already half cut free, the cutting edge loses its hold on the 2 foot deep pile of newsprint its working its way through.

 

These large scale guillotine cutters are a powerful hydraulic steel wedge thats forced through a thick pile of comics/paper under heavy pressure to keep it in place for the cutting. (frankly its only at this last moment that comics are "pressed" during creation... and its only incidental pressing as a control measure during the trimming as opposed to what we now refer to as pressing)

 

[VintageComics]

RE: the right edge having a V towards the top but not at the bottom? The top of the pages would generally be more exposed to the atmosphere than the bottom of the pages if they were stored vertically - and most seem to be in collector's boxes.

 

we are thinking alike here. and one possible reason for the difference top to bottom would be the direction of the guillotine cut.

 

That is another thought I had but forgot to add.

 

Very possible.