Follow up response from Steve Borock

[THE_BEYONDER]

What's the point? Steve's response added absolutely nothing to this discussion. I think it's fair to say that collectors are on their own in this battle.

 

Fine with me. Time to cleanse this hobby of this plague of greed, and return it to the hands of collectors.

 

FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!!

[Aman619]

What's the point? Steve's response added absolutely nothing to this discussion. I think it's fair to say that collectors are on their own in this battle.

 

Fine with me. Time to cleanse this hobby of this plague of greed, and return it to the hands of collectors.

 

FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!!

 

I agree we are on our own. But nothing has ever prevented anyone here from posting their opinions on matters like this. I think there must be a reason... and Im all for that! So I wont mention it again.

[Alex DeLarge-migration]

I think there's nothing more to it than it's FRIDAY and people are on the juice after work or whatever.

Probably the topic is being talked to death as we speak by those very members up & down the country.

[Rip]

I thought this was a good step in the right direction and added some new information.

 

But honestly I don't have much more to say on the topic. I'm all talked out right now.

[BassGMan]

Fair question. In my case, there are three reasons:

 

1. I, like many of the serious collectors that I know, have an influential position (lawyer, doctor, manager, professor, ...). While some people prefer to be open about their hobby (more power to them!), many of us find that it simplifies things professionally to remain anonymous. In some circles, buying valuable comics would be perceived as a weakness that your enemies would try to explore to their advantage.

 

2. I've found that keeping a low profile opens the door to doing business with people from category 1. I've landed some of my best deals because my contacts know I can be trusted and can keep my mouth shut.

 

3. To protect my collection against theft.

 

Thanks for the reasonable answer, it makes sense. It is unfortunate though to have a penchant for valuable and rare comic books be used as a weakness against you. I guess if you were running for political office, or some important office in a large company your competitors may try to use it against you. But spending large amounts of money on comics doesn't quite look as bad as being arrested for drunken driving or being caught "inhaling". It is also unfortunate that some outside this hobby still look at us as some kind of group of misfits, but I realize that attitude still does exist sometimes. Either way, if being "exposed" means possible embarassment among your peers, I can understand wanting to remain anonymous.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Two things that bother me with Steve's response:

 

1. Absolutely no mention of the person who actually performed the practice

 

2. No mention of what will happen if CGC catches more trimmed books from a different submitter.

 

Who's performing the work....and why is their identity being kept a secret?

[Rip]

Does he know who really did the work?

I guess it would be case by case...I don't know???

[jkrk]

 

First let me say that I know this has taken longer than most of you had wanted, but, truth be told, it takes time to make sure you have actual facts before making a public statement. Premature statements and accusations hurt everybody and help no one. That said, I will now go into as much detail as I can about what has happened in the last two months, many questions and concerns that have been brought up on the boards lately, what is being done about it as them and the changes CGC will be implanting in the up coming weeks and months.

 

Let’s deal with the Ewert situation first.

 

The first time the comics found to have been trimmed sold and/or consigned by Jason Ewert by board members, we did the best we could to control the situation by talking to all parties involved, trying to get the comic books back, and learning about that specfic kind of trim so that we would be able to detect it better in the future. There was no clear evidence that Jason did the trimming and because he had been a long standing member of our hobby, he was told not to do any more business with “shady” people so that he could cut down his chances of getting trimmed books. I had also heard from Marc Schrueder, who said he did not trim the books or sell books to Jason. The problem with that is that Marc has had a bad history with CGC and because he lied to us in the past and has been banned from CGC (I asked him to leave the hobby and, as far as I know, he did), how could we believe him now. In hindsight, we should have asked Jason for more proof, but when you are dealing with someone you have had a very good business relationship for years and never had problems with them before, you tend to believe them. I have personally known Jason for about 16 years and really wanted to believe him. This is a guy I have had many meals with, for the last two years I considered a friend, and he was also friends with many of my friends.

 

The minute I read on the boards that the next book (Strange Tales) was found to have been trimmed on that Saturday morning. I got on the phone to Jason and asked him what was going on. Jason told me he did not trim the book. He said that he got it from someone else and also did not buy it from Heritage. I told him I did not care. I told him if that’s true, to bad, it’s the boy who cried wolf, now the wolf is here and nobody will believe him anyway. I told him to get out of the hobby and do not look back. I told him that if I find out he has ever sold another book from that day on, I would do everything in my power, as president of CGC as well as a hobbyist, to make sure he regrets it for the rest of his life. Jason said he would leave the hobby.

 

Jason is now gone for good. If he returns CGC will contemplate taking legal action, though we are contemplating taking it now anyway.

 

I have stated this before: CGC will look at any comic book that was bought from Jason in the last year even though I do not believe that the problem started more than seven months ago and the problem is not as widespread as many here believe. I truly believe that the boards are being fueled by paranoia, so the amount of books people are worried about that are in blue labels are much less then people believe. Tom Brulato, who has backed Jason as well as other comic book sellers, has already stated he would buy back any book CGC has found to be trimmed as long as it was a book he co-owned with Jason. He also stated that if he did not co-own the book with Jason, he would try to help that person get their money back from Jason.

 

If Tom cannot get the money back from Jason, CGC will buy the book back at what the person paid for it or its fair market value, whichever we choose.

 

As to the certification numbers; we do not release confidential information without a subpoena. That is company policy and the bottom line.

 

As to CGC’s restoration detection ability; I know that we are the best team in the hobby, bar none. This is not a statement I make lightly but, it is a fact that I am very proud of. We probably have found more hard to detect restoration on books in the last 5 years then the people and experts in our hobby have found in the last thirty years. How many of you have bought comics before CGC opened that you believed to be unrestored, that came back from us in a purple restored label? Some of you remember what it was like before CGC and the internet. Honest collectors and dealers alike were unknowingly buying and selling restored books. Dishonest collectors and dealers were making money hand over fist. Undeclared restored books were being bought even from Sotheby’s and Christie’s auction house. Just ask Jerry Weist how many books now come back from CGC restored that were “inspected” and given a “clean bill of health” before the auctions. We are not perfect, we are human, and once in awhile something is going to get past us. Even with that, we are the best and safest insurance policy this hobby has ever seen. The graders are a group of hobbyists working very hard to make our hobby better for the reader, collector, seller, and investor. The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.

 

No matter how good we get, someone will always try new ways to get things past us, that’s what dishonest people do. But like a friend told me, “When you build your first mouse trap, someone is going to try and eventually figure out how to get past that trap, so you need to build a better trap.” That is what we are going to do. With the help of some people we know, it looks as if we are going to have a special scanning process that will allow us to match up comics to a scan within seconds. This will be costly and hurt our re-submissions, but it will protect the buyer and seller and help CGC “build a better mousetrap”.

 

Speaking of restoration and the people who work at CGC, and I want to make this very clear, we are part of and from the hobby as well as some fellow board members. People such as Mark Haspel, Paul Litch, John Slater, Jerry Stephan, Michael McFadden, West Stephen (Timely), Scott Talmadge, Josh Hanin (Newtsamson), and now Bradley Bradley (BradleyX2). When great people from our hobby get to CGC they do not change and all of a sudden become part of the “darkside”. We come to work every day and do the best job we can because we love this hobby and we would expect the same of the people here if we were not CGC employees and just submitters. I have always treated every book that comes in here as if it were my own and I know that the other graders do the same. We do not give out “better” grades to friends or larger submitters, nor do we ignore any restoration found when submitted by them either. Many of you have told me that you have gotten better grades than you have expected at times, it is only because we felt, in our opinion, it was deserving of that grade.

 

This also leads to the Jim Halperin issue that keeps coming up. Jim has no say whatsoever about the day to day workings at CGC, or with the other businesses under the CCG umbrella. If Mark Haspel, Paul Litch, or I were ever told or asked to change a grade for anyone, not just Jim Halperin, we would decline immediately. Not only that, but we would quit if we were ever asked a second time. This is how the CCG operates and the reason the CCG hired us. Our reputations and love for this hobby are more important to us than money. Once again, we love our jobs and know that it protects the hobby, it’s why the three of us believe in CGC. Jim Halperin has NEVER called us up asking for a better grade. Jim has actually helped the hobby by keeping scans of the heritage auction books up. Also, for the record, we have never asked Jim to take the scans down.

 

As to turn times, some are saying that submissions are way down, this is not true. We now have 12 people in the grading room (Pre-graders and Finalizers) and 2 people doing QC, as opposed to the 8 people in the grading room and 1 QC person we were working with 8 months ago. Mark Haspel and I have handed the finalizing of all Moderns over to Paul Litch and Shawn Caffrey, so Mark and I now have more time to spend on Economy’s and the other vintage tiers.

 

I also want to talk about Chris Friesen and PCS. There have been many aspersions cast on these boards. Some about Chris trimming books. I will say this again; this is absolute nonsense. Period. Chris has always been and is still one of the most ethical people in our hobby. PCS is a separate entity from CGC. That said, just like we use other experts in our hobby to help us at times and I have always used the opinions and ideas of the experts at NGC for the first few years I was leaning about certification, we will also use Chris’s expertise for when we need to help protect the collecting community and better CGC. We may also contract Chris as a restoration detection expert if we do all tier on-site grading to make sure nothing gets past us during those long days of high volume. Some people will say that this is a conflict of interest. It is not. It can only be a conflict of interest if we abuse our relationship, which, as long as Chris is the head of PCS, and Mark Haspel and I run CGC, we will not. The only way to prove this is to show everyone this is not so by holding ourselves to the same high standards we always have. Time will always tell, we all know it will.

 

We are starting to put together a CGC advisory board and many forum members have asked to be on it. It will be made up of some forum members, some hobbyists from outside our boards, and a few dealers. This will help us continue to make policy as new things come up as well as having input from them during times like the Ewert situation. The forum members on the advisory board will also act as a liaison at times so the forum and the collecting community will be kept up to speed as to what is going on, while waiting for a situation to be resolved or while changes are being made to our certification process.

 

We are also in the midst of changing the way we label and rate restoration, conservation, and tape. We are very excited about these changes, we believe it will be better, not only for sellers and collectors, but these changes will also help to preserve the integrity of the comic books themselves. Packets will be going out to most major dealers and many collectors as well as forum members to solicit opinions before we set these new changes in stone.

 

People keep asking me when is it that we are going to close down this chatboard. I keep saying that I do not think it would be a good idea. The board has not only helped catch things like the trimmed books, but the board has helped do many, many good things for the hobby such as charity for many causes (and even some board members), got the word out about Dupcek and other ebay scammers, sharing information about comics whether it was grading, restoration, history, pedigree and other information to help learn more about our hobby. Most of us have made many friends and met honest people to trade, sell, and buy comic books with. The Forum dinners have become a highlight of the conventions for many of us (me included!) and the guests we have had (Bob & Carol Overstreet, Larmont Larson and family, Maggie Thompson, Michael Bair, Gary Colabuono, Michelle Nolan, Jim McLaughlin, Buzz, Tom Gordon, Rich Koslowski, J.C. Vaughn, among others) are really special. Just because there are many on here with shill id’s with there own anti-CGC agenda, I truly believe that the level headed people that truly love the hobby on our forum can pick them out and ignore them. But, because of this we might make it so that when you sign up, you need to use a real name that can be verified. It sounds silly that we would have to do this, but we want to keep the boards free from some of the nonsense that these people cause. Most people on here have no problem using their real name, if they have nothing to hide, why should they mind.

 

I hope I have answered many questions that people here have, though I am sure that some will not be happy with any answer or answers they get from us. The bottom line is that I have answered honestly and that is all I can do.

 

 

It's a quick read but It takes time to digest this thread.

 

1)Jason is "gone for good". In name only.

2)CGC will buy any Ewert restored book submitted over past 7 months that Brulato doesn't. They are attempting to protect their business but a positive business move.

3)"As to the certification numbers; we do not release confidential information without a subpoena". That's that.

4)Hobby detection of restoration- It's much better than pre CGC. We're building a better mousetrap. What percentage still get through? Unknown.

5)The Gang at Heritage and CGC are all honest- despite message board conspiracies.

6)Friesen is honest.

7)We're starting a CGC advisory borad so buyers/dealers/CGC can talk about important develpement ib the hobby.

8)label for restored books will be improved.

9 real names might be needed to sign onto message board in the future.

 

With the latest post what new info was learned? From my perspective the moves by CGC are probably correct but the crux of the matter comes down to one issue:

 

How reliable is the restoration check? I guess each buyer must make that determination for themselves.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Does he know who really did the work?

 

I have no idea.

 

Entertain the idea that SB has absolutely no idea who actually performed the work. Does it not seem the least bit odd that he mentions nothing of the culprit?

 

Common sense tells me that Steve would be going after "the guy in the trenchcoat" with Guns Blazing if he was unknown to him.

 

If you've been following the story from the beginning, you probably noticed(like I did) that the identity of the TRIM MASTER has somehow remained an almost non-existent concern.

[BassGMan]

Does he know who really did the work?

 

I have no idea.

 

Entertain the idea that SB has absolutely no idea who actually performed the work. Does it not seem the least bit odd that he mentions nothing of the culprit?

 

Common sense tells me that Steve would be going after "the guy in the trenchcoat" with Guns Blazing if he was unknown to him.

 

If you've been following the story from the beginning, you probably noticed(like I did) that the identity of the TRIM MASTER has somehow remained an almost non-existent concern.

 

Well, even if we did know who the guy was, as long as he is not submitting personally, he has not really done anything wrong. Yes, he has in the sense that he is helping others get away with a mostly non-detectable trim job, but isn't that what a "restorer" is supposed to do, make it so good that you can hardly even tell it has been done? Say they do find the guy. Then what? Can they tell him to stop? Sure they can, but he is not breaking any law, he can continue for as long as he wants and nobody can do anything about it. He will dry up only if the submissions stop coming in. Heck, if JE is trimming himself, he can continue to trim for others, and who would know?

[fingfangfoom]

So if, in the event that Hammer is indeed Abrams, a fact we are unable to verify, had the actual real name sign in protocol been in effect, the FF#3 situation may not have been brought to the boards attention.

 

As far as Steve's statement...the only bright spot was the introduction of the scanning procedure. Of course, since the scan database will be an internal function, there will be no access for us to pull up scans and compare/contrast on our own.

 

There was no mention of public notification via CBG or Wizard.

On this matter I want to thank Mr. Pantela for including the Ewert story in the GPA newsletter.

 

You may call me a pessimist, but it is my contention that Steve is too nice a guy. This in turn makes him an easy target. As a result, I am somewhat skeptical when he speaks so forthright about the upstanding character of certain individuals.

 

Response Grade: D-

[BassGMan]

 

You may call me a pessimist, but it is my contention that Steve is too nice a guy. This in turn makes him an easy target. As a result, I am somewhat skeptical when he speaks so forthright about the upstanding character of certain individuals.

 

Response Grade: D-

 

Yes, Steve is a very nice guy, but he is no pushover. He is a serious businessman. Doesn't always mean he makes the right decision, but I really don't think he is going to let anyone get away with a scam because he is "too nice" to do anything about it. Loyalty is another concern altogether though. People can be often be swayed due to loyalty in friendships.

[skybolt]

I have stated this before: CGC will look at any comic book that was bought from Jason in the last year even though I do not believe that the problem started more than seven months ago and the problem is not as widespread as many here believe. I truly believe that the boards are being fueled by paranoia, so the amount of books people are worried about that are in blue labels are much less then people believe.

 

I'm a little puzzled as to how Steve would know how many restored/trimmed books exist in blue labels, if the majority of people haven't resubmitted their Ewert books for inspection yet. I along with a lot of other people will become less paranoid when a majority of these books have been inspected and cleared. Making an overall assumption based on Ewert's last submission, which may comprise of only 5% of the total VIA submissions within the past year, may be wishful thinking.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Does he know who really did the work?

 

I have no idea.

 

Entertain the idea that SB has absolutely no idea who actually performed the work. Does it not seem the least bit odd that he mentions nothing of the culprit?

 

Common sense tells me that Steve would be going after "the guy in the trenchcoat" with Guns Blazing if he was unknown to him.

 

If you've been following the story from the beginning, you probably noticed(like I did) that the identity of the TRIM MASTER has somehow remained an almost non-existent concern.

 

Well, even if we did know who the guy was, as long as he is not submitting personally, he has not really done anything wrong. Yes, he has in the sense that he is helping others get away with a mostly non-detectable trim job, but isn't that what a "restorer" is supposed to do, make it so good that you can hardly even tell it has been done? Say they do find the guy. Then what? Can they tell him to stop? Sure they can, but he is not breaking any law, he can continue for as long as he wants and nobody can do anything about it. He will dry up only if the submissions stop coming in. Heck, if JE is trimming himself, he can continue to trim for others, and who would know?

 

Exactly. If the guy is merely "doing his job"....why the cloak & dagger routine?

[fingfangfoom]

Do not limit your time frame to the past calendar year. Also, I would urge anyone who may have purchased RAW books from JE in the last three or more years to have them checked.

[HighVoltage]

Does he know who really did the work?

 

I have no idea.

 

Entertain the idea that SB has absolutely no idea who actually performed the work. Does it not seem the least bit odd that he mentions nothing of the culprit?

 

Common sense tells me that Steve would be going after "the guy in the trenchcoat" with Guns Blazing if he was unknown to him.

 

If you've been following the story from the beginning, you probably noticed(like I did) that the identity of the TRIM MASTER has somehow remained an almost non-existent concern.

 

Well, even if we did know who the guy was, as long as he is not submitting personally, he has not really done anything wrong. Yes, he has in the sense that he is helping others get away with a mostly non-detectable trim job, but isn't that what a "restorer" is supposed to do, make it so good that you can hardly even tell it has been done? Say they do find the guy. Then what? Can they tell him to stop? Sure they can, but he is not breaking any law, he can continue for as long as he wants and nobody can do anything about it. He will dry up only if the submissions stop coming in. Heck, if JE is trimming himself, he can continue to trim for others, and who would know?

 

Exactly. If the guy is merely "doing his job"....why the cloak & dagger routine?

 

If one person/group were doing the resto for Jason, how could you look at it as if they were 'just doing their job?' They would HAVE to know exactly what was going on, based on the volume of material and Jason's rep. No freaking WAY is said trimmer innocent in the matter. Even if Jason hadn't submitted the books directly to the trimmer, wouldn't that person/group know their own work when they saw 'X' number of copies out there for sale at '9.X' grade? This person/group wasn't living in a vacuum.

[BassGMan]

Does he know who really did the work?

 

I have no idea.

 

Entertain the idea that SB has absolutely no idea who actually performed the work. Does it not seem the least bit odd that he mentions nothing of the culprit?

 

Common sense tells me that Steve would be going after "the guy in the trenchcoat" with Guns Blazing if he was unknown to him.

 

If you've been following the story from the beginning, you probably noticed(like I did) that the identity of the TRIM MASTER has somehow remained an almost non-existent concern.

 

Well, even if we did know who the guy was, as long as he is not submitting personally, he has not really done anything wrong. Yes, he has in the sense that he is helping others get away with a mostly non-detectable trim job, but isn't that what a "restorer" is supposed to do, make it so good that you can hardly even tell it has been done? Say they do find the guy. Then what? Can they tell him to stop? Sure they can, but he is not breaking any law, he can continue for as long as he wants and nobody can do anything about it. He will dry up only if the submissions stop coming in. Heck, if JE is trimming himself, he can continue to trim for others, and who would know?

 

Exactly. If the guy is merely "doing his job"....why the cloak & dagger routine?

 

I'm sure that whoever it is knows of the implications of his tasks. Another closed circle operation most likely.

[Mephisto]

I had also heard from Marc Schrueder, who said he did not trim the books or sell books to Jason. The problem with that is that Marc has had a bad history with CGC and because he lied to us in the past and has been banned from CGC (I asked him to leave the hobby and, as far as I know, he did), how could we believe him now.

 

So then he is the one that trimmed the Batman 11 eh?

[FFB]

I had also heard from Marc Schrueder, who said he did not trim the books or sell books to Jason. The problem with that is that Marc has had a bad history with CGC and because he lied to us in the past and has been banned from CGC (I asked him to leave the hobby and, as far as I know, he did), how could we believe him now.

 

So then he is the one that trimmed the Batman 11 eh?

 

Not unless he lives in England he isn't. The Batman #11 trimmer wasn't banned AFAIK.

[supapimp]

AFAIK.

 

411 to y'all - As Far As I Know