Follow up response from Steve Borock

[QuasarComics]

Thanks. Yeah, your are right that it is used by a lots of folks and does not, in and of itself mean much. For me, when I add that, it is simply to state that based on what I know of Steve, my personal faith in him is not yet shaken. We will see how things turn out over time.

 

I could be foolishly naive. I like to think that Steve is "battling within the belly of the beast" and will come out victorious with his integrity intact and a much more open and honest CGC. Yet, when one combines this stuff with what is happening on the numismatic side of the house with the major grading service, it does seem to be an incestuous world. This is probably caused by the fact that these "markets" are really very very shallow when compared to typical “investment grade” markets and to top that, they are built on very subjective qualities of esthetic desirability with no intrinsic worth to the world economy. . And, in my "sky is falling" sense, I wonder how this this can be kept from the eyes of the investors that have more money than sense.

[lou_fine]

Here's the facts:

 

1) CGC (and many, many collectors and dealers) have NEVER THOUGHT PRESSING was restoration. Therefore if anyone did press a book, THEY DIDN'T CARE!!!!!!!! Just because other people do, doesn't mean they have to change their opinion, nor disclose it..

 

Actually it may not be a fact that many, many collectors have never thought pressing was restoration. That just may be an educated guess based on the circle of collectors that you know. The circle of collectors (pure collectors) that I engage all think that pressing is restoration.

 

Steve F;

 

This is actually a very astute observation here by Harvey on the controversial issue of pressing.

 

I have yet to meet any of my fellow collectors in real life who feels that pressing is not restoration. This includes every single shop owner of the LCS's in the city which I go to. Every collector I talked to in real life were completely surprised at this revelation, or considered this to be proof that the whole CGC thing was nothing more than just a big joke or farce, with perpetration of fraud as the main goal of this whole exercise.

 

In fact, the only place where I have heard that pressing is not restoration is by CGC and some of the forum members and dealers on this board here. Absolutely nowhere else in the real comic collecting world.

[arexcrooke]

I have yet to meet any of my fellow collectors in real life who feels that pressing is not restoration. This includes every single shop owner of the LCS's in the city which I go to. Every collector I talked to in real life were completely surprised at this revelation, or considered this to be proof that the whole CGC thing was nothing more than just a big joke or farce, with perpetration of fraud as the main goal of this whole exercise.

But we are not the BSD's or CGC that tell us what is and is not correct in this hobby that they controll but let us be involved in in exchange for our $$$.

[Forbush-Man]

"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."

 

A rule to be taken to heart!

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

We are not perfect, we are human, and once in awhile something is going to get past us. Even with that, we are the best and safest insurance policy this hobby has ever seen. The graders are a group of hobbyists working very hard to make our hobby better for the reader, collector, seller, and investor. The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.

 

After reading through ALL the posts on the FF3 thread, the two CGC response threads, and all the related threads, I still have one significant problem with all of this. The fact is, there was nothing systemically in place at CGC to ward against this type of fraud being perpetrated.

 

I'm not talking about the detection of trimming, which if the one published Ewert submission is any indication of, CGC WAS able to detect with some regularity. I'm talking about the fact that there was nothing in place to investigate why a certain percentage of a Charter Member-Dealer's submissions were found to be Trimmed.

 

No red lights going off...no warning bells. Somehow, the fact that some books with Trimming were caught should give me reassurance in the CGC product? Why? CGC never bothered to connect the dots. Never bothered to investigate. And why would it? As terribly stressful and disheartening this whole thing must be to guys like Steve B and Mark H, I'm pretty confident those that crunch the numbers at CCG were upset at having to kill the golden goose (Ewert) in the form of a lifetime ban.

 

As for this new scanning technology, I'm unconvinced its going to do much good unless there is a policy in place to investigate those submitters who are trying to push through multiple books with trimming, and take immediate PROACTIVE action, and not let the members of your message boards be the policing agency you claim to be. The fact that there is NO mention of this incident or of the policy changes being implemented on the CGC website makes me feel like we are being appeased, and that this dirty little secret need not go much further.

[BassGMan]

I personally do think Steve has the best of the hobby in mind.

This is beginng to get old. Who cares if Steve or anyone else for that matter at CGC has the "best of the hobby in mind".

As Red says, "it's not about Steve" it is about CGC and the mistakes that have been made. It is about fraud being commited. It is about that fraud not being given full disclosure. It is about we, as members of this hobby and consumers of CGC's product being given some [embarrassing lack of self control]'nbull explanation. It is about us being patronized, both in the official CGC statements (all two of them) and by people who can not seem to pull their head out of the sand and see that things have not been explained enough. It is about transparnecy about these dealings. It is about transparency about who, what, when, where, how PCS operates. It is about these things, and unless CGC starts to understand these things, the questions that are being asked will continue to be asked. "Aspersions" will continue to be cast and CGC's credibility will continue to be questioned no matter what the CGC apologists and acolytes may hope to think or hope to tell us what to think.

 

Well, as COI already stated:

 

"Take everything that has happened, go into self-preservation mode, and adjust your hobby accordingly."

 

What more really needs to be said?

This is the comics world as we know it. It includes people like Ewert, a grading company like CGC (for better or worse) and people that will continue to pay astronomical prices for HG slabs. Adjust your own involvment in the hobby accordingly.

[Red Hook]

 

"Take everything that has happened, go into self-preservation mode, and adjust your hobby accordingly."

 

What more really needs to be said?

This is the comics world as we know it. It includes people like Ewert, a grading company like CGC (for better or worse) and people that will continue to pay astronomical prices for HG slabs. Adjust your own involvment in the hobby accordingly.

 

Sorry, Sid, but it's exactly that type of passive approach that will guarantee the perpetuation of the current state of things, and it will only encourage the next Ewert to start revving up the machine.

 

I don't buy that approach at all. I say let's get to the bottom of it once and for all, and then start fresh.

[RS]

Warren Buffett speaks on CGC:

 

• "There seems to be some perverse human characteristic that likes to make easy things difficult."

 

• "It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."

 

• "Chains of habit are too light to be felt until they are too heavy to be broken."

 

• "Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked."

 

Red

 

PS As I recall, Buffett has been called in several times to help out companies that have had scandals brewing, including Solomon Brothers and American Express.

 

 

Brad did you forget the lawsuit Buffet Vs CGC

 

 

[Rip]

30%... says who??

 

The rumor mill...I can't vouch for the numbers but they are out there being circulated. That's why CGC would benefit themselves and collectors by releasing firm numbers in place of general, vague info...

 

Jim

 

Well all I can say is, I find rumors of hundreds of tainted slabs most disturbing.

IF this is true, then I think its best that the information gets out there as soon as possible. And its should come from CGC.

Because collectors WILL find out.

[COI]

AK,

Have you ever met Steve B. or Mark? Had a conversation with them?I'm curious because you make statements like "he is not concerned about the hobby",and 'he's not concerned about you".

Seems like might bold accustions,so I'm curious what you are basing them on.

Have you met them and determined that they are phonies? Or is it just your experiance that anyone that works for a big company has sold out and is just in it for a paycheck?

It appears that having made your decision to get out of the CGC market,you need to justify it by attacking both it and anyone who hasn't seen the light.

Can you give one iota of evidence that Steve doesn't care about the hobby?That Mark has lost his passion for our hobby and now is concerned only about collecting a paycheck?

Attacking CGC is fine and they have a lot to answer for,without a doubt. But that really doesn't excuse making uninformed statements about good people that have been in our hobby for many,many years.

 

I don't feel the need to "justify" anything. I got out of buying and selling CGC before this Ewert stuff came to light, and I didn't really mention it. And I certainly wasn't bashing CGC, or suggesting anyone bail out. But now, considering all that has happened, I'm shocked to see that there are still apologists out there. Any objective/logical person, looking at all the issues surrounding CGC, would find them to be an unwise investment at this current time(on the high end of the grading spectrum, or on very expensive books).

 

As for Steve and Mark; I have met Steve, but that was a while back(before I joined these boards). As I've said, I do think that he's a good guy, and I certainly don't think he would intentionally do anything to hurt the hobby. Mark, I've never met.

 

So, do I think Steve cares about this hobby? Yes. Do I think he has a passion for it? Yes. However, at the current time his back is against the wall, because CGC is against the wall. He is working for a corporation, and while that dosen't automatically make him a sellout, it does put him between a rock, and a hard place. And again, I'm sure he LOVES this hobby, but like the rest of us, he's got priorities. And I would wager that the welfare of this hobby, while it may be important to him, ranks BELOW keeping his career intact, and putting food on the table for his daughter. This is common sense to me, and I don't understand why this seems hard for some of you to swallow. There's a difference between self-preservation, and selfishness, and I'm merely suggesting that Steve has to take the self-preservation route at this point. As a result, I wouldn't be depending on him for definitive answers, because he can't give them to you. He may WANT to give them to you, but his hands are tied.

 

Look, I'm just calling it as I see it. Maybe it seems harsh, but when it comes to business, I take the kid's gloves off. I've been self-employed since high school, I have meetings with lots of business owners and CEO's whom I sell product to, and I've seen how low the corporate world will sink to inorder to protect their own [embarrassing lack of self control]e$. So, you can call my posts harsh, jaded, or uninformed, but to me this is reality. And as much as I love this hobby, if I had built a comic business/career on hard work and honesty, but a situation came up that was out of my control and threatened to tear down all my hard work, you bet your that I would prioritize my own well-being and the well-being of the people that I care about, over a bunch of funnybooks. Heck, I'd burn down this hobby before I let the actions of the corrupt destroy my livelyhood. The comic industry is not social/charity work, and it's not a "noble calling" that people devote or sacrifice their lives to. It's a business, and more than that, it's a business that serves no purpose other than providing entertainment to people with disposable(or credit based ) income. Hardly a noble pursuit, and not one where I expect to see feats of self-sacrifice for the greater good.

[BassGMan]

 

"Take everything that has happened, go into self-preservation mode, and adjust your hobby accordingly."

 

What more really needs to be said?

This is the comics world as we know it. It includes people like Ewert, a grading company like CGC (for better or worse) and people that will continue to pay astronomical prices for HG slabs. Adjust your own involvment in the hobby accordingly.

 

Sorry, Sid, but it's exactly that type of passive approach that will guarantee the perpetuation of the current state of things, and it will only encourage the next Ewert to start revving up the machine.

 

I don't buy that approach at all. I say let's get to the bottom of it once and for all, and then start fresh.

 

Red, I never said cease to move forward with the investigation and don't worry about bringing the guilty parties to justice. I am just stating that knowing everything that we know about what is involved in this hobby, adjust your own collecting and buying accordingly. What would possibly make you think I am being passive about this? The way I have "adjusted accordingly" is to not always take CGC's opinion of a lack of resto as fact (although still a very good opinion) and it has even further cemented in my mind how ridiculous the prices of high grade slabs have become. HG slabs were never "my thing", and now I know they never will be in the future either. Just too dangerous out there to trust my money with such fragile and possibly manipulated books.

[COI]

I personally do think Steve has the best of the hobby in mind.

This is beginng to get old. Who cares if Steve or anyone else for that matter at CGC has the "best of the hobby in mind".

As Red says, "it's not about Steve" it is about CGC and the mistakes that have been made. It is about fraud being commited. It is about that fraud not being given full disclosure. It is about we, as members of this hobby and consumers of CGC's product being given some [embarrassing lack of self control]'nbull explanation. It is about us being patronized, both in the official CGC statements (all two of them) and by people who can not seem to pull their head out of the sand and see that things have not been explained enough. It is about transparnecy about these dealings. It is about transparency about who, what, when, where, how PCS operates. It is about these things, and unless CGC starts to understand these things, the questions that are being asked will continue to be asked. "Aspersions" will continue to be cast and CGC's credibility will continue to be questioned no matter what the CGC apologists and acolytes may hope to think or hope to tell us what to think.

 

Well, as COI already stated:

 

"Take everything that has happened, go into self-preservation mode, and adjust your hobby accordingly."

 

What more really needs to be said?

This is the comics world as we know it. It includes people like Ewert, a grading company like CGC (for better or worse) and people that will continue to pay astronomical prices for HG slabs. Adjust your own involvment in the hobby accordingly.

 

Exactly, Sid. I'm glad some of you understood the point of my post.

[Red Hook]

 

Red, I never said cease to move forward with the investigation and don't worry about bringing the guilty parties to justice. I am just stating that knowing everything that we know about what is involved in this hobby, adjust your own collecting and buying accordingly. What would possibly make you think I am being passive about this? The way I have "adjusted accordingly" is to not always take CGC's opinion of a lack of resto as fact (although still a very good opinion) and it has even further cemented in my mind how ridiculous the prices of high grade slabs have become. HG slabs were never "my thing", and now I know they never will be in the future either. Just too dangerous out there to trust my money with such fragile and possibly manipulated books.

 

Okay, I understand. I felt when you said..."What more needs to be said?", you meant backing off on digging deeper for the truth of all this.

 

Red

[batman_fan]

I am the only one that is a little concerned with the free CGC inspection of Ewert inspected books? How confident is everyone in CGCs ability to do this? If they are unsure of whether a book was trimmed are they going to error on the conservative side? I am just curious because this could be a great way to swap cert numbers without really removing the trimmed books.

[BassGMan]

I am the only one that is a little concerned with the free CGC inspection of Ewert inspected books? How confident is everyone in CGCs ability to do this? If they are unsure of whether a book was trimmed are they going to error on the conservative side? I am just curious because this could be a great way to swap cert numbers without really removing the trimmed books.

 

When those newly PLODed JE trimmed books are put on the market, watch for who buys them. I may be one if I can buy some DCs for 35% guide. But you may also see a few devious types also buying these books with the idea of cracking and resubbing when CGC won't have such a watchful eye on these particular books. Hopefully they are taking scans now as we speak.

[VintageComics]

I am the only one that is a little concerned with the free CGC inspection of Ewert inspected books? How confident is everyone in CGCs ability to do this? If they are unsure of whether a book was trimmed are they going to error on the conservative side? I am just curious because this could be a great way to swap cert numbers without really removing the trimmed books.

 

When those newly PLODed JE trimmed books are put on the market, watch for who buys them. I may be one if I can buy some DCs for 35% guide. But you may also see a few devious types also buying these books with the idea of cracking and resubbing when CGC won't have such a watchful eye on these particular books. Hopefully they are taking scans now as we speak.

 

Can't wait to get my hands on a discounted copy of GL #76 9.6!!!!!!

[FFB]

Sounds like exactly the same thing that happened to the Pay Copy of Marvel Comics #1. Graded VF 84 by the Sotheby's committee in the 1990s (and apparently much lower than that in the 1970s when it was discovered), and then was graded VF/NM 9.0 by CGC.

 

I am now witnessing a MM 1 originally graded VF+, now a VF/NM.

 

What you are witnessing is called "market grading". The best way to view this is to look at what has happened with grading in numismatics (coins). I'll use one example, from memory, that can be easily verified (I may be off slightly here but not much):

 

The "King of Coins", an 1804 silver dollar was originally graded back in the late 1980s or early 1990s by one of the two big services (PCGS or NGC) as an XF 40 and now, after a few "slab upgrades back and forth" is now an AU 55. This is the equivalent of a VF 8.0 comic going to, at least, VFNM 9.0 and more probably NM- 9.2, Take a look at this post that talks about this:

------------------------------

http://www.talkaboutcollecting.com/group/rec.collecting.coins/messages/599504.html

 

Re: NGC grades Garrett 1804 silver dollar

by Michael Benveniste <mhb-offer@ > Feb 21, 2005 at 03:19 PM

 

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:45:21 -0500, "Richard L Hall"

<richlh0@

> wrote:

 

>Market grading! We all know the typical XF-40 1804 dollar is worth an

AU-55

>price.

 

*sigh* Since anyone interesting in buying this coin already knows

what it is and isn't, any numeric grade is pretty much meaningless

in market terms. The same is true of the King of Siam set, which

also seems to get better with age.

 

But I wonder if PCGS and NGC realize that this appearance of grade

inflation undercuts their credibility on those coins where grades

which _do_ matter.

---------------------------------------

 

As time goes on, and people see the comics that "should grade higher than the slab", many will resub these and, eventually the accepted "wear and tear for a grade" will become compromised. That is, the market (meaning the average "investor" not necessarily the collector) will come to expect lower quality at any given grade point.

 

This is obviously unacceptable in the long run and devalues the whole idea of certified grading. Eventually, I hope some of these companies realize that offering grading that does not change over time is the only way to go. The only way for this to happen is for collectors to become educated so this fits right back into do oyur home work and “buy the coin not the slab”. OF course, with comics, there are more unknowns that can be concealed in a slab when compared to coins…

 

And yes, this is a hard problem to combat, even for the companies doing the grading, since there will always be "mistakes" of up to a half grade or so in any direction.

 

So, it is perhaps too soon to tell with CGC since it has not been around as long and the MM1 did not change by even a half grade but it is something to be concerned about.

[shadroch]

Life Lesson#137-Only a loser talks of self-preservation.Cockroaches survive,big deal. Given a choce,I'll be a dead duck over being a live cockroach.

AK-You talk as if Steve and his crew have no choice. Either serve the evil empire or their families starve.Somehow,they managed to thrive in the pre-CGC days and could easily thrive as ex-CGC employees,should they choose. Thrive,not survive.

[duncan36]

We're told that: "No matter how good we get, someone will always try new ways to get things past us, that’s what dishonest people do. But like a friend told me, “When you build your first mouse trap, someone is going to try and eventually figure out how to get past that trap, so you need to build a better trap.” That is what we are going to do"

 

What a crummy paragraph. This company has millions of dollars that they should direct towards restoring confidence that CGC is the authority at detecting restoration. Most would settle for a politically correct, 'We're going to do our very best to detect this new kind of restoration'. The above paragraph shows to me just how out of touch and arbitrary CGC has become. And dont insult us anymore by telling us it cant be done and you're doing your best, we live in the midst of amazing technological innovations. It can and should be done.

 

Many here are very well aware of what your statement here means. If you think its a positive for your company or the hobby you are wrong. This is the end for many of us. If you believed otherwise it just shows how out of touch and uncaring about the foot soldiers in this hobby you have become.

[Silver Surfer]

We're told that: "No matter how good we get, someone will always try new ways to get things past us, that’s what dishonest people do. But like a friend told me, “When you build your first mouse trap, someone is going to try and eventually figure out how to get past that trap, so you need to build a better trap.” That is what we are going to do"

 

What a crummy paragraph. This company has millions of dollars that they should direct towards restoring confidence that CGC is the authority at detecting restoration. Most would settle for a politically correct, 'We're going to do our very best to detect this new kind of restoration'. The above paragraph shows to me just how out of touch and arbitrary CGC has become. And dont insult us anymore by telling us it cant be done and you're doing your best, we live in the midst of amazing technological innovations. It can and should be done.

 

Many here are very well aware of what your statement here means. If you think its a positive for your company or the hobby you are wrong. This is the end for many of us. If you believed otherwise it just shows how out of touch and uncaring about the foot soldiers in this hobby you have become.

 

What do you expect when they are more concerned about volume and fees, jamming these through the system and then on to the next book. 3-4 month turnaround time is utterly ridiculous.