Follow up response from Steve Borock

[Foolkiller]

I've been told by Steve in the past that if they saw a book that was "crushed" it would also get PLOD'd -- if that's wrong, he can correct me, but that's certainly my recollection.

[nearmint]

I don't have anymore knowledge of the scanning system than anyone else that read Steve's initial post. I responded to yours because you described the idea of CGC starting a scanning system as "throwing us a bone", when that's exactly what many board members have been screaming for for quite some time. It's hardly throwing us a bone.

 

So why didn't you answer MY questions? What exactly do you expect from CGC? 100% accuracy? Where else in life do you get that?

 

If you don't expect 100%, what's an acceptable level to gain your trust?

 

You're happy about a scanning system but you dont know what it does, then you get angry at me for not being thrilled about it. Thats funny

 

I dont expect perfection, but I do expect an organization whose credibility in the hobby depends on being seen as one that is committed to identifying restoration to approach this problem with more gusto. I dont expect to be called 'paranoid' by the head of that organization when restored books turn up in blue holders. I expect to be at least told: We're going to put our considerable resources, expertise, and knowledge into combatting this restoration that is sending chills through the hobby. I at least expect that.

 

Obviously I expect too much, the writing on the wall was there when CGC invited restorers into their midst and gave pressing the green light.

 

Duncan, do you even read my posts before you respond? I never said I was happy about the scanning system. Nor did I say that you should be thrilled about it. For the third time, I only said that it's inaccurate to refer to it as "throwing us a bone" when it's exactly what many board members have been asking for. Is it enough? Absolutely not. But it's way beyond throwing us a bone.

 

I'm glad to hear that you don't expect CGC to be 100% accurate. But I'm confused why you then bring up the subjects of resto and pressing, neither of which have anything to do with trimming, which is destruction.

 

It's my understanding that when CGC recognizes a new technique to disguise trimming, they figure out how it was done so they can, to the best of their ability, spot it in future submissions. This happened with the process used to trim the Batman #11, and it's now happening with the process used to trim JE's books. From my perspective, that IS putting their considerable resources, expertise and knowledge into combatting the destructive practice of trimming.

 

Again, is it enough? No. But it's a start.

[Rip]

I've been told by Steve in the past that if they saw a book that was "crushed" it would also get PLOD'd -- if that's wrong, he can correct me, but that's certainly my recollection.

To my knowledge CGC has NEVER PLOD'ed a book for just pressing. This has been talked about on the boards quite a bit. (Aside from being disassembled) But I'll be happy to double check with Steve.

[originalisbest]

Just 'cause I feel like repeating myself - the notion of scans to detect possible trimming is super, though of course not at all practical for every book, I would imagine. If the "new style" of trimming which fooled CGC for a while, but apparently may not now fool them, is not disseminated into the arena of public knowledge, it's going to absolutely crush collectors' confidence in all manner of high grade items (shy of them being lucky enough to personally discover untouched bundled stacks or warehouse items shelved since 1969, etc.)

 

They'd better make clear just HOW they are able to detect such trimming, and what it looks like - other than comparing to past scans of the same book - or else I foresee a whole lotta Ewert "works of art" just being deslabbed and sold raw to the unsuspecting - who might not recognize the trimming - until they send it in. If they do.

[Foolkiller]

my question would be what's the devaluation of a book if it is just crushed then? is it factored in the grade? anyway, i'm not sure it would change that much of what i've said if they don't PLOD a crushed book... but it would change my theory on this issue.

[nearmint]

my question would be what's the devaluation of a book if it is just crushed then? is it factored in the grade? anyway, i'm not sure it would change that much of what i've said if they don't PLOD a crushed book... but it would change my theory on this issue.

 

My understanding is that they downgrade the book for the defects that result from an amateur press job, not for the pressing itself. Amateur pressing might result in popped staples, a split spine, etc. CGC downgrades for those defects as they would if the defects were present for any other reason.

[duncan36]

I'm glad to hear that you don't expect CGC to be 100% accurate. But I'm confused why you then bring up the subjects of resto and pressing, neither of which have anything to do with trimming, which is destruction.

 

To me pressing is restoration, its artificially changing a book to increase its grade. This could go back and forth and we wont agree. Lets just say more hobbyists agree with my view, and more people in it for the money agree with your view. Not an attack on you, just the way it is.

 

Lets not beat around the bush a lot of money wanted pressing to be allowed so it happened. And that does matter because it establishes a pattern of money dictating CGC and thereby dictating to the hobby. That is important.

 

Is that pattern being repeated now we know the market is flooded with trimmed books? Perhaps this trimming could be detected but a way to aggressively detect it isnt being pursued because the money is sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars of trimmed books?

 

I dont know, I wish we had more expert opinions and restorers to chime in about the possibile ways to detect this type of trimming. Is it detectable under a microscope? But more importantly is the will there at CGC to find it?

[trevorlsmith]

Lets not beat around the bush a lot of money wanted pressing to be allowed so it happened. And that does matter because it establishes a pattern of money dictating CGC and thereby dictating to the hobby. That is important.

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but a big part of the reason that cgc takes the position that pressing is not restoration (or at least does not note pressing on the label) is that it is so difficult to detect. It's sort of a compromise due to uncontrollable realities.

[duncan36]

I have some thoughts about pressing but for the sake of the discussion I'll end it here as I feel it takes away from the discussion at hand.

[BronzeBruce13]

Brian… you and I have reached the same conclusion.

 

I'm of the opinion that Steve, Mark and Paul… and the rest of the CGC crew are certainly good people with good intentions. I'm personally convinced they care about the hobby beyond it being a job (wouldn't you have to… to grade comics 40-50 hours a week under this kind of regular scrutiny). IMHO, the CGC service has made a positive difference in the hobby solving (or greatly reducing) many problems that existed before their inception. Unfortunately, part of the trade-off is that the process created some new ones too. I suppose those of us (myself included) that pretty much expected "smooth sailing" all they way, were just a bit too naive and did not consider the history and evolution of the other graded markets enough.

 

Over the past 5 years, many of us have had a chance to get to know the employees of CGC very well. We've dined, drank and talked comics together (in person and on the boards) and as a result many of us have come to consider them friends. Coupled with the opportunity for new friendships, the increased buzz & energy, and the renewed collecting passion that CGC has brought to the hobby directly and indirectly… I think some of us lost sight of the reality of the business aspect of the hobby and CGC. The reality is Steve, Mark, Paul and crew are employed by a large grading company (CCG) that required them to follow a precise business plan based on the their experience running others. I don't know this as fact, but I've come to believe from various conversations that CGC has only recently turned a modest annual profit, which forgives 4 years of loss and start-up fees. CGC had to be designed to be profitable at some point so its my feeling that CCG (before CGC's inception) arrived at the conclusion that "pressing" had already been performed on a high percentage of books, was something that could not be detected with enough accuracy, and also provided an opportunity for the market to play the "upgrade game" later on as awareness and majority acceptance of the process was achieved. Was this an evil, insidious plot?… or simply the cold hard "trade-off" necessary to bring professional grading to comics by a company that wanted to make money. I believe CGC employees were faced with these question and decided the trade-off was simply worth the up-side and signed on. I would agree it was/is. In a perfect world, I wish that no comics were modified in any way, and I bet just about everyone feels that way, BUT we're not in a perfect world and where there's money involved, the actions of the greedy and unethical threaten to ruin the experience for those of us that enjoy it.

 

The "You Wart" fiasco has brought many of us to a crossroads where we are faced with some cold in-your-face realities. At the end of the day each collector has to decide a few things…

 

1. if they expected "too much" from CGC or "not enough" and what that means going forward.

 

2. Are they more comfortable with CGC in the market or would they prefer relying on their own abilities to detect restoration.

 

3. Can you still enjoy collecting CGC and/or raw comic with the knowledge that CGC is a business that will not cut their own throats and answer questions we would prefer answered.… or not.

 

For me, I think I expected "too much" partially based on ignorance… and partially because I was enjoying collecting again so much and the new friendships I developed. I would have to vote that I'm more comfortable with CGC in the marketplace as opposed to not. Of course, my collecting preference dictates that to an extent. I simply would not have the confidence to buy much more than reading material otherwise. Lastly, right now I'm not thrilled with everything that's happened and what's not been shared by CGC with us, but I'm at that "realization point" I described above an am digesting what this means to me. At this point I'm still trying to acquire books I covet.

 

For 2006… I'm hoping that the new scanning technology that CGC will be bringing aboard will improve their service going forward in terms of identifying restoration at an even higher percentage. From what I know of it, its simply awesome. I also am hoping that we as a collecting community continue to take on some of the responsibility of policing our own hobby. We need to keep the momentum up in a positive manner and flex our strength with wisdom and with realistic expectation.

[awe4one]

Jim, I think you'll find that Chris started offering pressing and resto removal services to select clients before 'leaving' CGC.

 

But if you think they're going to confirm that little nugget at this rather low moment, you're going to be disappointed.

 

Maybe but it's a critical question that needs answering. If Friesen was indeed offering resto or pressing services while still the resident resto expert on staff, isn't that a cause for immediate termination? Steve has continuely harped on the fact that all CGC employees couldn't deal in comics or benefit whatsoever from CGC's service. If CGC were turning a blind eye to Friesen's outside work while still working for the company, what other practices are they playing blind to? And if they truly didn't know and it becomes a fact later on, isn't that a cause for termination as well?

 

This whole situation has evolved well past a simple dealer trimming comics in my eyes. Something smells rotten in CGCland and every "cut and run" statement by Steve just furthers my opinion that the clouds over the company are getting darker and respect for collectors is an afterthought...

 

The refusal to provide certification numbers to protect collectors, all in the name of confidentiality, is idiotic and insulting to collectors. Everyone knows who the submitter is so any confidentiality is blown. Saying you'll relook at Ewert slabs only works if the collector bought the comic directly from Jason. In our selling environment of quickly flipped comics this policy doesn't work. CGC made the error but it's the collectors who have to make the determination whether their comic originated from a scammer? Even when CGC has that info readily available and could easily provide it to comicdom? I feel sorry for any collector who buys HG slabs in this "you make the call" environment. I'm willing to bet there are deals being made yesterday by dealers to rid themselves of JE slabs to unsuspecting buyers who in the long run will be screwed not only by the dirtbag dealer but this policy as well.

 

Sure...we could take the opinions expressed here and either accept CGC for what they are or get the hell out. But when collectors are summarily getting screwed by dealers, and a partner in the fiasco is all talk with little tangible action or information to help the situation despite their position to help alleviate the situation greatly, it burns me up and makes me even more determined to get to the bottom of this cesspool of corruption.

 

And saying information needs to be withheld because of possible litigation against Ewert doesn't fly with me as well. From where I'm looking, CGC has a very weak case. Ewert used the service and got what he paid for. Unless there's a strict policy that all resto has to be admitted upon submission, Ewert did nothing wrong in regards to using CGC. CGC missed the trimming and it's on them to fix the situation with comicdom. To date, they've done little other than spin control and comments to date strengthens my guess they hoped this situation would lessen in severity over time. They are gravely wrong and need to change their tactics immediately if any shred of respectibility can be salvaged. In my opinion, it may already be too late...

 

Jim

[Flaming_Telepath]

If CGC were turning a blind eye to Friesen's outside work while still working for the company

 

Who said he was necessarily doing the work 'outside' of CGC?

[drbanner]

Regardless of my feelings on pressing, the idea was to get people to accept pressing as a technique, and to put pressed books onto the market. In order to do this, CGC has to adopt the official policy of pressing is not restoration. Allegedly, pressing is offered to “select” customers, and not made available to the public, nor disclosed to them. After some time, and certain dealers engaging in this practice, a new company is announced: Friesen is leaving CGC to start his own business, pressing services included. And who would you go to? The guy who works down the hall from CGC, or Matt Nelson or Tracey Heft? Even if there is no collusion, the company is clearly banking on the fact that there will be some perception of a helpful grade or insider knowledge in the marketing of their product. Is their guy THAT much better? Doubtful. But pressing IS a profitable service, and when you combine it with grading, you get a profitable product. And one that will turn a profit on a yearly basis.

 

Yep, and if one's position is that (pressing = restoration) and the rumors are true (CGC/Chris offering pressing services to select customers while employed at CGC), then basically CGC was restoring books in-house, certifying them in blue labels without any notation of the restoration, and knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books. Since CGC has chosen not to address these rumors, one must assume that they are true. Hopefully one of the "chosen ones" will provide a 1st-hand account of this activity...but of course they probably fear being removed from Chris's little black book and are hesitant to speak up which is why we haven't heard from them either.

[nik]

(pressing = restoration) and the rumors are true (CGC/Chris offering pressing services to select customers while employed at CGC), then basically CGC was restoring books in-house, certifying them in blue labels without any notation of the restoration,

 

If this rumor ends up being a reality, it ends the fact that CGC is impartial, and shatters any trust I have/had in their services.

 

Now I'm just a small time collector so in their eyes I dont mean a thing, but, I have sumbitted over 1k books in the last 3 years and if/when others like myself feel like they have been deceived and start to feel the same way, eventually numbers add up.

[drbanner]

(pressing = restoration) and the rumors are true (CGC/Chris offering pressing services to select customers while employed at CGC), then basically CGC was restoring books in-house, certifying them in blue labels without any notation of the restoration,

 

If this rumor ends up being a reality, it ends the fact that CGC is impartial, and shatters any trust I have/had in their services.

 

Now I'm just a small time collector so in their eyes I dont mean a thing, but, I have sumbitted over 1k books in the last 3 years and if/when others like myself feel like they have been deceived and start to feel the same way, eventually numbers add up.

 

I'm in the same boat...or is it more of a life raft?

[nik]

.... yeah, and its sinking pretty fast

[nearmint]

Yep, and if one's position is that (pressing = restoration) and the rumors are true (CGC/Chris offering pressing services to select customers while employed at CGC), then basically CGC was restoring books in-house, certifying them in blue labels without any notation of the restoration, and knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books.

 

I have no idea what Chris was or wasn't doing, but let's say the scenario you present was actually happening. How could CGC have been "knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books" when they've always stated that pressing is not resto, and that professionally pressed books will receive universal labels?

 

You begin by saying "if one's position is that pressing=restoration", but that viewpoint is contrary to CGC's publicly stated point of view. To expect them to act according to someone else's beliefs, unless they publicly state a change in their business model, doesn't make sense.

[skybolt]

Yep, and if one's position is that (pressing = restoration) and the rumors are true (CGC/Chris offering pressing services to select customers while employed at CGC), then basically CGC was restoring books in-house, certifying them in blue labels without any notation of the restoration, and knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books.

 

I have no idea what Chris was or wasn't doing, but let's say the scenario you present was actually happening. How could CGC have been "knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books" when they've always stated that pressing is not resto, and that professionally pressed books will receive universal labels?

 

You begin by saying "if one's position is that pressing=restoration", but that viewpoint is contrary to CGC's publicly stated point of view. To expect them to act according to someone else's beliefs, unless they publicly state a change in their business model, doesn't make sense.

 

For example, it's a lot different for someone to state that they're not against abortion, than to actually perform the act themselves, and in secrecy.

 

Up until this point, I just viewed CGC's stance as merely an opinion. However, their overall approach to this subject seems to have deeper roots.

[nik]

I disagree. The question comes down to morals and ethics. Regardless of what CGC considers pressing to be resto or not, this isnt the point.

The point is we are supposed to be on the same playing field when we submit books for grading, none of this special privilaged BS if you're a buddy of Chris or not.

 

How the hell are they(CGC) being impartial if they are catering to select clients in order to maufactor higher grades.

[nearmint]

I disagree. The question comes down to morals and ethics. Regardless of what CGC considers pressing to be resto or not, this isnt the point.

The point is we are supposed to be on the same playing field when we submit books for grading, none of this special privilaged BS if you're a buddy of Chris or not.

 

How the hell are they(CGC) being impartial if they are catering to select clients in order to maufactor higher grades.

 

I agree that it sucks that Chris was offering services of any kind to select clients only, and yes we should all be on a level playing field, but Banner's point was that if Chris was pressing books and CGC was putting them in blue labels, that that was deceptive to anyone who purchased those books.

 

I disagree. No one has ever been lead to believe that pressed books would receive a PLOD.