Follow up response from Steve Borock

[divad]

My point being that CGC is not some great cash cow,nor do I think it ever will be.

While some of its employees most likely make a vey nice living,the owners of the company could have done better investing in t-bills back in '98.

 

A "cash cow" is a business that generates a high amount of gross revenue, at low operating costs . . .

[Ze-man]

Sounds to me like you're daring WoogieMan to pull up their Schedule C's!

 

 

You dont know what you are talking about.

 

I do.

[mrwoogieman]

Sounds to me like you're daring WoogieMan to pull up their Schedule C's!

 

 

You dont know what you are talking about.

 

I do.

 

And to talk about it in a way of saying, "Well, isn't it okay," and being reasonable about it when you don't know and I do, I think that you should be a little bit more responsible in knowing what it is.

[VintageComics]

My point being that CGC is not some great cash cow,nor do I think it ever will be.

While some of its employees most likely make a vey nice living,the owners of the company could have done better investing in t-bills back in '98.

 

A "cash cow" is a business that generates a high amount of gross revenue, at low operating costs . . .

 

Like this

 

CASH COW

[Ze-man]

Sounds to me like you're daring WoogieMan to pull up their Schedule C's!

 

 

You dont know what you are talking about.

 

I do.

 

And to talk about it in a way of saying, "Well, isn't it okay," and being reasonable about it when you don't know and I do, I think that you should be a little bit more responsible in knowing what it is.

 

 

 

, somebody throw a bucket of water on me and Woogs.. we dont need another 15 pages of Tom Cruise ..do we?

 

 

 

P.S Woogs.

You're Glib

[UnDeadChihuahua-migration]

". . .pressing does not change the comic's composition. When you're buying a used car, do you say to the guy, 'Hey, did you wash this?' " says Mr. Borock.

The analogy of pressing=car washing does not logically follow. Pressing would be more akin to pounding out visible dents. Washing a vehicle prior to sale is more equiv. to putting a comic in a shiney 2 mil mylar and halfback prior to sale. What we now need is the equivalent of a CARFAX report.

 

Exactly. If a car is wrecked and the dents are removed, the question "Was this car ever in an accident" is still a valid question. (And a potential buyer should have this information.)

[lou_fine]

". . .pressing does not change the comic's composition. When you're buying a used car, do you say to the guy, 'Hey, did you wash this?' " says Mr. Borock.

The analogy of pressing=car washing does not logically follow. Pressing would be more akin to pounding out visible dents. Washing a vehicle prior to sale is more equiv. to putting a comic in a shiney 2 mil mylar and halfback prior to sale. What we now need is the equivalent of a CARFAX report.

 

Exactly. If a car is wrecked and the dents are removed, the question "Was this car ever in an accident" is still a valid question. (And a potential buyer should have this information.)

 

Yes, exactly right!!!

 

I find it totally amazing that Steve would make such a senseless analogy since it is nothing more than comparing apples and oranges.

 

Either way, washing a car prior to selling would be more equivalent to aqueous cleaning of a comic book prior to sale which is still a no-no in CGC's eyes.

 

If Steve feels that his car anology is justification for allowing pressing, does this mean that trimming and colour touch will now be allowed on comic books. After all, wouldn't mowing the lawn prior to selling your house be equivalent to trimming your comic book prior to a sale. Wouldn't painting your house prior to a sale be equivalent to colour touching your comic book prior to a sale.

 

After all, when you are buying a used house, are you going to say to the guy, "Hey, did you mow the lawn and paint the house?"

[PovertyRow]

Either way, washing a car prior to selling would be more equivalent to aqueous cleaning of a comic book prior to sale which is still a no-no in CGC's eyes.

 

It wouldn;t because an aqueous wash penetrates the entire comic book, and can alter the structure of the book and even its dimensions if not properly dried.

[lou_fine]

The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.

 

No matter how good we get, someone will always try new ways to get things past us, that’s what dishonest people do. But like a friend told me, “When you build your first mouse trap, someone is going to try and eventually figure out how to get past that trap, so you need to build a better trap.” That is what we are going to do. With the help of some people we know, it looks as if we are going to have a special scanning process that will allow us to match up comics to a scan within seconds. This will be costly and hurt our re-submissions, but it will protect the buyer and seller and help CGC “build a better mousetrap”.

 

Steve;

 

Sounds great that you are about to put in a scanning process to catch all the trimmed books. Still going to be pretty hard to spot the trimming with the scans though, especially for the books that may have only been shaved by 1/64 or 1/32 of an centremetre.

 

What's going to happen, however, when your scanning system catches all of the newly pressed books, which should now be clearly obvious by just taking a cursory look at the scans? Doesn't do much for your old argument that pressing is not considered to be restoration since CGC cannot detect artificial restoration.

 

Sounds like the scanning system will now make it easier to detect pressing, even more so than trimming.

[drbanner]

Doesn't do much for your old argument that pressing is not considered to be restoration since CGC cannot detect artificial restoration.

 

Steve has never said that CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration because they cannot detect it...

[esquirecomics]

Doesn't do much for your old argument that pressing is not considered to be restoration since CGC cannot detect artificial restoration.

 

Steve has never said that CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration because they cannot detect it...

 

I am fairly confident, though I haven't looked back through old posts, that in fact he absolutely has. This was, to be fair, not the only reason cited for the policy decision, but it was cited.

 

If I am wrong, Steve should of course correct me.

 

Without a doubt though, many people have cited this as a specific reason underlying their view on the subject.

[marvelcollector]

The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.

 

I don't know what this means...it wasn't caught now either....

Seven years ago it couldn't be caught...not even with before and after scans...the way it was caught now..?

[nearmint]

The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.

 

I don't know what this means...it wasn't caught now either....

Seven years ago it couldn't be caught...not even with before and after scans...the way it was caught now..?

 

I believe he's saying that if the trimming had been done seven years ago, we wouldn't have been able to catch it today. Meaning, we wouldn't have the Heritage scan to compare it to, and any physical evidence of the trimming would have aged and become undetectable.

[Silver Surfer]

Doesn't do much for your old argument that pressing is not considered to be restoration since CGC cannot detect artificial restoration.

 

Steve has never said that CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration because they cannot detect it...

 

I am fairly confident, though I haven't looked back through old posts, that in fact he absolutely has. This was, to be fair, not the only reason cited for the policy decision, but it was cited.

 

If I am wrong, Steve should of course correct me.

 

Without a doubt though, many people have cited this as a specific reason underlying their view on the subject.

 

I believe you are correct because West/Timely jumped in and used the same arguement to support him.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.

 

I don't know what this means...it wasn't caught now either....

Seven years ago it couldn't be caught...not even with before and after scans...the way it was caught now..?

 

I believe he's saying that if the trimming had been done seven years ago, we wouldn't have been able to catch it today. Meaning, we wouldn't have the Heritage scan to compare it to, and any physical evidence of the trimming would have aged and become undetectable.

 

I thought the seven year reference was to when CGC came into being, no?

[slab_em-migration]

The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.

 

I don't know what this means...it wasn't caught now either....

Seven years ago it couldn't be caught...not even with before and after scans...the way it was caught now..?

 

I believe he's saying that if the trimming had been done seven years ago, we wouldn't have been able to catch it today. Meaning, we wouldn't have the Heritage scan to compare it to, and any physical evidence of the trimming would have aged and become undetectable.

 

I thought the seven year reference was to when CGC came into being, no?

 

I think CGC is only 5 years old.

[jbud73]

Where's JBud? I want his appraisal. To be honest I felt there was a modicum of candour there, but there are still more questions than answers. It wasn't that different to the previous announcement in terms of overall content, although I'm glad Steve, rather than a committee, spoke up.

 

Hey captain I was on vacation in Australia when this came out. I am just getting caught up on all the pertinent threads - however from my initial read it looks like Steve just expanded in laymens terms the original statement, but this time it was wrttien from a personal perspective with appropriate anecdotes thrown in.

 

Personally I can't wait for the subpoena to get handed down - only then will we get anything worthwhile IMO. Its sad that its come to the collector base seeking to legally compel the entity that is viewed as the arbitor of collector interests in the marketplace to supply us with information vital to our protection.

[BassGMan]

Its sad that its come to the collector base seeking to legally compel the entity that is viewed as the arbitor of collector interests in the marketplace to supply us with information vital to our protection.

 

I see your point. But when publishing a list of comics that may have missed trimming by a company that is supposed to catch such trimming, well.... it just doesn't look good for CGC (from CGC's point of view) to have that information (official published list) out there. This is a far cry from an automobile manufacturer that needs to recall certain models due to some fire hazard. CGC may be a (not "the") arbitor of collector interests, but don't forget, CGC's first interest is CGC, and that is exactly how it should be.

[jbud73]

Thanks. Yeah, your are right that it is used by a lots of folks and does not, in and of itself mean much. For me, when I add that, it is simply to state that based on what I know of Steve, my personal faith in him is not yet shaken. We will see how things turn out over time.

 

I could be foolishly naive. I like to think that Steve is "battling within the belly of the beast" and will come out victorious with his integrity intact and a much more open and honest CGC. Yet, when one combines this stuff with what is happening on the numismatic side of the house with the major grading service, it does seem to be an incestuous world. This is probably caused by the fact that these "markets" are really very very shallow when compared to typical “investment grade” markets and to top that, they are built on very subjective qualities of esthetic desirability with no intrinsic worth to the world economy. . And, in my "sky is falling" sense, I wonder how this this can be kept from the eyes of the investors that have more money than sense.

 

Sorry guys I'm only on page 9 and while there have been typically excellent posts from some of the established guard around here - I want to say that Bruce's thoughts (posts) on this topic have impressed me, capped off so far by this post. Succinct and very poignant. A welcome addition with great anecdotes and supporting information to back up his positions.

 

Well done

[jbud73]

AK,

Have you ever met Steve B. or Mark? Had a conversation with them?I'm curious because you make statements like "he is not concerned about the hobby",and 'he's not concerned about you".

Seems like might bold accustions,so I'm curious what you are basing them on.

Have you met them and determined that they are phonies? Or is it just your experiance that anyone that works for a big company has sold out and is just in it for a paycheck?

It appears that having made your decision to get out of the CGC market,you need to justify it by attacking both it and anyone who hasn't seen the light.

Can you give one iota of evidence that Steve doesn't care about the hobby?That Mark has lost his passion for our hobby and now is concerned only about collecting a paycheck?

Attacking CGC is fine and they have a lot to answer for,without a doubt. But that really doesn't excuse making uninformed statements about good people that have been in our hobby for many,many years.

 

I don't feel the need to "justify" anything. I got out of buying and selling CGC before this Ewert stuff came to light, and I didn't really mention it. And I certainly wasn't bashing CGC, or suggesting anyone bail out. But now, considering all that has happened, I'm shocked to see that there are still apologists out there. Any objective/logical person, looking at all the issues surrounding CGC, would find them to be an unwise investment at this current time(on the high end of the grading spectrum, or on very expensive books).

 

As for Steve and Mark; I have met Steve, but that was a while back(before I joined these boards). As I've said, I do think that he's a good guy, and I certainly don't think he would intentionally do anything to hurt the hobby. Mark, I've never met.

 

So, do I think Steve cares about this hobby? Yes. Do I think he has a passion for it? Yes. However, at the current time his back is against the wall, because CGC is against the wall. He is working for a corporation, and while that dosen't automatically make him a sellout, it does put him between a rock, and a hard place. And again, I'm sure he LOVES this hobby, but like the rest of us, he's got priorities. And I would wager that the welfare of this hobby, while it may be important to him, ranks BELOW keeping his career intact, and putting food on the table for his daughter. This is common sense to me, and I don't understand why this seems hard for some of you to swallow. There's a difference between self-preservation, and selfishness, and I'm merely suggesting that Steve has to take the self-preservation route at this point. As a result, I wouldn't be depending on him for definitive answers, because he can't give them to you. He may WANT to give them to you, but his hands are tied.

 

Look, I'm just calling it as I see it. Maybe it seems harsh, but when it comes to business, I take the kid's gloves off. I've been self-employed since high school, I have meetings with lots of business owners and CEO's whom I sell product to, and I've seen how low the corporate world will sink to inorder to protect their own [embarrassing lack of self control]e$. So, you can call my posts harsh, jaded, or uninformed, but to me this is reality. And as much as I love this hobby, if I had built a comic business/career on hard work and honesty, but a situation came up that was out of my control and threatened to tear down all my hard work, you bet your that I would prioritize my own well-being and the well-being of the people that I care about, over a bunch of funnybooks. Heck, I'd burn down this hobby before I let the actions of the corrupt destroy my livelyhood. The comic industry is not social/charity work, and it's not a "noble calling" that people devote or sacrifice their lives to. It's a business, and more than that, it's a business that serves no purpose other than providing entertainment to people with disposable(or credit based ) income. Hardly a noble pursuit, and not one where I expect to see feats of self-sacrifice for the greater good.

 

A cold, hard dose of reality from Andrew here, who makes a great analogy over the competing forces at play in the real world. I sometimes think that comic book collectors - and I am very guilty of this as well, like to bring the black and white polarity of the good and evil that permeates the medium and marry it to the hobby.

 

This of course is a huge error to make. Like DC said in the 80s "Comics are not just for kids anymore." Sorry to say, but the comic book hobby is not for them either. The amount of information you need as a collector today is more staggering than ever. Thanks again Andrew for reminding us that the rose colored glasses should have been shattered a long time ago.