Insane press and flip Avengers 1.

[skypinkblu]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

 

It makes absolutely no sense for the V's to be formed by drying over time. They would never be even. If you look at the edges of the "V"s you can often see the machine marks and they are in set patterns. I was always told that the "V" or arrow was the result of the comic being folded at the spine, as well. The original sheets of paper were all the same size.

[VintageComics]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

 

It makes absolutely no sense for the V's to be formed by drying over time. They would never be even. If you look at the edges of the "V"s you can often see the machine marks and they are in set patterns. I was always told that the "V" or arrow was the result of the comic being folded at the spine, as well. The original sheets of paper were all the same size.

 

The cut marks go across both the first half of the pages as well as the second half of pages, and they are continuous and consistent across all pages, meaning that the cut had to have happened after the fold since they happen across all wraps. To me there is no question that they were cut after the comics was stapled and folded.

 

The shrinkage of paper is a real thing. I've spoken to conservators about it.

 

Wood shrinks as it dries and paper does too. In fact, most things shrink as they lose water content.

 

 

[skypinkblu]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

 

It makes absolutely no sense for the V's to be formed by drying over time. They would never be even. If you look at the edges of the "V"s you can often see the machine marks and they are in set patterns. I was always told that the "V" or arrow was the result of the comic being folded at the spine, as well. The original sheets of paper were all the same size.

 

The cut marks go across both the first half of the pages as well as the second half of pages, and they are continuous and consistent across all pages, meaning that the cut had to have happened after the fold since they happen across all wraps. To me there is no question that they were cut after the comics was stapled and folded.

 

The shrinkage of paper is a real thing. I've spoken to conservators about it.

 

Wood shrinks as it dries and paper does too. In fact, most things shrink as they lose water content.

 

 

I've had plenty of books with no staples, when I open the pages, and stack them, they are all even at the edges.

 

What conservators told you that? I'd love to call or email them and learn something.

 

BTW, I own and have owned MANY books (reading books) that are well over 60 years old, why don't they all have V's, if what you say occurs?

 

[VintageComics]

 

I've had plenty of books with no staples, when I open the pages, and stack them, they are all even at the edges.

 

What conservators told you that? I'd love to call or email them and learn something.

 

 

Sharon,

 

Golden Age books use different paper than Silver Age books, so GA books don't seem to have the same shrinkage problems.

 

DC used different paper than Marvel, so DC books don't have the same qualities as Marvels.

 

I was specifically talking about SA Marvel books when we were talking about shrinkage and not DC or Golden Age and I suppose I should have qualified that but didn't because when I think of a comic I naturally think of Marvel first.... but Marvel books do present the strongest case that they were cut after stapling and folding because of all the stuff mentioned above.

 

I find it difficult to believe that during the Silver Age DC and Marvel didn't print their books in exactly the same way as they were (to my understanding) printed on the same machines. Marvel used different paper and ink though.

 

I am assuming that Golden Age books were printed the same way but can't comment for sure on those as I haven't looked closely enough at them or know enough about them to be sure.

[skypinkblu]

 

I've had plenty of books with no staples, when I open the pages, and stack them, they are all even at the edges.

 

What conservators told you that? I'd love to call or email them and learn something.

 

 

Sharon,

 

Golden Age books use different paper than Silver Age books, so GA books don't seem to have the same shrinkage problems.

 

DC used different paper than Marvel, so DC books don't have the same qualities as Marvels.

 

I was specifically talking about SA Marvel books when we were talking about shrinkage and not DC or Golden Age and I suppose I should have qualified that but didn't because when I think of a comic I naturally think of Marvel first.... but Marvel books do present the strongest case that they were cut after stapling and folding because of all the stuff mentioned above.

 

I find it difficult to believe that during the Silver Age DC and Marvel didn't print their books in exactly the same way as they were (to my understanding) printed on the same machines. Marvel used different paper and ink though.

 

I am assuming that Golden Age books were printed the same way but can't comment for sure on those as I haven't looked closely enough at them or know enough about them to be sure.

 

I own plenty of Marvels, Roy...I also own some squarebounds from the 40's, World's Finest in particular. NO shrinkage at least no shrinkage that forms "V's.

 

In any case, I'd love to speak with the experts...I'm always eager to learn new things.

[VintageComics]

 

I own plenty of Marvels, Roy...I also own some squarebounds from the 40's, World's Finest in particular. NO shrinkage.

 

In any case, I'd love to speak with the experts...I'm always eager to learn new things.

 

When I get a chance, I'll take some pictures to show what I'm talking about.

 

As they say, a picture is better than 1000 words.

 

As I said, books from the 1940's may or may not be produced the same way as Silver Age Marvels. I think they were but am not sure.

 

 

In the meantime, you can probably talk to DiceX who worked for a publisher that printed comics and magazines, Tracey Heft or Matt Nelson.

 

You can also look at the edges of a SA Marvel with a loupe.

 

I got most of my information from Tracey and Dice and the comics themselves.

 

 

[buttock]

The 'v' on a GA book varies on all 3 sides.

 

On top, it's flush at the spine, then v's in at the right edge.

 

On the right, it v's out at the top, then goes flush at the bottom.

 

On the bottom, it v's out at the right edge, then back flush at the spine.

 

This is a torquing type of phenomenon, but is present on books stored flat their whole existence. It's not from shrinkage, or it would be even. I have yet to see one reasonable explanation for it.

 

I blame chupacabra.

[skypinkblu]

 

I own plenty of Marvels, Roy...I also own some squarebounds from the 40's, World's Finest in particular. NO shrinkage.

 

In any case, I'd love to speak with the experts...I'm always eager to learn new things.

 

When I get a chance, I'll take some pictures to show what I'm talking about.

 

As they say, a picture is better than 1000 words.

 

As I said, books from the 1940's may or may not be produced the same way as Silver Age Marvels. I think they were but am not sure.

 

 

In the meantime, you can probably talk to DiceX who worked for a publisher that printed comics and magazines, Tracey Heft or Matt Nelson.

 

You can also look at the edges of a SA Marvel with a loupe.

 

I got most of my information from Tracey and Dice and the comics themselves.

 

 

Actually, I attended a seminar in Chicago years ago, and I'm pretty sure you were there. Matt and Richard discussed restoration detection and one of the things that they both pointed out, was the way the books were cut and how the pages formed a V. they said to look for those missing V's as a sign of trimming. I had heard that years before...but they did a very good seminar...I took notes;)

 

As for Dice...I like Dice, but ...well, maybe he was discussing another kind of Shrinkage...the Seinfeld kind;)

 

Seriously, I have newsprint pads from the 60's, no shrinkage. Books are subject to different humidity, so they would not all "shrink" the same way...and the marks on the paper would appear if the paper were cut in a bundle, then fanned out, it doesn't mean they were cut at that edge...

 

In any case, I'm typing too much, tonight, enjoy the Con.

[rjpb]

From watching an old 1940s newsreel, apparently some if not all magazines were stacked and put in a three sided guillotine after being folded and stapled, in order to trim off the uneven edges, although pulp magazines typically had rough edges to the guts and cover overhangs, so clearly this wasn't a universal proposition.

 

Different rates of paper shrinkage due to stock would help explain the small cover overhangs found on many older comics.

 

I have noticed that even new comics printed on slick stock still have a slight v at the reading edge.

 

Something else to consider. Comics and magazines tend to "plump up" at the spine as a reaction from the paper resisting the fold. Assuming they are pressed by a heavy weight when stacked for shearing, it would make sense as they revert back to their more curved spines, that the outer pages pull back from just a tiny bit further than those closer to the staples.

[batman_fan]

 

As pages age they dry. As the pulp dries, the pages change size. In the case of comics, they fan with the inner most pages staying the freshest (widest) and the outermost pages drying out ending up the shortest.

 

When the book is folded back and front pages shorten in equal proportions creating an "arrowhead" shape (front pages fan towards the centre, back pages fan towards the centre).

 

If you shift the spine so that all of the pages are shortest to longest, they will all fan in one direction.

I am curious where these new research ideas are being presented. I was always told that the "v" or arrow shape of the edges of the pages of any given comic were simply the result of folding the comic at the spine. The pages are trimmed flat before the comic is folded in half. And because of the wraps between them, the outer wraps have to cover more territory so each successive wrap comes up a little shorter than wrap preceding it toward the centerfold. Thus the "v" was present at the time of manufacture.

 

This "drying contraction theorem" really has me intrigued. Did it also coalesce from the fertile minds that brought us the "apex of invisibility" surrounding the spine?

 

Mr B, using simple logic and statement of facts has no place on this message board.

[CBT]

Summary of my view on this:

 

1.) CGC can and does make mistakes when grading. Moving defects to the spine fold, or just on the edge of the back seem more likely to sneak them through.

 

2.) The process for doing this, is pressing the book completely flat while open, then picking a new spine "line" and making it via refolding and pressing again.

 

3.) To me, this is really just a PSR, Pressed-Spine Roll. That is to say, a flat (pressed) book with a misaligned spine rolled underneath prior to flattening.

 

4.) If people pay less for PQ, Miswrap/Misaligned printing, hopefully eventually people will just pay much less for books with the pages sticking out. If I was paying that kind of money for a 9.2, I'd want the right edge of the book to be as sharp as the left......

 

5.) as everyone has said, buy the book not the label.

[epowe10097]

Even after reading this thread, I still bid on a book by this Ebay seller. I pulled the trigger too fast and didn't pay enough attention to the top of the book. It looks like it applies to all that is being said here. I have asked for a bid retraction. I didn't tell him why as I wasn't sure if it was worth pointing him here. If he refuses and I win, I'll buy it as it is my own f'ing fault for bidding when running out the door.

[Straw-Man]

i'll bid on any book offered by this seller if i need it, i like it's look, and the price is right.

[VintageComics]

Mr B, using simple logic and statement of facts has no place on this message board.

 

There's always a small group of people who just like lobbing little comments from the sidelines but never really had anything substantial to the discussion. I'll take the high road here rather than get into a back and forth.

 

I'm on a mini vacation now so I'll take pictures next week to prove my point about comics being cut on 3 sides after they were folded...not that it will necessarily convince anyone. All the proof in the world is useless if someone has their minds made up about the messenger.

 

 

 

[MrBedrock]

Mr B, using simple logic and statement of facts has no place on this message board.

 

There's always a small group of people who just like lobbing little comments from the sidelines but never really had anything substantial to the discussion. I'll take the high road here rather than get into a back and forth.

 

I'm on a mini vacation now so I'll take pictures next week to prove my point about comics being cut on 3 sides after they were folded...not that it will necessarily convince anyone. All the proof in the world is useless if someone has their minds made up about the messenger.

 

 

On the opposite end of the spectrum there will always be folks who respond to every topic with long diatribes, made up "facts", and outlandish explanations, all in the hope of appearing knowledgeable. They usually will take the "high road" when called out or asked to explain.

[VintageComics]

Actually, I attended a seminar in Chicago years ago, and I'm pretty sure you were there. Matt and Richard discussed restoration detection and one of the things that they both pointed out, was the way the books were cut and how the pages formed a V. they said to look for those missing V's as a sign of trimming. I had heard that years before...but they did a very good seminar...I took notes;)

 

That seminar was actually partly my idea as I posited the idea to Bedrock and Matt as they were putitng it together.

 

I may have missed that portion of the seminar for 1 of 2 reasons -

 

a) I do remember that did step out during the seminar because I had something I had to take care of

b) I wasn't as interested in how to detect trimming at the time because I already had an idea of how to

 

As for Dice...I like Dice, but ...well, maybe he was discussing another kind of Shrinkage...the Seinfeld kind;)

 

Dice worked for a major printing/publishing corporation that printed and published magazines and comics. If I'm not mistaken he was actually involved with the printing and binding process. I think his experience would be invaluable.

 

 

Seriously, I have newsprint pads from the 60's, no shrinkage. Books are subject to different humidity, so they would not all "shrink" the same way...and the marks on the paper would appear if the paper were cut in a bundle, then fanned out, it doesn't mean they were cut at that edge...

 

Not all paper is made the same way, stored the same way or ages the same way.

 

If both the first half and second half of the wraps exhibit an identical and continuous pattern across all wraps then the cut must have happened after they were folded.

 

If the cut happened separately to the first (left) and second (right) half wraps and were folded after, the cut pattern wouldn't be identical across all wraps.

 

Like I said, I'll post pics when I get a chance.

[MrBedrock]

If drying pages have anything to do with a "v" on the edge of the pages then why do books from the Curator, Twin Cities, White Mountains, Church, Central Valleys, Crippens etc. pedigrees all have a v in equal measure to collections found in attics in the south?

[cheetah]

I've read some of this but not all. While I agree that the pressing in a new spine sucks, the real problem with this is that CGC failed to look at the book and account for the defects. I agree with RacerX that the 8.5 was a gift grade. The 9.2 was an abject failure of CGC's graders to detect not only the beginnings of Marvel chipping on the top edge, but the presence of a spine roll.

 

I've got a lot of GA books with spine rolls from someone rolling the cover back to read the book. I've also got plenty of books with stacking rolls where the spine of the book is shifted from the stack moving or twisting. Both of these defects deduct from the grade of the book, the former more so than the latter.

 

What I think this all comes down to is that CGC continues to use less and less experienced graders who have little or no comic book experience prior to coming to CGC. They miss things that even a moderately educated collector knows. I understand CGC hired Matt Nelson to reverse this trend but, really, how far down the hole is CGC going to go before they start being talked about in the same vein as PGX? This situation doesn't help in the least.

[VintageComics]

Mr B, using simple logic and statement of facts has no place on this message board.

 

There's always a small group of people who just like lobbing little comments from the sidelines but never really had anything substantial to the discussion. I'll take the high road here rather than get into a back and forth.

 

I'm on a mini vacation now so I'll take pictures next week to prove my point about comics being cut on 3 sides after they were folded...not that it will necessarily convince anyone. All the proof in the world is useless if someone has their minds made up about the messenger.

 

 

On the opposite end of the spectrum there will always be folks who respond to every topic with long diatribes, made up "facts", and outlandish explanations, all in the hope of appearing knowledgeable. They usually will take the "high road" when called out or asked to explain.

 

The explanation is simple to me - too many Silver Age Marvels have a continues cut pattern across all pages on all 3 sides to have been bound any other way. The only other theory is that the cut pattern was "matched" on left and right sides before the book was folded. Which one is more outlandish?

 

I'm basing my theory on stuff that was said or written by either Trace or Dice (both whom are more knowledgeable than me in that area) and by my own observations.

 

I don't have a problem with admitting I was wrong if there is evidence to support it and I certainly don't need to make fun of anyone I disagree with in an effort to support my side of the discussion.

[VintageComics]

If drying pages have anything to do with a "v" on the edge of the pages then why do books from the Curator, Twin Cities, White Mountains, Church, Central Valleys, Crippens etc. pedigrees all have a v in equal measure to collections found in attics in the south?

 

Good question. Is it possible that pulp naturally dries over time no matter how well it's stored and that very few copies are actually subjected to storage conditions that prevent sinkage? They may not be the ideal conditions that we collectors think are ideal. Could it be that very humid environments prevent that shrinkage? I have no idea as I am just thinking aloud as you guys are and exploring options.

 

I can also ask one: How do books that are not trimmed still have no "V" on the edge?