Will non-key issues become nearly worthless??

[1Cool]

I do 10+ comic conventions a year as a seller/ vendor and I am definitely seeing new buyers of comicbooks. In fact I am seeing that a strong percentage of my buyers are female under age 25.

 

From your standpoint do you see a weakening in demand for non-key books or was the demand never really there for a Spiderman 172 or an Avengers 115 so its hard to say?

 

I am part of the posse that does shows with Artboy99.

 

To answer your questions:

 

Keys and 1st apps sell steadily. Outside of top tier titles, you have to discount common/non-key books to sell them.

 

WRT female collectors, it is a mix. Harley Quinn is by far the best selling book with them, followed by some other new 52 titles, but I am noticing a number that are chasing older books as well.

 

That being said, all you have to do to make $$$$ is buy a stack of the latest Harley issues from a LCS the day before the show, put them out at double to tripple cover, and watch them fly.

 

Well, I guess it depends on what books you are talking about. I don't have to discount non key silver age books to sell them. In fact, I have to restock stuff every show, and some shows, I restock a lot.

 

If you are talking about 1980s and 1990s books, then I would pretty much agree with you. But there time is coming.

 

What do you think the other dealers who expressed this concern in the OPG are doing wrong. I see most dealers at the cons having to discount their prices by 30% or more to get people to look through their boxes of back stock. And I seem to remember you having to discount a lot of the generic books in your sales thread and the hotter key books were grabbed in minutes. And you are a mega dealer - most of us don't have your customer base you have.

 

Honestly, I am not going to come on here and talk about what other dealers are doing wrong. Its disrespectful to them, and if there is something that I think I am doing better than them, I don't see any reason to help the competition. Bob, Harley, Jamie, Ted, Richard, JHV, and numerous other guys don't have trouble selling books.

 

 

I was thinking more in a general sense compared to calling anyone out specifically but I definetely can see why it may not make good business sense to give pointers to the competitors.

[kidcolt]

Depends on the meaning of the word worth. I am a reader and I buy stuff for that purpose. I enjoy the chase and the enjoyment of finding a book. I am not caught up in condition or even buying big ticket books for investment. If I had a bigger budget I might be but I have big financial expenses in other parts of my sons life so my budget is now limited. Books will never be worthless to me.

[1Cool]

I used the term worthless in order to incite a response from people but I'd hope most books would maintain some version of "worth". However, with more and more people looking for the "key" books then less money will be flowing into set making. I do think people who are selling VF or better silver-age books will be fine due to the general rarity of the books but the run of the mill VG issues will become less and less valuable and collected. I'd think a NM Silver Surfer 1 will do a lot better at increasing in value over the next 20 years compared to a NM run of Iron Man 4 - 10.

[jools&jim]

 

Depends on the meaning of the word worth. I am a reader and I buy stuff for that purpose. I enjoy the chase and the enjoyment of finding a book. I am not caught up in condition or even buying big ticket books for investment. If I had a bigger budget I might be but I have big financial expenses in other parts of my sons life so my budget is now limited. Books will never be worthless to me.

(thumbs u

 

Any veteran dealer will tell you that the bread-and-butter of this part of the comic book hobby (i.e., collecting what we used to call "back issues") has almost always been the "reader-collector" and/or the "run-builder" collector--comics devotees who could reliably be counted on for repeat purchases of non-key stock to complete their collections.

 

Or at least this was generally true. Now that we've entered a more key-driven and uber-high-grade-conscious era, it's pretty clear that the market dynamics have shifted a bit for a variety of reasons.

 

So are these guys (and gals) still out there -- the collectors who just want to finish their runs of Thor or Roy Rogers or whatever, and for whom grade is a secondary consideration at best?

 

I think so...but there may not be nearly as many of us as there used to be.

 

 

[rjrjr]

Depends on the meaning of the word worth. I am a reader and I buy stuff for that purpose. I enjoy the chase and the enjoyment of finding a book. I am not caught up in condition or even buying big ticket books for investment. If I had a bigger budget I might be but I have big financial expenses in other parts of my sons life so my budget is now limited. Books will never be worthless to me.

(thumbs u

 

Any veteran dealer will tell you that the bread-and-butter of this part of the comic book hobby (i.e., collecting what we used to call "back issues") has almost always been the "reader-collector" and/or the "run-builder" collector--comics devotees who could reliably be counted on for repeat purchases of non-key stock to complete their collections.

 

Or at least this was generally true. Now that we've entered a more key-driven and uber-high-grade-conscious era, it's pretty clear that the market dynamics have shifted a bit for a variety of reasons.

 

So are these guys (and gals) still out there -- the collectors who just want to finish their runs of Thor or Roy Rogers or whatever, and for whom grade is a secondary consideration at best?

 

I think so...but there may not be nearly as many of us as there used to be.

 

 

I would hate to be a dealer if the back issue market only existed on keys. There are only a finite number of keys to go around and I don't see a sustainable model for sellers if they only had keys to rely on.

[1Cool]

Depends on the meaning of the word worth. I am a reader and I buy stuff for that purpose. I enjoy the chase and the enjoyment of finding a book. I am not caught up in condition or even buying big ticket books for investment. If I had a bigger budget I might be but I have big financial expenses in other parts of my sons life so my budget is now limited. Books will never be worthless to me.

(thumbs u

 

Any veteran dealer will tell you that the bread-and-butter of this part of the comic book hobby (i.e., collecting what we used to call "back issues") has almost always been the "reader-collector" and/or the "run-builder" collector--comics devotees who could reliably be counted on for repeat purchases of non-key stock to complete their collections.

 

Or at least this was generally true. Now that we've entered a more key-driven and uber-high-grade-conscious era, it's pretty clear that the market dynamics have shifted a bit for a variety of reasons.

 

So are these guys (and gals) still out there -- the collectors who just want to finish their runs of Thor or Roy Rogers or whatever, and for whom grade is a secondary consideration at best?

 

I think so...but there may not be nearly as many of us as there used to be.

 

 

I would hate to be a dealer if the back issue market only existed on keys. There are only a finite number of keys to go around and I don't see a sustainable model for sellers if they only had keys to rely on.

 

I'd think a dealer would have to concentrate a bunch of time on getting the keys but also buying whole collections to appease the people still looking to complete sets. I'd guess the amount being offered for generic books would have to drop since the dealer could be sitting on the books for awhile waiting for the right buyer or they may need to offer deep discounts to get the books moving.

[rjrjr]

I do 10+ comic conventions a year as a seller/ vendor and I am definitely seeing new buyers of comicbooks. In fact I am seeing that a strong percentage of my buyers are female under age 25.

 

From your standpoint do you see a weakening in demand for non-key books or was the demand never really there for a Spiderman 172 or an Avengers 115 so its hard to say?

 

I am part of the posse that does shows with Artboy99.

 

To answer your questions:

 

Keys and 1st apps sell steadily. Outside of top tier titles, you have to discount common/non-key books to sell them.

 

WRT female collectors, it is a mix. Harley Quinn is by far the best selling book with them, followed by some other new 52 titles, but I am noticing a number that are chasing older books as well.

 

That being said, all you have to do to make $$$$ is buy a stack of the latest Harley issues from a LCS the day before the show, put them out at double to tripple cover, and watch them fly.

 

Well, I guess it depends on what books you are talking about. I don't have to discount non key silver age books to sell them. In fact, I have to restock stuff every show, and some shows, I restock a lot.

 

If you are talking about 1980s and 1990s books, then I would pretty much agree with you. But there time is coming.

 

What do you think the other dealers who expressed this concern in the OPG are doing wrong. I see most dealers at the cons having to discount their prices by 30% or more to get people to look through their boxes of back stock. And I seem to remember you having to discount a lot of the generic books in your sales thread and the hotter key books were grabbed in minutes. And you are a mega dealer - most of us don't have your customer base you have.

 

As a buyer who has gone to more than a few shows over the years, I'll give my take on this. Overstreet prices are high on many, many books. I'll be very specific with regards to one title I collect, Star Wars.

 

Here is the listing from the 2007 OSPG:

 

Issue GD VG FN VF VF/NM NM-

1 $7 $14 $21 $40 $60 $80

2-4 $3 $7 $10 $19 $27 $36

5,6 $2 $4 $6 $12 $16 $20

7-20 $2 $4 $6 $12 $16 $20

21-70 $1 $2 $3 $5 $7 $9

...

 

Now, I can see a Star Wars 1 commanding close to $80 today in NM condition, but in 2007, that comic routinely sold for $15-35 on eBay in NM condition. That is a key book however. Moving to non-keys, issue 2-4 will not get $36 in NM condition even today, but will sell for $10-20 on eBay. Issue 5-20, $5-10 in NM condition. Issues 21-70, $2-5 (the exception being 42 and 68 which are now broken out as semi-keys.) So, non-keys sell for roughly half (or even less) of what Overstreet lists them at.

 

Dealers who price the common books at OSPG prices are at a disadvantage with buyers who understand what is available and what the going prices are. If I walk by a booth that follows OSPG for prices, chances are I'll look for a few keys but won't stay to look at the non-keys. It is also important for a dealer to not label books as NM if they are not in NM condition as that is also a red flag for buyers. Several booths will have the non-key 70s and 80s comics priced at the $1-$5 range (and the conditions range from F - NM) and those booths usually have a mass of people looking through the boxes. Ed Robertson from Phoenix comes to mind here.

 

Some here are probably thinking, yeah, that's eBay NM though. I hate to say it, but I see lots of comics at shows that are graded just like those eBay NMs. I feel a book at a show can bring in a premium over a book bought on eBay though, but that premium is low for non-keys and much higher for keys but only if the book is strictly graded.

 

[PsylockeSmythe]

I consider myself a collector; so for me; when I go looking for books; I'm looking for issues that I'm missing in my collection to finish off runs.

 

The difference for me now is that 15 years ago I would be looking for any issues that I was missing from any of the titles that I collect. While now I'm concentrating on 3 to 5 different titles and trying to finish the run of those titles before I start looking for back issues from another title.

 

There are exceptions; but I've been able to pretty much keep my buying to those 3 to 5 titles; and it has enabled me to get to the point that I'm down to needing 1 issue for one title and 11 issues on another title.

 

So in short I do feel that there are people out there that are collectors and still looking to fill in runs.

 

Psy

 

 

[Bookery]

From a dealer... just the facts, ma'am.

 

 

 

Everybody's correct.

 

There is a bottom-point for everything. I can sell any 10-cent or 12-cent comic (and I mean any) that's intact for $1. Most of the folks buying these off me are dealers, so it's a safe assumption that they are getting $2-$5 for them at shows. I'm also thinking that any '40s comic... even rough... will bring at least $5.

 

I have one customer in his 70s still looking to complete runs of Joe Palooka and several western titles (generally looking to spend under $10).

 

On the other hand, it's true that most younger collectors are all about "keys". In fact, several of my biggest-dollar customers have gotten completely out of their non-key runs and are now looking only for the latest hot keys, sometimes even multiple copies. I get a half dozen or so phone calls every day where the opening line is always "so... any new keys in today?"

 

As for prices compared to OPG...

 

Most '60s non-key Marvels will sell for 25% to 50% off OPG... and again, I sell a lot to dealers, so adjust upward for final retail accordingly-- convention prices figure 75% of OPG to full guide depending upon the market. On the other hand, the vast vast majority of my '60s DCs sit unsold at 50% off (or more), with even big-market dealers ignoring them. Though I tend to agree with Dale-- these seem like a potentially untapped market, and very cheap right now for books 50 years old.

 

1950s Disney, Looney Tunes, romance, and assorted other humor are tough sells even at half or more off guide. But get back to the '40s, and even humor and Disney will sell. Westerns under $10 actually sell okay, regardless of guide... but higher-priced books are much harder, though the OPG has brought prices down a lot in the past few years to more realistic levels.

 

So yes, run collectors are diminishing, but not completely gone. And there is a tipping point.... as non-key books get cheaper, they become more affordable, and more accessible to run-builders, which eventually increases demand, and prices go back up again. And just as almost any '30s or '40s comic is looked upon as a key-equivalent, just because of age, so too will '50s and '60s comics... even offbeat companies... seem more attractive as age and scarcity build.

 

Post-1975 comics are a different matter, however, as from that point on everything was bagged and collected and protected... still many more copies of some of these out there than there are existing collectors. I suspect they will be much more "key"-driven for some time to come.

 

 

 

[1Cool]

Thanks for the great info. What your saying pretty much corresponds to what is happening in the sales thread. Keys are king.

[mysterio]

On the other hand, the vast vast majority of my '60s DCs sit unsold at 50% off (or more), with even big-market dealers ignoring them. Though I tend to agree with Dale-- these seem like a potentially untapped market, and very cheap right now for books 50 years old.

 

To take the other side of the argument here, people have been saying that SA DCs have been cheap, underappreciated, or due for a jump for a long time now. But that situation has never really changed in the 20 years that I've been paying attention. Of course the keys have jumped (though many argue that they are still cheap relative to Marvels) but the common issues stagnate for the most part. So what would change for people who don't want these common SA DCs to suddenly start seeking them out?

[porcupine48]

They will seek them out when everything else gets too expensive.

[Heronext]

They will seek them out when everything else gets too expensive.

 

Yes, there are many collectors of the frontier mindset, who break new ground in collecting. They are often the ones with a more limited budget. PCH used to not be worth anything. There are many such underdeveloped collecting avenues remaining.

[Bomber-Bob]

Where most people used to look at the left side of the label for the grade, they are now looking at the right side for a 1st appearance. It seems like eventually everything will become a 'key'.

[originalisbest]

They will seek them out when everything else gets too expensive.

 

Yes, there are many collectors of the frontier mindset, who break new ground in collecting. They are often the ones with a more limited budget. PCH used to not be worth anything. There are many such underdeveloped collecting avenues remaining even today.

 

PCH indeed used to be "cheap fun" (unfortunately, before I discovered it.) But it was hot for a good portion of time 15 years ago, then cooled significantly, and recently is surging hot again (for some books.) All the while I've enjoyed collecting them through thick and thin, and will continue to do so.

[zuulioso]

It has probably already been mentioned, but what makes me nervous is that it seems the bigger purchases (>$1000) seem to only be between dealers. I worry that all of this money going back and forth is just from one dealer/speculator to the next. How long can that be sustained?

 

The latest action 1 is another example. Are new collectors coming in and spending big dollars on keys?

 

I don't know. Just stating an opinion based on limited observation. I don't have any real data to support my thoughts.

[mysterio]

They will seek them out when everything else gets too expensive.

 

I'm not sure I buy this argument. Plenty of copper Marvels are cheap and you don't see demand or prices rising on them. There are plenty of books I could buy because they are cheap, but I have no interest in buying books I'm not otherwise interested in simply because they are cheap. I doubt many other collectors do either. If people don't have an interest in the material then where will the demand come from? And if said demand stems from the fact that that material is cheap, why would that demand be sustained if/when prices do start to rise?

[porcupine48]

I collect pre hero and pre code horror it is killing me that I can only get maybe one book for what I would get three for 5 years ago...

[lambfan68]

Post-1975 comics are a different matter, however, as from that point on everything was bagged and collected and protected... still many more copies of some of these out there than there are existing collectors. I suspect they will be much more "key"-driven for some time to come.

 

Well, even with post-1975 it depends what you're looking for. I'm trying to complete runs of every Harvey and Archie title from the year 1980 in decent shape (VFish). The problem is that these were reader issues more than they were collector issues.

 

Issues from that particular year hard to find at shows because of the perception that they'll never sell. You can find 'em online, but the pricing is over and above the superhero stuff. You can pick up pretty much any random DC comic from the same year in VF for $1 - $2. Archie and Harvey titles in that grade seem to run $4 - $6, and they're rarely in that shape.

 

 

[Define999]

They will seek them out when everything else gets too expensive.

 

Yes, there are many collectors of the frontier mindset, who break new ground in collecting. They are often the ones with a more limited budget. PCH used to not be worth anything. There are many such underdeveloped collecting avenues remaining.

 

Foreigns....