Follow up response from Steve Borock

[skybolt]

I disagree. The question comes down to morals and ethics. Regardless of what CGC considers pressing to be resto or not, this isnt the point.

The point is we are supposed to be on the same playing field when we submit books for grading, none of this special privilaged BS if you're a buddy of Chris or not.

 

How the hell are they(CGC) being impartial if they are catering to select clients in order to maufactor higher grades.

 

I agree. Plus, having this service being only available to the select few, is a self fullfilling prophecy. How many of these special dealers would use this service if books like that 8.5 copy of GS X-Men #1 were consistently coming back from pressing as 8.5's (instead of the generous 9.2 grade given).

 

For instance, let's say Jason or someone else submitted 100 books for grading, and 30 of them were set aside as potential pressing candidates. If only 2 of them gained higher grades after the submitter paid hundreds of dollars for this service, then next time they'll say screw this. However, by guaranteeing a higher grade, you're assured of return business.

 

Now I'm not saying that this is the case by any means, but if CGC stays quiet and lets these allegations go further, then everyone will suffer the consequences.

[nearmint]

However, by guaranteeing a higher grade, you're assured of return business.

 

That's a completely different ball game. This is the first time I've heard anyone suggest that CGC was guaranteeing a higher grade.

 

Obviously, that would be reprehensible. But you're taking a big leap suggesting that with no evidence to back it up.

[drbanner]

Yep, and if one's position is that (pressing = restoration) and the rumors are true (CGC/Chris offering pressing services to select customers while employed at CGC), then basically CGC was restoring books in-house, certifying them in blue labels without any notation of the restoration, and knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books.

 

I have no idea what Chris was or wasn't doing, but let's say the scenario you present was actually happening. How could CGC have been "knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books" when they've always stated that pressing is not resto, and that professionally pressed books will receive universal labels?

 

You begin by saying "if one's position is that pressing=restoration", but that viewpoint is contrary to CGC's publicly stated point of view. To expect them to act according to someone else's beliefs, unless they publicly state a change in their business model, doesn't make sense.

 

I was following up on FK's comment by pointing out that if one's opinion (not CGC's) is that pressing = restoration, and CGC was indeed pressing books in-house but not telling you (giving those books blue labels), then from your perspective, CGC was most certainly an active participant in deceiving you.

 

Let's say you owned one of these books and held the position that pressing = resto and later found out it had been through "the process", would you feel deceived and betrayed by CGC? Of course!

[skybolt]

However, by guaranteeing a higher grade, you're assured of return business.

 

That's a completely different ball game. This is the first time I've heard anyone suggest that CGC was guaranteeing a higher grade.

 

Obviously, that would be reprehensible. But you're taking a big leap suggesting that with no evidence to back it up.

 

I'm not saying that's the case by any means, but these are the type of statements that will be made if CGC remains silent on the issue. Do I believe something like this is taking place, no I don't, but am I subconciously thinking it, yes.

[Foolkiller]

I doubt CGC was guaranteeing anything of the sort. They were relying on pressing in and of itself being able to raise a grade. If it did, it did. The issue is that people are going to make the assumption they will do better with the CGC service, especially when some of the people at CGC are badmouthing their competitors like Matt Nelson. Thus, it's tough to tell where the line is. They'd never be foolish enough to outright tell someone, we can raise the grade. These things always go down much more subtly. In this case -- it's only necessary to press the books to see whether or not the whole system will eventually have a high enough success rate for people to submit their books for pressing -- if it wasn't, it wouldn't be worth it for CCG to start a business that engages in that.

[nearmint]

Yep, and if one's position is that (pressing = restoration) and the rumors are true (CGC/Chris offering pressing services to select customers while employed at CGC), then basically CGC was restoring books in-house, certifying them in blue labels without any notation of the restoration, and knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books.

 

I have no idea what Chris was or wasn't doing, but let's say the scenario you present was actually happening. How could CGC have been "knowingly and actively deceiving everyone who ever bought one of these books" when they've always stated that pressing is not resto, and that professionally pressed books will receive universal labels?

 

You begin by saying "if one's position is that pressing=restoration", but that viewpoint is contrary to CGC's publicly stated point of view. To expect them to act according to someone else's beliefs, unless they publicly state a change in their business model, doesn't make sense.

 

I was following up on FK's comment by pointing out that if one's opinion (not CGC's) is that pressing = restoration, and CGC was indeed pressing books in-house but not telling you (giving those books blue labels), then from your perspective, CGC was most certainly an active participant in deceiving you.

 

Let's say you owned one of these books and held the position that pressing = resto and later found out it had been through "the process", would you feel deceived and betrayed by CGC? Of course!

 

No, I would not feel deceived and betrayed by CGC, because I know they don't PLOD pressed books.

[Red Hook]

I've sat on this for a year. It comes from a board member in very high standing. That is all I am going to say. Don't kill the messenger. If my intention was to harm CGC, then this would have been old news. If the author of this chooses to ID himself, that's up to him. About half a dozen board members know about this. It's a bombshell, but somethings gotta give at this point...and I'm not posting this without a lot of trepidation, but CGC has had as many opportunites as possible to address this before. I stand behind my source on this.

 

Brad Hamann / Red Hook

 

From an email received by me on September 27, 2004:

 

 

 

 

Hey Brad,

 

Although I do hold a high degree of esteem for people like yourself on the boards, and have no reason to call into question your integrity, I would appreciate if you don't mention my name should you feel compelled to leak this out to the public.

 

I found out that Chris Friesen (CGC's restoration guy) is doing pre-screening and pressing for select few dealers.  The service has been offered to me, at which point I was able to confirm the validity of the information.  I was appalled, and in many ways left bewildered that a company of CGC's stature would show such weakness at a peak moment in the evolution of third-party grading.  I can't begin to imagine how out-of-hand this has already gotten, especially with the Ewarts/Brulato's inventory, Heritage, Metropolis, and a few others I'm not at liberty to discuss -- as well as how out of hand things might get should this market take a nosedive, from the point of view of opportunism and exploring other ways to feed profit-laden appetities in our hobbies marketplace during the drought.

 

Here is the process as I have come to understand it.  Chris only accepts submissions through dealers who he trusts and knows.  The dealer fronts the pre-screen submission, sometimes doing a preliminary analysis of whether or not the book could eke out a grade improvement.  The customer is told that if the pre-screener makes a final determination that the book cannot be improved by pressing, they don't have to pay anything more than a reholdering fee (if the book has already been slabbed as the examinar would have to crack it open to make a determination) and the shipping .

 

In a nutshell, the whole scenario sucks.  I'm at work right now, and I don't have a great deal of time to discuss this in depth.  Suffice it to say that I believe that this information would send a shockwave through the industry should this information ever leak out. 

 

I would encourage the author of the email to step up to the plate and sign his name to this, as this is as important a moment in the hobby as I can think of. I take no pleasure in this post.

[drbanner]

The point is we are supposed to be on the same playing field when we submit books for grading, none of this special privilaged BS if you're a buddy of Chris or not. How the hell are they(CGC) being impartial if they are catering to select clients in order to maufactor higher grades.

 

I agree that it sucks that Chris was offering services of any kind to select clients only, and yes we should all be on a level playing field.

 

Forgot to comment on this...yes, if the rumors are true, then that's pretty pathetic that CGC's buddies got this sweet inside where they basically "fixed up" books for them, and not anyone else.

 

I don't have too many problems with CGC, but this one is a biggie...would be nice to hear the real story from someone that knows the real story.

[nearmint]

I doubt CGC was guaranteeing anything of the sort. They were relying on pressing in and of itself being able to raise a grade. If it did, it did. The issue is that people are going to make the assumption they will do better with the CGC service, especially when some of the people at CGC are badmouthing their competitors like Matt Nelson. Thus, it's tough to tell where the line is. They'd never be foolish enough to outright tell someone, we can raise the grade. These things always go down much more subtly. In this case -- it's only necessary to press the books to see whether or not the whole system will eventually have a high enough success rate for people to submit their books for pressing -- if it wasn't, it wouldn't be worth it for CCG to start a business that engages in that.

 

I agree.

 

Who's been bad-mouthing Matt?

[Foolkiller]

when I sat down with Steve in Baltimore, he mentioned his disappointment with Matt Nelson because his work had deteriorated lately and that the press jobs were no longer that good. As I recall the context, it was also in reference for why CGC was needed and came from his belief that this was something CGC could help prevent from happening.

[Darthdiesel]

dropping bombs... how likely is your source to come out and face the music? Just curious but has anyone ever asked CGC reps at con booths for their grading opinions on books they were thinking of submitting? Has anyone ever been offered to have their book pressed if they were interested in having it done in order to attempt to raise the grade?

[Shield]

I've sat on this for a year. It comes from a board member in very high standing. That is all I am going to say. Don't kill the messenger. If my intention was to harm CGC, then this would have been old news. If the author of this chooses to ID himself, that's up to him. About half a dozen board members know about this. It's a bombshell, but somethings gotta give at this point...and I'm not posting this without a lot of trepidation, but CGC has had as many opportunites as possible to address this before. I stand behind my source on this.

 

Brad Hamann / Red Hook

 

From an email received by me on September 27, 2004:

 

 

 

 

Hey Brad,

 

Although I do hold a high degree of esteem for people like yourself on the boards, and have no reason to call into question your integrity, I would appreciate if you don't mention my name should you feel compelled to leak this out to the public.

 

I found out that Chris Friesen (CGC's restoration guy) is doing pre-screening and pressing for select few dealers.  The service has been offered to me, at which point I was able to confirm the validity of the information.  I was appalled, and in many ways left bewildered that a company of CGC's stature would show such weakness at a peak moment in the evolution of third-party grading.  I can't begin to imagine how out-of-hand this has already gotten, especially with the Ewarts/Brulato's inventory, Heritage, Metropolis, and a few others I'm not at liberty to discuss -- as well as how out of hand things might get should this market take a nosedive, from the point of view of opportunism and exploring other ways to feed profit-laden appetities in our hobbies marketplace during the drought.

 

Here is the process as I have come to understand it.  Chris only accepts submissions through dealers who he trusts and knows.  The dealer fronts the pre-screen submission, sometimes doing a preliminary analysis of whether or not the book could eke out a grade improvement.  The customer is told that if the pre-screener makes a final determination that the book cannot be improved by pressing, they don't have to pay anything more than a reholdering fee (if the book has already been slabbed as the examinar would have to crack it open to make a determination) and the shipping .

 

In a nutshell, the whole scenario sucks.  I'm at work right now, and I don't have a great deal of time to discuss this in depth.  Suffice it to say that I believe that this information would send a shockwave through the industry should this information ever leak out. 

 

I would encourage the author of the email to step up to the plate and sign his name to this, as this is as important a moment in the hobby as I can think of. I take no pleasure in this post.

 

[sterlingcomics]

I would encourage the author of the email to step up to the plate and sign his name to this, as this is as important a moment in the hobby as I can think of. I take no pleasure in this post.

 

[sfilosa]

I don't think this is bomb at all (and I'm not the author).

 

As long as CGC doesn't guaranty a higher grade, what difference would it make if Chris or anyone else there said, "pressing might help the book"?

 

It's not like you can't get graders notes. If a books a CGC 9.4 and the graders notes say "small non-color breaking corner crease", you could infer that book would be a good pressing candidate.

 

It seems to me that everyone gets up in arms because Chris has decided that only a few people could use his service, like there was no one else who could do pressing. But I have NEVER, EVER heard that CGC (or Chris or any other professional) guaranty a better grade.

[Foolkiller]

But I have NEVER, EVER heard that CGC (or Chris or any other professional) guaranty a better grade.

 

again, I agree with this.

[mica]

But I have NEVER, EVER heard that CGC (or Chris or any other professional) guaranty a better grade.

 

again, I agree with this.

Perhaps the word Guaranty is not needed. I think we can all see where it would be in the best interest of a company that is providing that service to have a "certain" end result. No up-front guaranty would be needed, necessary, or mentioned.

[nik]

Sfilosa, I like reading your posts as they usually make alot of sense.

 

My questions are pretty simple.

 

1 Why cant CGC either confirm or deny this rumor and put it rest?

 

2 They claim pressing cannot be 100% of the time be detected, but yet it is done right under their noses, by their own guy do you see a problem here? or is it just me

[sfilosa]

Sfilosa, I like reading your posts as they usually make alot of sense.

 

My questions are pretty simple.

 

1 Why cant CGC either confirm or deny this rumor and put it rest?

 

2 They claim pressing cannot be 100% of the time be detected, but yet it is done right under their noses, by their own guy do you see a problem here? or is it just me

 

 

1. I don't know why they wouldn't confirm of deny this rumor, I don't speak for them.

 

2. CGC (Steve Borock and I believe others) don't believe PRESSING is Restoration (i.e. PLOD, or anything that needs to be disclosed) REGARDLESS if they know about it or not. He has made that clear several times. I don't believe even if they knew a book was pressed, they would mention it in the graders notes. I know I've called for graders notes many times and never heard that a book was pressed.

 

Obviously, that's not everyone elses opinion, but that's CGC's and I hate to say this for the tenth time, but it is what it is.

[nearmint]

Sfilosa, I like reading your posts as they usually make alot of sense.

 

My questions are pretty simple.

 

1 Why cant CGC either confirm or deny this rumor and put it rest?

 

2 They claim pressing cannot be 100% of the time be detected, but yet it is done right under their noses, by their own guy do you see a problem here? or is it just me

 

 

1. I don't know why they wouldn't confirm of deny this rumor, I don't speak for them.

 

2. CGC (Steve Borock and I believe others) don't believe PRESSING is Restoration (i.e. PLOD, or anything that needs to be disclosed) REGARDLESS if they know about it or not. He has made that clear several times. I don't believe even if they knew a book was pressed, they would mention it in the graders notes. I know I've called for graders notes many times and never heard that a book was pressed.

 

Obviously, that's not everyone elses opinion, but that's CGC's and I hate to say this for the tenth time, but it is what it is.

 

[nearmint]

I don't think this is bomb at all (and I'm not the author).

 

As long as CGC doesn't guaranty a higher grade, what difference would it make if Chris or anyone else there said, "pressing might help the book"?

 

It's not like you can't get graders notes. If a books a CGC 9.4 and the graders notes say "small non-color breaking corner crease", you could infer that book would be a good pressing candidate.

 

It seems to me that everyone gets up in arms because Chris has decided that only a few people could use his service, like there was no one else who could do pressing. But I have NEVER, EVER heard that CGC (or Chris or any other professional) guaranty a better grade.

 

I agree here as well. Red's post would have been a bombshell had it been released a year ago, but we've known for almost that long now that Chris was setting up his own shingle under the CCG umbrella. It shouldn't shock anyone that pressing is part of his services.

 

It's disappointing that this may have been going on while Chris was still working for CGC, but again, not the bombshell it would have been a year ago.