Follow up response from Steve Borock

[jbud73]

If you have been waiting for answers, the post by Steve Borock likely did not answer any of the important questions that have been posed. As others have already suggested, waiting for those answers will not bear any fruit. Those answers will likely never come, because they cannot be given to you, because I am quite certain that Steve Eichenbaum and the other corporate heads of CCG are not going to allow any uncensored further commentary from Borock.

 

Let’s be clear: The post adds nothing that we do not already know (unless you count the fact that real names are now required to register). I can’t thank Steve for coming on here and just restating in chronology what we already know, and what he has already told us. I cannot thank Steve for telling us he banned Jason Ewert, and summarizing the facts about what CGC has done in response. CGC has already gotten credit for that. I cannot thank Steve for again defending Chris Friesen, yet failing to truly address Friesen’s role in selective offers of pressing for select customers (though I do not believe he would trim a book for a customer and not disclose that information). I cannot thank Steve for not providing the information regarding the numbers regarding trimmed books that they DID catch. Except, I never expected him to come on here and to make that information public. Unfortunately, the reality is from a corporate standpoint, I doubt that they can provide any more than they have done.

 

The statement actually dances around several issues and never directly addresses them. It certainly makes the answers to the questions, did Friesen do pressing, or, paranoia about books in blue labels, ambiguous at best. How many books specifically did CGC catch in the current submission of Ewert books that were still raw? Did they look at them? Because it gives you an idea of the scope that Ewert probably submitted in the past. It’s been caught now because CGC now knows what it is looking for.

 

I believe that Steve Borock, Mark Haspel and Paul Litch are all very passionate about the hobby, and would never do something they believe would harm the hobby in the long run. But certification and official grading, while having benefits, is also something that in my mind has been geared towards one thing: the bottom line.

 

I don’t believe there’s been a big profit at CGC to this point. I think the company might have finally turned a profit last fiscal year. I highly doubt they were making a profit before that, perhaps very minor, if at all (this is based partially on outside data, but also relying on statements Steve has made to me regarding the fact that they haven’t been a booming financial success – yet). But – there is definite plan in place, when you look at the chain of events.

 

CGC was conceived with the idea that it would one day enter the pressing services field (or some other form of restoration service). I don’t think grading alone is going to make it profitable enough. Encapsulation and certification has been going for 5 years now, and I’m not sure you’re going to see a much wider scope of books being graded than you have now. Maybe a slight increase. So without a drastic increase in fees (which would then make it less accessible to people), it makes it difficult to turn a profit – unless you find another means of income.

 

When pressing was first announced awhile back as being “acceptable” to CGC because if done professionally, it cannot be detected on a consistent basis the first shot was fired over the bow. The practice has been around for quite some time. In fact, books have been pressed, and it has not been disclosed, well before CGC. But – with the inception of CGC, you can slowly change the minds of collectors everywhere to accept pressing as a practice that is not harmful to the books, or something that collectors will simply accept because so many pressed books will already be out in blue labels. Prior to CGC, why was pressing not disclosed to most customers? Because I believe most collectors (I was one of them) believed pressing WAS a form of restoration, and thus should be disclosed. I simply accepted as something that I could live with (I still maintain that there’s no proof that pressing damages a book if done properly).

 

Regardless of my feelings on pressing, the idea was to get people to accept pressing as a technique, and to put pressed books onto the market. In order to do this, CGC has to adopt the official policy of pressing is not restoration. Allegedly, pressing is offered to “select” customers, and not made available to the public, nor disclosed to them. After some time, and certain dealers engaging in this practice, a new company is announced: Friesen is leaving CGC to start his own business, pressing services included. And who would you go to? The guy who works down the hall from CGC, or Matt Nelson or Tracey Heft? Even if there is no collusion, the company is clearly banking on the fact that there will be some perception of a helpful grade or insider knowledge in the marketing of their product. Is their guy THAT much better? Doubtful. But pressing IS a profitable service, and when you combine it with grading, you get a profitable product. And one that will turn a profit on a yearly basis.

 

Of course, the framework was laid with coins. Read the NCS website. Toning is bad, but cleaning, once thought to be a no-no for coins, is just fine for coins when done professionally (i.e. our service) through the techniques and technology offered through NCS. Some collectors like toning, and I spoke to an old time coin collector who was shocked that cleaning was now an accepted practice (he’s been out for awhile) and a service offered by NCS. Of course, times change, but why do they change? Because we as collectors make it possible. We allow for this type of change in the marketplace because ultimately, we have already accepted pressing. It is here to stay, and it is on books you likely own, whether or not you know or not. And now, no worries, because CGC has told you it’s ok, and dealers have said it’s ok. Even though for years it’s been hidden, now it can be disclosed – why? Because it’s going to become an accepted practice. It is a manufactured high grade product that is not real. If you buy high grade for something more than aesthetic appeal, actual historical preservation, then I think you will be disappointed with today’s product of books encapsulated.

 

Trimming is an over the line next logical step. As I’ve seen others posit, what’s the big deal if the book is trimmed? I mean 1/32nd of an inch? It doesn’t detract from the eye appeal, it’s still a great looking 40 year old book! Of course, it looks nice, but I don’t think collectors want that… They want a book that’s been naturally preserved and was on the racks – the value is NOT in aesthetic appeal alone. Perhaps one day for comic books it will be true, but that day has not come. Conservation is the next step in the acceptance process, and you will again be asked to make that choice. And more conservation services for CGC to offer the consumer.

 

Also consider this: the logic behind pressing being declared as not restoration was that CGC could not detect it on a consistent basis if done properly. Yet they did PLOD books where the pressing was done poorly because it was evident. How about if they were pressing the books themselves? I guess they could detect the pressing, so why weren’t the books they pressed PLODs? Following their logic, pressing either is or is not restoration. A bad press job simply results in a lower grade NOT a PLOD. But of course, that logic would detract from CGC’s ability to market their own service.

 

This is not meant as an indictment to never use CGC’s service. It is meant to serve as a statement that we the collecting community have allowed it to happen. We wanted to believe in CGC so badly that we think that the reason for this service was to help collectors first. It is not. It is to make money first, and to provide the collectors a service second. And frankly, there’s nothing wrong with that.

 

What the Ewert scandal has illustrated more than anything else is not to accept apathy and history as our drop back for what will result going forward. In essence, we must take a more proactive role in ensuring that dealers will act honestly and fairly when dealing with us. The truth is that they some of taken advantage of us, and too little has been done to rid the hobby of these frauds. In order to do that, when a fraud is uncovered, it is incumbent on us not simply to move beyond it, and forget it, and say these guys will be back, what can we do? The idea is to continue fighting for integrity in the comic book hobby. There is plenty of money to be made for dealers without them resorting to undisclosed restoration. And the goal is to collect evidence and prove that they have been frauds. Today it was Ewert, perhaps in staying vigilant, it will be someone else.

 

CGC has taken a number of steps in the Ewert situation that have been aimed at reassuring consumer confidence in their product. That’s what the purpose of the statement was. Don’t worry, we’re watching. While I like Steve Borock, while I consider him a friend, I cannot rely on him to be the person policing the hobby. Frankly, it’s not their job to do that. Their interest is the advancement of CGC first and that is why I rambled on above about what the framework of the CGC system has been from the start. A system set up to make money.

 

Is the hobby better off with CGC? Yes. A grading company has helped to fix a number of problems and brought us a whole host of new ones.

 

Some of the board members may say, lighten up, it’s only comics. Why worry when there’s not much you can do, just keep looking for books. I don’t think we ought to bury our heads in the sand and allow the status quo to continue. I hope that in the coming months, as more proactive plans are announced to address some of these concerns, we will use these boards as a tool not to tear apart CGC, but rather as a force where dealers and collectors alike begin dealing with each other honestly and openly. While the bottom line is always key, character and integrity need not be sacrificed in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

 

I believe we can make the comic book hobby more honest (and integrity IS a problem in our hobby), and I refuse to surrender to cynicism and believe that nothing will ever change. And I know there are a lot of you who continue to believe as I do.

 

Maybe the best I've read in summary yet. Are you sure you're a lawyer.

[jbud73]

Guys, there's a whole lot of info in the posts here today if you really examine them closely:

 

CGC was conceived with the idea that it would one day enter the pressing services field (or some other form of restoration service).

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When pressing was first announced awhile back as being “acceptable” to CGC because if done professionally, it cannot be detected on a consistent basis the first shot was fired over the bow.

 

Expanding on Foolkiller's excellent treatise, I'd like to point out that board member "lou_fine" has repeatedly mentioned two things with regard to pressing and CGC: 1) Prior to CGC, pressing was hardly ever done by itself and typically only came along with other, more drastic forms of restoration; primarily this was due to 2) Books weren't hammered on grade as much as they are nowadays by CGC because of defects like non-color breaking creases, which, of course, are quite fixable via pressing.

 

In other words, CGC not only seems to have co-opted a restoration stategy for their own benefit, they've also created a strong market for said technique. The best of both worlds, indeed.

 

While I like Steve Borock, while I consider him a friend...

-------------------------------------------------------

Over the past 5 years, many of us have had a chance to get to know the employees of CGC very well. We've dined, drank and talked comics together (in person and on the boards) and as a result many of us have come to consider them friends.

 

I echo the above sentiments. But it also raises an interesting notion. Throughout this controversy, Borock's true feelings with regard to this hobby have been debated by a number of you. Unfortunately, this debate has been rather binary: "He's for the hobby!" "He's in it for the money!" This argument neglects other possibilites, including one that incorporates the above "schmooze" factor. If it boiled down to him doing something that would negatively affect the hobby, his employer, or a long-term friendship, which would he choose? Heck, which would you or I choose?

 

especially when some of the people at CGC are badmouthing their competitors like Matt Nelson.

-----------------------------------------------

when I sat down with Steve in Baltimore, he mentioned his disappointment with Matt Nelson because his work had deteriorated lately and that the press jobs were no longer that good.

 

The badmouthing aside, does Foolkiller's conversation not sit right with anyone else? First off, I thought pressing was undetectable? Or has Matt's skill gone so far downhill that he's now in the realm of the "amateur pressers?" Second, assuming this is not the case, how would Steve know such intimate details of so many books? Nowadays, getting someone to admit that a book has been pressed is the equivalent of pulling teeth, yet Borock knows of enough books pressed by one restoration guy to pass judgement that his work is now lacking? Note that this also presumes that Borock knows of Matt's work prior to Matt's supposed skills decline. That seems like a lot of books to me.

 

I would encourage the author of the email to step up to the plate and sign his name to this, as this is as important a moment in the hobby as I can think of. I take no pleasure in this post.

 

I would also like to encourage the author of Redhook's email to step forward, and would thank and congratulate him for so doing. In that same vein, I would like to publicly thank THE_BEYONDER for stepping forward a few days ago and revealing Steve's offer to have Friesen "look at" one of his books with SCS.

 

It's certain that CGC has been selectively pressing books with SCS for at least a year (i.e. prior to Friesen's leaving). It's less certain whether this pressing extended to non-SCS defects, although it's not that far of a stretch to imagine. What's even murkier with regard to all of this is whether Friesen was performing any other work under the CGC banner. Many of you may recall that CGC was gung-ho about starting a restoration removal service back in 2001 which was subsequently shot-down by the collector community via the AACC. Is it possible that this service simply went "underground," and is thus non-commentable by CGC employees?

 

All in all, there are more and more questions coming out every day. We're really only dealing with the tip of the iceberg here.

 

Alan

 

 

Alan gets a for this one man. Especially for this one two punch that he puts into perspective.

 

In other words, CGC not only seems to have co-opted a restoration stategy for their own benefit, they've also created a strong market for said technique. The best of both worlds, indeed.

 

We always wondered why they never released their standards. It now seems to me that the reason was that their standards were not completely impartial. At least in part CGC grading standards were premeditatedly created with a certain BUSINESS MODEL IN MIND.

[jbud73]

Well I've now read the rest, haven't gotten onto the PCS thread yet - not sure I will, anything in there that's ground breaking?

 

All in all I was set to write a long diatribe with anecdotes etc, but people will believe what they want to believe. Me, I believe that CCG is running the coinee playbook in comics. Half-time Ewert show just finished and the 2nd half will start with them chucking the PLOD, getting the word conservation into our lexicon for all the wrong reasons (IE to make them more $$). This along with the PCS is no coincidence and in the end all the standards and machinery put in place over the past few decades will be railroaded down the Halperin track. I guess anything of value dervied by the collector base is probably due to Steve saying, ok look we gotta give them a few things in order for the medicine to go down. I guess we should thank him for that.

 

I had a coin collector say to me about a year ago "You ain't seen nothin' yet, when they are done your hobby will be unrecognizable from itself" I thought at the time he was being melodramatic - I think that less and less every day.

[CW]

I was going to read all 70+ pages of this thread but after reading the first few when they were fresh and then Jbud's excellent highlights I just decided to read a comic instead. I am happy with my choice. I like to think of myself as a man of action and I get angry when things keep getting rehashed over and over again. My natural reaction is to either do something or move on and obviously we can't simply move on so with some restraint I am trying to keep up to speed with the facts and important events while trying to avoid the endless discussion. Does anyone else find these endless topics on all of this [embarrassing lack of self control] nauseating? Not to say that they aren't necessary.

[Harvey Dude]

Steve has never said that CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration because they cannot detect it...

 

 

I believe you are correct. Steve stated pressing is not restoration and it cannot be detected all of the time but the latter may not be the reason for CGC's position. Steve did state "I have stated again and again that we do not put pressed books into purple labels and as long as the comic is not damaged, we will not guess if a book has been pressed or not."

[Harvey Dude]

Jbud,

 

Good elaboration on foolkiller's comments.

[esquirecomics]

Steve has never said that CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration because they cannot detect it...

 

 

I believe you are correct. Steve stated pressing is not restoration and it cannot be detected all of the time but the latter may not be the reason for CGC's position. Steve did state "I have stated again and again that we do not put pressed books into purple labels and as long as the comic is not damaged, we will not guess if a book has been pressed or not."

 

Actually at least 3 CGC employees including Steve, West (and I think the third was Friesen when he was still with CGC) have stated that pressing is not restoration for, among other independent several reasons, that it cannot be detected.

 

I mentioned this before and someone, I believe in this thread (but who knows where!), confirmed my recollection.

[drbanner]

Steve has never said that CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration because they cannot detect it...

 

 

I believe you are correct. Steve stated pressing is not restoration and it cannot be detected all of the time but the latter may not be the reason for CGC's position. Steve did state "I have stated again and again that we do not put pressed books into purple labels and as long as the comic is not damaged, we will not guess if a book has been pressed or not."

 

Actually at least 3 CGC employees including Steve, West (and I think the third was Friesen when he was still with CGC) have stated that pressing is not restoration for, among other independent several reasons, that it cannot be detected.

 

I mentioned this before and someone, I believe in this thread (but who knows where!), confirmed my recollection.

 

You did mention it before (this thread?), and someone else chimed in that they had the same recollection, but no quotes. I believe there is a leap going on in the logic here whereby "Pressing is not restoration. CGC cannot consistently detect pressing." is transmogrified into "Pressing is not restoration, b/c we cannot detect it consistently."

 

Random Thoughts...

 

If I iron a crease out of my pants but the only thing you see is pants without any creases, how can you say they've been pressed/ironed? However, if I burn my pants while ironing them my pants are now ruined...if CGC can tell a book has been pressed, doesn't that mean it's been fooked up/damaged and that damage should be accounted for in the grade?

 

I've read a couple posts about things to look for when detecting pressing, and as I read those kinds of posts I'm thinking "If the gloss is ruined, that book should be downgraded...if the spine is now shaped like < instead of a "U", it should be downgraded, etc.,."

[Red Hook]

These are two entirely different statements. One doesn't rely on the other.

 

#1. Pressing is not restoration.

 

#2. CGC cannot consistently detect pressing.

 

 

In statement two...you could substitute "trimming" or "staple replacement" for "pressing" and it would still be true. So let's forget it for the sake of this examination.

 

So, going back to statement #1, and forgetting about statement #2.....has CGC ever given a solid reason for why they feel #1 is true? Again, if it ain't restoration, and it ain't conservation...then WHAT IS IT? Pressing certainly alters the appearance of a book, definitely changes it, and definitely is an attempt to return it to a presumed prior state. It's not being done for conservational purposes.....at least in the case of most silver age books..... so it has to be restoration.

[drbanner]

These are two entirely different statements. One doesn't rely on the other.

 

#1. Pressing is not restoration.

 

#2. CGC cannot consistently detect pressing.

I agree, they are independent positions.

 

...if it ain't restoration, and it ain't conservation...then WHAT IS IT?

Yep, it's certainly something, isn't it?

[Red Hook]

...if it ain't restoration, and it ain't conservation...then WHAT IS IT?

Yep, it's certainly something, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

[whetteon]

...if it ain't restoration, and it ain't conservation...then WHAT IS IT?

Yep, it's certainly something, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

 

[Red Hook]

We could file it under "Imaginary Creatures"......

 

- Chimera

- Unicorn

- Big Foot

- Lock Ness Monster

- Pressing

- Minotaur

- Dry Cleaning

- Werewolf

- Vampire

 

 

Yep....that's how we should categorize it!

 

 

 

[Forbush-Man]

We could file it under "Imaginary Creatures"......

 

- Chimera

- Unicorn

- Big Foot

- Lock Ness Monster

- Pressing

- Minotaur

- Dry Cleaning

- Werewolf

- Vampire

- Greggy

 

 

Yep....that's how we should categorize it!

 

 

 

 

List updated.

[Red Hook]

[Illiterati-migration]

Steve has never said that CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration because they cannot detect it...

 

 

I believe you are correct. Steve stated pressing is not restoration and it cannot be detected all of the time but the latter may not be the reason for CGC's position. Steve did state "I have stated again and again that we do not put pressed books into purple labels and as long as the comic is not damaged, we will not guess if a book has been pressed or not."

 

Actually at least 3 CGC employees including Steve, West (and I think the third was Friesen when he was still with CGC) have stated that pressing is not restoration for, among other independent several reasons, that it cannot be detected.

 

I mentioned this before and someone, I believe in this thread (but who knows where!), confirmed my recollection.

 

This was the reasoning provided in the nascency of this nonsense, you are correct.

 

However, with the gift of space and time that I have been given regarding this argument, I think I could say with great confidence that this statement has been misinterpreted. Translated from the chimpanzee-speak through which Borock The Non-Verbal Businessboy attempts to communicate, I think he was actually saying the following:

 

"Pressing is not restoration in terms of CGC's grading standards because we cannot detect it. Pressing IS restoration, but not within the confines of the dank walls of the CGC compound because if I were to acknowledge it as such, it would completely undermine the entire company and only an insufficiently_thoughtful_person (of a scale much larger than myself) would make such an acknowledgement. Khaos is Lord, amen."

[Aman619]

We could file it under "Imaginary Creatures"......

 

- Chimera

- Unicorn

- Big Foot

- Lock Ness Monster

- Pressing

- Minotaur

- Dry Cleaning

- Werewolf

- Vampire

- Greggy

 

 

Yep....that's how we should categorize it!

 

 

List updated.

 

its the creature otherwise known as kaChing...

[esquirecomics]

We could file it under "Imaginary Creatures"......

 

- Chimera

- Unicorn

- Big Foot

- Lock Ness Monster

- Pressing

- Minotaur

- Dry Cleaning

- Werewolf

- Vampire

 

 

Yep....that's how we should categorize it!

 

 

 

 

First of all, it is Loch Ness.

 

Second of all I represent Nessie, who is quite real and pays her invoices on time, albeit in fish, and we are quite insulted you intimated she is as fake as the argument that pressing is not restoration!

[chrisco37]

 

Second of all I represent Nessie, who is quite real and pays her invoices on time, albeit in fish, and we are quite insulted you intimated she is as fake as the argument that pressing is not restoration!

 

It's true, he does! Look at what I found on Mark's site:

 

Last week, Japanese scientists explaced... placed explosive detonators at the bottom of Lake Loch Ness to blow Nessie out of the water. Sir Godfrey of the Nessie Alliance summoned the help of Scotland's local wizards to cast a protective spell over the lake and its local residents and all those who seek for the peaceful existence of our underwater ally.

[Red Hook]

First of all, it is Loch Ness.

 

Second of all I represent Nessie, who is quite real and pays her invoices on time, albeit in fish, and we are quite insulted you intimated she is as fake as the argument that pressing is not restoration!

 

I new it didn't look write. I alwaz pryde myselph on mi speling. Damit!