Follow up response from Steve Borock

[COI]

Life Lesson#137-Only a loser talks of self-preservation.Cockroaches survive,big deal. Given a choce,I'll be a dead duck over being a live cockroach.

AK-You talk as if Steve and his crew have no choice. Either serve the evil empire or their families starve.Somehow,they managed to thrive in the pre-CGC days and could easily thrive as ex-CGC employees,should they choose. Thrive,not survive.

 

I love this kind of tough, uncompromising talk, because it's pure Bu**s**t. Anyone here who knows me, knows of my integrity, and I've "thrived" quite well in my life. First you survive, then you thrive. First you breathe, then you eat, then you find a roof to lay your head under. When you have all those things, then you go out and "thrive". They go together. If some guy had a gun to your head and told you to either suck his d**k or die, all the dignity you have, and all the "thriving" you've done would be tossed out the window, and you'd make like a hoover without hesitation. And if you tell me you wouldn't, you're either mentally ill/suicidal, have never truly faced a life threatening situation, or are just full of it. Plus, it's easy to make statements like "I'd rather be a dead duck than a cockroach" since those kinds of statements can't really be put to the test. It's a nice ideology, it makes you sound big and bad, but it goes against the instincts we have for survival.

 

If I lost my business, could I move on? Yes. If the CGC graders lost their jobs, could they move on? Yes. That dosen't mean they won't fight to keep what they've got, or do what it takes to hang on.

[duncan36]

I'm just amazed at how they're not even trying to conceal their black hat now. I guess thats what happens when you deal in the dark for too long you assume everyones like you. The fact that CGCs rep couldnt even make it sound like he was on our side and was devoting all his resources to fixing this issue is astounding.

[skybolt]

I had also heard from Marc Schrueder, who said he did not trim the books or sell books to Jason. The problem with that is that Marc has had a bad history with CGC and because he lied to us in the past and has been banned from CGC (I asked him to leave the hobby and, as far as I know, he did), how could we believe him now.

 

So then he is the one that trimmed the Batman 11 eh?

 

 

after reading FFB's last post, i'm now confused as there does appear to have been 3 prior folks banned before Jason. yet, i'm pretty sure steve alluded to a singular banning before Jason???

 

I don't think Steve made a typo when he said 2 people including Ewert are banned as Tom Brulato posted,

"I have been told by the CGC that Jason is now the second person to ever be banned from submitting comics to them for allegedly trying to use their company to defraud comic buyers and sellers."

 

We now know for sure that Steve banned both Ewert and Schroeder. However, could the Batman #11 trimmer been only banned from submitting for other collectors? After all, a few months ago Steve did mention that Dupcek could still submit his own books, just not for others. I took that to mean that he wasn't utterly banned from submitting like Ewert is today.

[skybolt]

Great post Red Hook,

 

So let's put this whole scenario in perspective (if it's true). Someone like Jason sends in a batch of books to be graded. 10 out of the 20 books submitted are potential pressing candidates. They are sent to Chris F. for additional pressing to enhance the grade. Books are then returned to CGC 2 weeks later and graded at separate times from the rest of the batch.

 

The problem I have with this scenario is that CGC's official expert restoration checker has these trimmed books in hand while pressing them. Therefore, if he missed the trimming like everyone else, then the 6 to 9 month gap would not correspond to him leaving. Plus, would the other resto checkers have become more lacks in checking these books, since CGC's expert resto detector had already handled them? So many questions.

 

Skybolt;

 

If this scenario is true, I am absolutely NOT surprised that Chris would have missed the trimming on the books. Chris is being contracted in this case to perform additional pressing and/or other undetectable restoration activities on a book in order to upgrade a book. He is not being contracted to perform restoration detection on the book.

 

I believe that Chris may spot some of the more obvious restoration work on a book simply by handling them. When it comes to trimming or minor shaving, however, I think this is much much more tougher and he would have to be specifically looking for it, and something which he was not contracted to perform in this case.

 

Even if he does spot some restoration work, I am not sure if Chris would be passing this information onto CGC. After all, in this particular scenario of yours, is Chris not being contracted to perform undetectable restoration activities on the book as opposed to detecting it.

 

I agree with your post.

 

I was basically trying to find a loop hole in CGC's resto check system over the past 6 to 9 months (or longer for that matter). For instance, can someone with a CGC society membership check the grading dates for all the VIA submissions within the past year? I want to find out which sets of books were caught with more trimming practice. The first batch that was graded immediately by CGC, or the second batch that may have been sent for additional pressing work and received back 2 or 3 weeks later.

 

If all the trimmed books (including the Showcase #30 book) were only caught with first batch, then that leads me to believe that the second batch wasn't checked properly. Maybe the timeframe for returning the books was a factor in moving these books quickly when they came from pressing, or maybe CGC's resto checkers just automatically assumed that Chris F. would catch (even if by accident) some of the trimming work while spending 10/20 odd minutes pressing a book.

 

I'm not saying that any of above scenarios are remotely true, but if someone can check and conclude that all other submissions (excluding the FF3 one of course) were graded at the same time, and if not, trimming was found in both batches, then we can at least eliminate this bad scenario from our list.

[drbanner]

3-4 month turnaround time is utterly ridiculous.

 

Thank goodness right now the TAT is the best it has been in years...close to the "estimated" 2 month TAT on econs!

[UnDeadChihuahua-migration]

Who is CGC protecting by not releasing the certification numbers?

 

Themselves.

 

There are hundreds (possibly thousands) of questionable books, now owned by dozens (possibly hundreds) of different individuals.

 

Publishing a list of certification numbers would instantly devalue all of these books, causing financial damage to the owners. Wouldn't that open CGC up to legal liability from all of the owners? Wouldn't it also make a lot more people aware of this problem and make a lot more people reconsider slabbed books?

 

(If I am off-base on this, perhaps one of the lawyers on the board could post.)

[drbanner]

I personally do think Steve has the best of the hobby in mind.

This is beginng to get old. Who cares if Steve or anyone else for that matter at CGC has the "best of the hobby in mind".

 

A - The context of this whole "Steve cares about what's best for the hobby..." discussion is in response to COI saying that Steve didn't care about what's best for the hobby, not "Steve cares about what's best for the hobby, so let's give him/CGC a pass." The scent of blood in the water has caused a feeding frenzy by the circling sharks and things are getting lost in the discussion...

 

However, it appears COI has now retracted his rather harsh and judgemental statement, and has subsequently commented that Steve really does care about what's best for the hobby, which is a position I think everyone here that knows Steve (or has any common sense) would agree with...

[nearmint]

If Mark Haspel, Paul Litch, or I were ever told or asked to change a grade for anyone, not just Jim Halperin, we would decline immediately. Not only that, but we would quit if we were ever asked a second time.

 

COI, while I agree that Steve is not revealing all that he knows, and may never, I absolutely believe the above statement. It's certainly not unprecedented for employees in any industry to resign for ethical reasons, and I firmly believe that Steve, Mark, Paul, and West are capable of making such a move if asked to cross any line that they're uncomfortable with.

 

I'm not saying they'd thrive as a result, but they'd certainly land on their feet.

[COI]

owever, it appears COI has now retracted his rather harsh and judgemental statement, and has subsequently commented that Steve really does care about what's best for the hobby, which is a position I think everyone here that knows Steve (or has any common sense) would agree with...

 

 

I perfer "clarified" to "retracted", but whatever makes you guys feel better.....

[arexcrooke]

I personally do think Steve has the best of the hobby in mind.

This is beginng to get old. Who cares if Steve or anyone else for that matter at CGC has the "best of the hobby in mind".

 

A - The context of this whole "Steve cares about what's best for the hobby..." discussion is in response to COI saying that Steve didn't care about what's best for the hobby, not "Steve cares about what's best for the hobby, so let's give him/CGC a pass." The scent of blood in the water has caused a feeding frenzy by the circling sharks and things are getting lost in the discussion...

 

However, it appears COI has now retracted his rather harsh and judgemental statement, and has subsequently commented that Steve really does care about what's best for the hobby, which is a position I think everyone here that knows Steve (or has any common sense) would agree with...

M-

this line has been trotted out so much that i feel it is being used as a crutch to prop these goings on up on.

From what I have heard, Steve is a stand-up guy. Great! However, let me repeat again what Red and others have been trying to get across:

It's not about the trust in Steve. Its about the trust in CGC, and that trust is wanning faster than a beer at a college keg party.

[COI]

COI, while I agree that Steve is not revealing all that he knows, and may never, I absolutely believe the above statement. It's certainly not unprecedented for employees in any industry to resign for ethical reasons, and I firmly believe that Steve, Mark, Paul, and West are capable of making such a move if asked to cross any line that they're uncomfortable with.

 

I can agree with that. The original intent of my post was simply to say what you said above; Steve is not revealing all he knows, cannot reveal all he knows, and will never reveal all he knows. The problem is, my post came off a lot harsher than I intended, as it was not an attack on Steve B personally, just a commentary on the lack of information we have recieved. I said several times that I would probably do the same in his position.

[duncan36]

Its about business once you get over the initial shock. CGC and Borock recognize theres a problem with this new breed of trimming. They sat around and discussed their position and what they were willing to spend to offer remedies to us their customers.

 

They came up with a bone in the form of being able to detect trims on previously submitted books using a scanning system.

 

That isnt enough for me as a customer. I demand more from CGC. I believe with considerable effort and an outlay of money they can do a consistent and quality job at detecting this kind of restoration. Restoration detection is their raison'd'etre in my mind, and if they cant assure me of their credibility in that area they're useless to me.

 

I'm sure others will disagree with me, and to many making money off CGC is more important than detecting restoration. I'm not going to get high and mighty and condemn anyone. Its all business not personal, and as of now I will not be doing any with CGC. This stance is the best one to initiate change for those who want it.

[Aman619]

I for one have been more interested in CGCs grading and in determining how reliable it is rather than the restoration check. I like the status quo where we have one grading authority across the board rather than every dealer and collector with their own grade for every book. So of course, the quality and acuracy of the CGC grade is paramount in importance. From what I have seen to date, I am not completely satisfied with their consistency. Yet overall it is a better deal than before, when every dealer wasnt exactly reliable either (or 'independent')

 

As for restoration check, well, Ive never believed they were anywhere near 100%. Its much more difficult to spot. Sure, color touch is easy fro someone who knows what to look for, and is set up to really look closely enough on all books. But many kinds of expert resto can be overlooked, given the vaguaries of comics production methods.

 

You know, this whole discussion makes me sad, disgusted and tired. Tired of comics too. I still scan all the sites looking for upgrades, cool books to fill holes in my runs, or keys at attractive prices. But Im not buying. Its not the same right now. It sucks.

[garthgantu]

But you may also see a few devious types also buying these books with the idea of cracking and resubbing when CGC won't have such a watchful eye on these particular books. Hopefully they are taking scans now as we speak.

 

The very idea that CGC's 'eye' has a 'watchfulness setting' that varies over time is disturbing. It also implies that this new type of trimming can best be caught through vigilance rather than any scientific method; again, disturbing. Add to this the fact that grading in general is subjective, and perhaps the final call on many possibly restored books is a subjective decision.

 

Until CGC provides a lot more disclosure on how/why it deems certain processes to be restoration, and how it makes the final determination on whether a book has been restored, and how it can stay one step ahead of the obviously innovative restorers populating our hobby (rather than a step or two behind), I don't think CGC should make any hard claims about its restoration detection service. The only hard claim they can make is "we can be absolutely sure some books have been pressed, because they're coming over the transom from the IHOP next door." Everything else is vague promises and hollow assurances at this point.

[nearmint]

They came up with a bone in the form of being able to detect trims on previously submitted books using a scanning system.

 

That isnt enough for me as a customer. I demand more from CGC. I believe with considerable effort and an outlay of money they can do a consistent and quality job at detecting this kind of restoration. Restoration detection is their raison'd'etre in my mind, and if they cant assure me of their credibility in that area they're useless to me.

 

They're throwing us a bone by initiating a scanning system? That's EXACTLY what many board members have been screaming for for months now.

 

Does CGC have to catch resto 100% of the time in order for them to have credibility in your mind? Can anyone in your life give you a 100% assurance of anything?

 

What exactly are you asking for here?

[duncan36]

Well I have an image of what this scanning system entails, but its possible I could be incorrect in that.

 

From what I can gather it will be a way to see if a previously submitted book has been trimmed and then resubmitted.

 

I also understand that this system will do nothing to help detect trimming on books that have not previously been submitted to CGC. Just trying to flesh out this scanning system as very little was said about it in Borocks initial post.

[sterlingcomics]

I still have one significant problem with all of this. The fact is, there was nothing systemically in place at CGC to ward against this type of fraud being perpetrated.

 

Especially since the data supports the trend of increased restored book detection towards the end.

[drbanner]

It's not about the trust in Steve.

 

It is when people say "Steve doesn't care about the hobby, and only about the almighty $$..." but now that that position has been clarified ( ), the point is moot.

 

However dissatisfied I am with CGC's lack of response to the "Was Friesen pressing/fixing/unrestoring books while employed at CGC...", that won't preclude me from speaking up when I feel fellow hobbyists are being unfairly attacked.

[sfilosa]

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It's not about the trust in Steve.

 

 

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It is when people say "Steve doesn't care about the hobby, and only about the almighty $$..." but now that that position has been clarified ( ), the point is moot.

 

Which was exactly why I said COI's inference was "stupid". Since he has now clarified his position, I would like to amend my comment. Instead of "stupid" I'll say semi-moronic.

[COI]

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It's not about the trust in Steve.

 

 

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It is when people say "Steve doesn't care about the hobby, and only about the almighty $$..." but now that that position has been clarified ( ), the point is moot.

 

Which was exactly why I said COI's inference was "stupid". Since he has now clarified his position, I would like to amend my comment. Instead of "stupid" I'll say semi-moronic.

 

You Bastich........