Sunfire & Big Hero 6

[Silverdream]

So…if the CGC labels indicate that the S&BH6 #1 came out 3 months prior to AF17, how is this remotely an argument as to when the 1st appearance of BH6 is?

 

Also, why does CGC not note on the label when the actual 1st appearance is?

 

 

Here is "basically" what happened:

 

 

While outline scripting far ahead on their run of Alpha Flight , Steve Seagle and Duncan Rouleau come up with the idea of Big Hero Six. They created them. Marvel loved the idea ( most likely Bob Harras , then Editor in Chief ). Seagle and Rouleau wanted to do either a limited series or a spinoff monthly mag. Their intention was to introduce the team in Alpha Flight and do the mini series themselves. About halfway into those plans it became apparent they did not have the time to do the limited series, so Marvel put Scott Lobdell to task on it, but instead of waiting three months to time it with Seagles storyline in Alpha Flight, Marvel decided to release it right away.

 

Why?

 

First, Marvel believed it could stand alone without the need of introduction in one of their ongoing titles. They were right. It reads well , they introduce the characters and team perfectly.

 

Second, Scott Lobdell had the time THEN, and might not have had the time three months down the road. So they decided to go ahead with it immediately.

 

 

Some people are out there trying to make others believe there was some scheduling disaster that caused the limited series to accidentally come out first. That is far from the case. The fact is, Alpha Flight # 17 was not delayed at all, as evidenced by the three inkers Marvel threw at the book to make sure it stayed on schedule. The Sunfire& BH6 mini came out exactly when Marvel wanted it to. The only scheduling issue that happened was Seagles wishes and dreams being crushed by the Marvel machine. He wanted it to play out a certain way, and it didn't. The creators initial plans for a new character(s) doesn't matter. What actually happened is what matters.

 

Alpha Flight's storyline was going in a certain direction when all of this happened so they continued on with it, putting BH6 in the issue they intended to. However, the cover of AF 17 would probably have read " introducing BH6" instead of " Guest starring BH6". They had plenty of time to change some things in AF 17 since BH6 was already introduced, and some seem obvious, like the cover.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sensei Ryan]

So…if the CGC labels indicate that the S&BH6 #1 came out 3 months prior to AF17, how is this remotely an argument as to when the 1st appearance of BH6 is?

 

Also, why does CGC not note on the label when the actual 1st appearance is?

 

 

Here is "basically" what happened:

 

 

While outline scripting far ahead on their run of Alpha Flight , Steve Seagle and Duncan Rouleau come up with the idea of Big Hero Six. They created them. Marvel loved the idea ( most likely Bob Harras , then Editor in Chief ). Seagle and Rouleau wanted to do either a limited series or a spinoff monthly mag. Their intention was to introduce the team in Alpha Flight and do the mini series themselves. About halfway into those plans it became apparent they did not have the time to do the limited series, so Marvel put Scott Lobdell to task on it, but instead of waiting three months to time it with Seagles storyline in Alpha Flight, Marvel decided to release it right away.

 

Why?

 

First, Marvel believed it could stand alone without the need of introduction in one of their ongoing titles. They were right. It reads well , they introduce the characters and team perfectly.

 

Second, Scott Lobdell had the time THEN, and might not have had the time three months down the road. So they decided to go ahead with it immediately.

 

 

Some people are out there trying to make others believe there was some scheduling disaster that caused the limited series to accidentally come out first. That is far from the case. The fact is, Alpha Flight # 17 was not delayed at all, as evidenced by the three inkers Marvel threw at the book to make sure it stayed on schedule. The Sunfire& BH6 mini came out exactly when Marvel wanted it to. The only scheduling issue that happened was Seagles wishes and dreams being crushed by the Marvel machine. He wanted it to play out a certain way, and it didn't. The creators initial plans for a new character(s) doesn't matter. What actually happened is what matters.

 

Alpha Flight's storyline was going in a certain direction when all of this happened so they continued on with it, putting BH6 in the issue they intended to. However, the cover of AF 17 would probably have read " introducing BH6" instead of " Guest starring BH6". They had plenty of time to change some things in AF 17 since BH6 was already introduced, and some seem obvious, like the cover.

 

 

Awesome - thank you for filling me in! Any idea as to when (if they haven't already) CGC will indicate the '1st appearance' on the slabs? Or does someone have to make that request before it becomes official, I take it (assuming it's not still up for debate)?

[CBT]

CGC's garage is waaaay bigger than PGXs, so it will take a while until someone gets around to deciding on the markets behalf

[artistlost]

I was flipping through my copy of Big Hero 6 #1 from the 2008 mini-series and in the back if has a breakdown of the team and it's members. On the main Big Hero 6 page it indicates that the first appearance was from the previous Big Hero 6 #1 mini...

 

Not sure if this adds anything but I would think that if Marvel is calling it the first appearance it should help in making it so...

 

mathew

[Silverdream]

I was flipping through my copy of Big Hero 6 #1 from the 2008 mini-series and in the back if has a breakdown of the team and it's members. On the main Big Hero 6 page it indicates that the first appearance was from the previous Big Hero 6 #1 mini...

 

Not sure if this adds anything but I would think that if Marvel is calling it the first appearance it should help in making it so...

 

mathew

 

 

That is correct. The Marvel Wiki also lists Sunfire & BH6 # 1 as the first appearance.

 

Wikipedia itself lists Sunfire & BH6 # 1 as the first appearance on the right side column, however in the description ( Allowed to be edited by nearly anyone ) This lame scheduling farce is listed and it claims AF# 17 was the first appearance. It's pretty obvious someone with stacks of AF17 has edited that Wiki page.

 

[Pinky Lee Zepplin]

They will all sell well if the movie is a hit as Marvel is putting out 0 books at that time.

[divad]

Random thought...

Who created Big Hero 6?

Oh that's right...

Steve Seagle and Duncan Roleau and which book did they work on?

Alpha Flight

 

That ends the discussion for me. It was meant to be AF and scheduling changed that but not who created and what was intended to be the first appearance.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

From talking to an inker worked on AF 17, AF 17 was/was to be the first appearance.

 

Sunfire and Big Hero Six # 1 came out three months prior to AF 17. There is nothing to talk about here. Not trying to be rude, but there just isn't. Let it go.

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and much of it, if not all is based on fact. I was merely stating the intended purpose and the creators which are nowhere to be found on any limited series.

 

It was meant to be AF I thought everyone was clear on this. The scheduling problem is why it wasn't. There was a nice story on this, but I cant find the link.

 

Well, I've read the whole thread now. Although jonjesper and I don't often agree, we do here. The important issue would be the first work by the creative team, Steve Seagle and Duncan Roleau.

[CBT]

given the state of the modern market and peoples lack of knowledge of the characters, whichever one CGC decides to label is the one the market will get behind.

[natevegas]

given the state of the modern market and peoples lack of knowledge of the characters, whichever one CGC decides to label is the one the market will get behind.

+ 1 Speaks the truth.

[divad]

given the state of the modern market and peoples lack of knowledge of the characters, whichever one CGC decides to label is the one the market will get behind.

 

Perhaps, but after stepping in doo-doo several times, CGC may just now decide it's better to be a follower than a leader.

[Silverdream]

Random thought...

Who created Big Hero 6?

Oh that's right...

Steve Seagle and Duncan Roleau and which book did they work on?

Alpha Flight

 

That ends the discussion for me. It was meant to be AF and scheduling changed that but not who created and what was intended to be the first appearance.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

From talking to an inker worked on AF 17, AF 17 was/was to be the first appearance.

 

Sunfire and Big Hero Six # 1 came out three months prior to AF 17. There is nothing to talk about here. Not trying to be rude, but there just isn't. Let it go.

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and much of it, if not all is based on fact. I was merely stating the intended purpose and the creators which are nowhere to be found on any limited series.

 

It was meant to be AF I thought everyone was clear on this. The scheduling problem is why it wasn't. There was a nice story on this, but I cant find the link.

 

Well, I've read the whole thread now. Although jonjesper and I don't often agree, we do here. The important issue would be the first work by the creative team, Steve Seagle and Duncan Roleau.

 

You are obviously entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else, and Im not here to argue against it, but I do have a question. Please clarify if I am misunderstanding you.

 

What im getting from what you are saying is: if a writer, or artist or both create a character or team but they do not work on the first published introduction/appearance of said character/team, that the first time the creators actually work on a book involving that character/team you consider that book the most important? Even if its three months after the introduction? Am I getting that right? You are surely entitled to that view, like I said im not here to argue that.

 

My question is this: Would you feel the same way if the books were a year apart? Two? Five? Twenty? Is there a time limit on your view?

 

I like how you said " the important" issue. Its a way to not argue the first appearance question. So I will ask that one directly. Do you agree that Sunfire and Big hero 6 # 1 is the first appearance of BH6 Divad?

 

Oh and one more thing, Seagle and Roleau are both credited on the first page of Sunfire and Big hero 6 # 1 for " Story Ideas". It would make sense that both talked with Scott lobdell and his artists on and off while they were working on the series, so their hands were actually on the limited series.. Just not in a full time capacity.

[Sensei Ryan]

I just don't understand the logic behind saying how a book that is published 3 months after the initial mini-series appearance could even remotely be considered a 1st appearance.

[natevegas]

I just don't understand the logic behind saying how a book that is published 3 months after the initial mini-series appearance could even remotely be considered a 1st appearance.

Is there a test tube with a label laying around anywhere?

[fastballspecial]

I just don't understand the logic behind saying how a book that is published 3 months after the initial mini-series appearance could even remotely be considered a 1st appearance.

 

I don't dispute that all. All I am saying is AF17 was meant to be the first appearance.

 

That doesn't matter a hill of beans with CGC though. Hope that clears it up.

 

 

[divad]

I just don't understand the logic behind saying how a book that is published 3 months after the initial mini-series appearance could even remotely be considered a 1st appearance.

 

I don't dispute that all. All I am saying is AF17 was meant to be the first appearance.

 

That doesn't matter a hill of beans with CGC though. Hope that clears it up.

 

 

Clearly, the "first appearance" aspect is quite silly in this example.

[divad]

Random thought...

Who created Big Hero 6?

Oh that's right...

Steve Seagle and Duncan Roleau and which book did they work on?

Alpha Flight

 

That ends the discussion for me. It was meant to be AF and scheduling changed that but not who created and what was intended to be the first appearance.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

From talking to an inker worked on AF 17, AF 17 was/was to be the first appearance.

 

Sunfire and Big Hero Six # 1 came out three months prior to AF 17. There is nothing to talk about here. Not trying to be rude, but there just isn't. Let it go.

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and much of it, if not all is based on fact. I was merely stating the intended purpose and the creators which are nowhere to be found on any limited series.

 

It was meant to be AF I thought everyone was clear on this. The scheduling problem is why it wasn't. There was a nice story on this, but I cant find the link.

 

Well, I've read the whole thread now. Although jonjesper and I don't often agree, we do here. The important issue would be the first work by the creative team, Steve Seagle and Duncan Roleau.

 

You are obviously entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else, and Im not here to argue against it, but I do have a question. Please clarify if I am misunderstanding you.

 

What im getting from what you are saying is: if a writer, or artist or both create a character or team but they do not work on the first published introduction/appearance of said character/team, that the first time the creators actually work on a book involving that character/team you consider that book the most important? Even if its three months after the introduction? Am I getting that right? You are surely entitled to that view, like I said im not here to argue that.

 

Yes, you are getting that right. It's what I wrote.

[divad]

My question is this: Would you feel the same way if the books were a year apart? Two? Five? Twenty? Is there a time limit on your view?

 

That is a a silly hypothetical, and you know it. I could easily construct any number of hypotheticals to make you look the fool, but I won't.

[divad]

I like how you said " the important" issue. Its a way to not argue the first appearance question. So I will ask that one directly. Do you agree that Sunfire and Big hero 6 # 1 is the first appearance of BH6 Divad?

 

First appearance is meaningless in this case. I'm glad that you liked the way I chose to characterize it. This "first" appearance obsession is just another fad that will fade away over time. (thumbs u

[Silverdream]

I like how you said " the important" issue. Its a way to not argue the first appearance question. So I will ask that one directly. Do you agree that Sunfire and Big hero 6 # 1 is the first appearance of BH6 Divad?

 

First appearance is meaningless in this case. I'm glad that you liked the way I chose to characterize it. This "first" appearance obsession is just another fad that will fade away over time. (thumbs u

 

Not sure why you think im trying to make you look like a fool. I was really just trying to understand your view on it. You are too defensive my friend.

 

You lost me now, chasing and collecting first appearances is not a fad. Never has been. Its actually one of the cornerstones of comic collecting. You put "first" in quotes as if there is some new type of first appearance, please elaborate.

 

We are not talking about a preview in another book, this isn't a cameo, nor is it some crazy retcon. This isn't about a first civilian appearance vs first appearance as the alter ego.

 

This is about the first published appearance of Big Hero Six in a Marvel comic with a full introduction and origin of the team and how it was formed, with the title partially devoted to them.

 

The fact that the guy who created them wanted to introduce the team in the book he was working on is completely irrelevant because it did not happen He was working for hire, what he created became marvel's property to do as they please with.

 

As an analogy, this is what I keep hearing " The car salesman intended to sell the new car to the Manning family, but the owner of the dealership stepped and said no, and decided that the new car is going to be sold to the Washington family because he feels its a better fit, but since the intention was to initially sell it to the Manning family, they should always be looked at as the real owners, even though the Washington family has owned the car for 16 years now"

 

 

If that doesn't make any sense ,forgive me, ive had a few.

 

Are we going in circles now? It's my favorite shape.

[divad]

We're just having fun.