Will non-key issues become nearly worthless??

[Dale Roberts]

From a dealer... just the facts, ma'am.

 

 

 

Everybody's correct.

 

There is a bottom-point for everything. I can sell any 10-cent or 12-cent comic (and I mean any) that's intact for $1. Most of the folks buying these off me are dealers, so it's a safe assumption that they are getting $2-$5 for them at shows. I'm also thinking that any '40s comic... even rough... will bring at least $5.

 

I have one customer in his 70s still looking to complete runs of Joe Palooka and several western titles (generally looking to spend under $10).

 

On the other hand, it's true that most younger collectors are all about "keys". In fact, several of my biggest-dollar customers have gotten completely out of their non-key runs and are now looking only for the latest hot keys, sometimes even multiple copies. I get a half dozen or so phone calls every day where the opening line is always "so... any new keys in today?"

 

As for prices compared to OPG...

 

Most '60s non-key Marvels will sell for 25% to 50% off OPG... and again, I sell a lot to dealers, so adjust upward for final retail accordingly-- convention prices figure 75% of OPG to full guide depending upon the market. On the other hand, the vast vast majority of my '60s DCs sit unsold at 50% off (or more), with even big-market dealers ignoring them. Though I tend to agree with Dale-- these seem like a potentially untapped market, and very cheap right now for books 50 years old.

 

1950s Disney, Looney Tunes, romance, and assorted other humor are tough sells even at half or more off guide. But get back to the '40s, and even humor and Disney will sell. Westerns under $10 actually sell okay, regardless of guide... but higher-priced books are much harder, though the OPG has brought prices down a lot in the past few years to more realistic levels.

 

So yes, run collectors are diminishing, but not completely gone. And there is a tipping point.... as non-key books get cheaper, they become more affordable, and more accessible to run-builders, which eventually increases demand, and prices go back up again. And just as almost any '30s or '40s comic is looked upon as a key-equivalent, just because of age, so too will '50s and '60s comics... even offbeat companies... seem more attractive as age and scarcity build.

 

Post-1975 comics are a different matter, however, as from that point on everything was bagged and collected and protected... still many more copies of some of these out there than there are existing collectors. I suspect they will be much more "key"-driven for some time to come.

 

 

 

The biggest problem with your logic here Tim is you are dealing with a very finite group of customers in a economically depressed area. And I am not sure that is representative of the overall comic market.

 

To some extent, almost every brick and mortar store has a core group of customers, depending upon how large the area is. Once those customers have everything they want (or everything they can afford), then your ability to sell to them is vastly restricted. In cn economically depressed area, this market shrinks. In an economically growing area, a store might feasibly add new customers on a regular basis, so it can continue to sell the same product over and over.

 

However, the market as a whole is much larger and much more flexible and variable. There are people I sell DCs too, that years ago only collected Marvels, and vice versa. There are customers who used to buy Golden Age and now buy Silver and the reverse is true. There are customers who started buying moderns and transition to the older books. There are constantly new customers at practically every con. Almost every convention, I sell to people I have never sold to before. And many of these guys come back every time I come in to their town to buy from me. That's because they know I will have fresh, desirable material.

 

Most (not all) of the guys selling their stuff at 30 - 50 % off haven't had any new or desirable material in years. And if they have, then dealers have picked it clean before the show starts. Its just the way it is in most cases.

 

In any case, selling "good" books at a large discount is not a sustainable model, as there is simply not enough high quality product out there to maintain the business. Certainly, there should always be enough mid/low grade material to keep a discount business going.

 

 

 

 

[Bookery]

On the other hand, the vast vast majority of my '60s DCs sit unsold at 50% off (or more), with even big-market dealers ignoring them. Though I tend to agree with Dale-- these seem like a potentially untapped market, and very cheap right now for books 50 years old.

 

To take the other side of the argument here, people have been saying that SA DCs have been cheap, underappreciated, or due for a jump for a long time now. But that situation has never really changed in the 20 years that I've been paying attention. Of course the keys have jumped (though many argue that they are still cheap relative to Marvels) but the common issues stagnate for the most part. So what would change for people who don't want these common SA DCs to suddenly start seeking them out?

 

Reasonable points. But DC could (I say could) begin picking up. Right now there are only two (well, really 3) DC '60s titles that sell well as non-keys... Batman/Detective and Wonder Woman. However, the Batman/Superman movie could ignite more interest in World's Finest, there is already some pickup in Aquaman issues, a popular JLA movie could have crossover interest in an array of titles. We don't know yet how well the Flash TV show will do.

 

I don't see any of these starting an explosion of interest... even the Marvel movies have brought in only some new customers... but they certainly aren't beating down the doors for comics just because of the movies. But it doesn't seem difficult to believe there could be enough interest to get folks to buy into the $5 - $10 range that many of these can be found at now in moderate grade, at least beyond today's current level of interest.

 

But you're right... they could continue to fade into obsolescence, or there could eventually be a backlash against the neverending brooding and angst of today's comics for a simpler, lighter, and even kitchy form of storytelling that DC pretty much trademarked back then?

 

 

 

[Bookery]

The biggest problem with your logic here Tim is you are dealing with a very finite group of customers in a economically depressed area. And I am not sure that is representative of the overall comic market.

 

To some extent, almost every brick and mortar store has a core group of customers, depending upon how large the area is. Once those customers have everything they want (or everything they can afford), then your ability to sell to them is vastly restricted. In cn economically depressed area, this market shrinks. In an economically growing area, a store might feasibly add new customers on a regular basis, so it can continue to sell the same product over and over.

 

However, the market as a whole is much larger and much more flexible and variable. There are people I sell DCs too, that years ago only collected Marvels, and vice versa. There are customers who used to buy Golden Age and now buy Silver and the reverse is true. There are customers who started buying moderns and transition to the older books. There are constantly new customers at practically every con. Almost every convention, I sell to people I have never sold to before. And many of these guys come back every time I come in to their town to buy from me. That's because they know I will have fresh, desirable material.

 

Most (not all) of the guys selling their stuff at 30 - 50 % off haven't had any new or desirable material in years. And if they have, then dealers have picked it clean before the show starts. Its just the way it is in most cases.

 

In any case, selling "good" books at a large discount is not a sustainable model, as there is simply not enough high quality product out there to maintain the business. Certainly, there should always be enough mid/low grade material to keep a discount business going.

 

Yes, but you should know, we aren't a typical brick and mortar. If I depended on local sales, I'd have closed down long ago. Most of my sales go to dealers or out-of-town collectors. I'm essentially my own convention... with people traveling sometimes hundreds of miles just to shop here. Plus I talk to dealers from all over the country to get a feel for what is selling nationwide.

 

You might have misread part of my post however... as I was agreeing with a large part of what you say. Sure, I discount non-keys, even Marvels, 25%-50% off guide, but dealers like yourself buy a number of these, so, as I say, the real collector market on these has to be near guide, or the dealers wouldn't keep coming back. The tens of thousands of dollars per year I save on convention costs enables me to offer these discounts (plus a massive amount of unprocessed inventory built up over 30 years). But on the other hand, many of the DCs and non-hero books are not selling, even at 50% off, to all of these dealers coming in.

 

But no... I can't discount hot books like that, nor do I need to... even here in the middle of nowhere I can sell them quickly for near-GPA prices, and many of those DO get gobbled up at the local level (I've sold 4 Walking Dead #1s, a number of Marvel #1s, and dozens of late SA and BA "keys" just locally in the past few months). Even early DCs sell well... if they're 10-cent covers. It's just the 12-cent and beyond stuff that's pretty languid at present.

 

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

The biggest problem with your logic here Tim is you are dealing with a very finite group of customers in a economically depressed area. And I am not sure that is representative of the overall comic market.

 

To some extent, almost every brick and mortar store has a core group of customers, depending upon how large the area is. Once those customers have everything they want (or everything they can afford), then your ability to sell to them is vastly restricted. In cn economically depressed area, this market shrinks. In an economically growing area, a store might feasibly add new customers on a regular basis, so it can continue to sell the same product over and over.

 

However, the market as a whole is much larger and much more flexible and variable. There are people I sell DCs too, that years ago only collected Marvels, and vice versa. There are customers who used to buy Golden Age and now buy Silver and the reverse is true. There are customers who started buying moderns and transition to the older books. There are constantly new customers at practically every con. Almost every convention, I sell to people I have never sold to before. And many of these guys come back every time I come in to their town to buy from me. That's because they know I will have fresh, desirable material.

 

Most (not all) of the guys selling their stuff at 30 - 50 % off haven't had any new or desirable material in years. And if they have, then dealers have picked it clean before the show starts. Its just the way it is in most cases.

 

In any case, selling "good" books at a large discount is not a sustainable model, as there is simply not enough high quality product out there to maintain the business. Certainly, there should always be enough mid/low grade material to keep a discount business going.

 

Yes, but you should know, we aren't a typical brick and mortar. If I depended on local sales, I'd have closed down long ago. Most of my sales go to dealers or out-of-town collectors. I'm essentially my own convention... with people traveling sometimes hundreds of miles just to shop here. Plus I talk to dealers from all over the country to get a feel for what is selling nationwide.

 

You might have misread part of my post however... as I was agreeing with a large part of what you say. Sure, I discount non-keys, even Marvels, 25%-50% off guide, but dealers like yourself buy a number of these, so, as I say, the real collector market on these has to be near guide, or the dealers wouldn't keep coming back. The tens of thousands of dollars per year I save on convention costs enables me to offer these discounts (plus a massive amount of unprocessed inventory built up over 30 years). But on the other hand, many of the DCs and non-hero books are not selling, even at 50% off, to all of these dealers coming in.

 

But no... I can't discount hot books like that, nor do I need to... even here in the middle of nowhere I can sell them quickly for near-GPA prices, and many of those DO get gobbled up at the local level (I've sold 4 Walking Dead #1s, a number of Marvel #1s, and dozens of late SA and BA "keys" just locally in the past few months). Even early DCs sell well... if they're 10-cent covers. It's just the 12-cent and beyond stuff that's pretty languid at present.

 

 

 

Sure, and most of that post wasn't in response to you, just the first part.

 

The biggest problem in this thread is that people are speaking in far too general of terms. The base on non keys is huge. It contains high grade, low grade and everything in between. It contains golden age, silver age, bronze age, copper age, and moderns. It simply doesn't make any sense to say that non keys don't sell and leave it at that. I assure you nicer Silver Age non keys sell almost across the board. I would say that is largely true for bronze age as well. Once you get into copper age, I would think it would be hard to sell anything which is not super nice for more than a couple of dollars (talking non keys here remember). Golden Age is an animal all of its own, simply because there is simply not a lot of high grade out there, and the keys are super expensive. I sell common issues of the good girl fiction house, almost all ECs, almost all Atlas (though high grades sell better), tons of pre-code horror, lots of DCs (primarily books with nice eye appeal though), and the list could go on for a while. There are no shortage of buyers for some stuff. Others, the customer base has either passed away (Western, strip reprints, funny animal) or the material has become largely irrelevant. Some of it was never any good to begin with. Not to say no one collects it, but the base is smaller and smaller.

 

It is hard to have this conversation with any accuracy while discussing things in broad general terms.

[Wall-Crawler]

I was interested in the Marvel/DC discussion in terms of keys and the movies. Apologize if this has been stated but I wonder if some of the feeding frenzy with Marvel has to do with the WHO they are making or rumored to be making movies of?

 

With DC, they are behind in the movie game and their movies are seemingly going to focus on their big guns and from a comic book sense, the 1st appearances of those characters are already unattainable for most collectors.

 

On the flip side, you have Marvel making movies (or rumoured to be) and launching other works of arguably B and C level characters so "new" collectors are able to afford those first appearances even at skyrocketing prices.

 

1st Batman, Superman, Wonderwoman? Not so much.

[kidcolt]

Are these movies bringing in new readers that is driving the prices of key books (especially 1st and key appearances) or is it just old readers battling a hot market created from movie hype? Movie hype seems to be a major factor in the 1st app comic boom over the past few years. The non key books are not seeing the same results of this boom. Thus it would seem that the non keys are "worthless" as they are not climbing in value from this boom the same way the key books are. The non keys will continue to hold value and will likely not decrease whereas the keys that jumped will likely have a slight decrease in value.

[Dale Roberts]

Are these movies bringing in new readers that is driving the prices of key books (especially 1st and key appearances) or is it just old readers battling a hot market created from movie hype? Movie hype seems to be a major factor in the 1st app comic boom over the past few years. The non key books are not seeing the same results of this boom. Thus it would seem that the non keys are "worthless" as they are not climbing in value from this boom the same way the key books are. The non keys will continue to hold value and will likely not decrease whereas the keys that jumped will likely have a slight decrease in value.

 

A rising tide lifts all ships.

[kav]

The SA DC WF and Adventure runs with Swan art are incredibly undervalued. These are classics and the art is tremendous.

[shadroch]

Are these movies bringing in new readers that is driving the prices of key books (especially 1st and key appearances) or is it just old readers battling a hot market created from movie hype? Movie hype seems to be a major factor in the 1st app comic boom over the past few years. The non key books are not seeing the same results of this boom. Thus it would seem that the non keys are "worthless" as they are not climbing in value from this boom the same way the key books are. The non keys will continue to hold value and will likely not decrease whereas the keys that jumped will likely have a slight decrease in value.

 

A rising tide lifts all ships.

 

Just ask the folks of Nawlins about that.

[Speedy-D]

Are these movies bringing in new readers that is driving the prices of key books (especially 1st and key appearances) or is it just old readers battling a hot market created from movie hype? Movie hype seems to be a major factor in the 1st app comic boom over the past few years. The non key books are not seeing the same results of this boom. Thus it would seem that the non keys are "worthless" as they are not climbing in value from this boom the same way the key books are. The non keys will continue to hold value and will likely not decrease whereas the keys that jumped will likely have a slight decrease in value.

 

A rising tide lifts all ships.

 

Just ask the folks of Nawlins about that.

They weren't in ships.

[Bookery]

It is hard to have this conversation with any accuracy while discussing things in broad general terms.

 

True. So here is my take on some token areas... obviously I can't cover everything without reprinting the OPG, and this is off the top of my head based on my experience and what dealers are asking for. I'm missing plenty of stuff. And some of it's obvious, of course.

 

But to Dale's point... and let's face it, I'm not known for being Mr. Optimist most of the time... but still, the surprisingly varied range that falls into either hot or steady sellers is pretty huge. On the other hand, there are plenty of dead or nearly dead-in-the-water books to make the point that others are saying as well.

 

Hot = books that sell almost immediately, usually at or even significantly above guide. The catch... almost impossible to keep stocked unless priced too outrageously.

 

Moderate = books that may or may not sell fast, but are steady over time and tough to stock in depth at any given moment. Will sell around guide or at modest discounts.

 

Slow = generally won't sell anywhere near guide, and even then only to the scattered niche buyer here and there.

 

Of course... anything will sell if discounted far enough... but that's a different ballgame.

 

HOT:

 

-- silver & bronze-age keys in almost any grade

-- Marvel hero (even non-keys) 1962-1964

-- pre-code horror

-- code-horror Atlas in 4.0 or above

-- post-War good-girl covers... even humor

-- WW2 hero covers... the more over-the-top the better

-- 10-cent hero books in high grade

-- 1950s Wonder Woman in most grades

-- most Neal Adams covers

-- 1940s Archie titles

-- Timely hero books

-- a number of Better/Nedor titles

-- Fiction House in higher grade

-- most '60s to early '70s Batman/Detective issues

-- underground originals with R. Crumb art

 

MODERATE TO STEADY SELLERS:

 

-- Amazing Spider-Man non-keys up to #130

-- DC horror comics late '60s early '70s (high-grades even hotter)

-- most Marvel 1960s non-key hero books in higher grades

-- Fiction House in average grades

-- 1950s DC heroes in other than high grade

-- 1950s DC war comics

-- earlier Harvey humor

-- Marvel westerns

-- other westerns if under $10

-- John Wayne covers (Toby's probably falling into the "hot" category)

-- pre-code EC Comics (with some being hot sellers)

-- Timely humor books

-- 1950s Archies

 

SLOW:

 

-- Most comics 1976 and beyond

-- Fawcett hero books unless very early

-- Classics Illustrated

-- more expensive westerns

-- most romance (except for Baker or Kirby)

-- strip reprint GA like Ace, Popular, King, etc.

-- Disney (especially 1950-on)

-- Looney Tunes & related

-- non-hero 3-D comics

-- post-code EC Comics

-- most underground comics without R. Crumb art

-- most Lev Gleason books

-- Big-Little Books

-- Platinum Age

-- most movie and TV tie-ins with a few exceptions

-- 1960s-1970s Archies

-- True Life type comics

-- Treasure Chest and many misc. giveaways

 

 

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

It is hard to have this conversation with any accuracy while discussing things in broad general terms.

 

True. So here is my take on some token areas... obviously I can't cover everything without reprinting the OPG, and this is off the top of my head based on my experience and what dealers are asking for. I'm missing plenty of stuff. And some of it's obvious, of course.

 

But to Dale's point... and let's face it, I'm not known for being Mr. Optimist most of the time... but still, the surprisingly varied range that falls into either hot or steady sellers is pretty huge. On the other hand, there are plenty of dead or nearly dead-in-the-water books to make the point that others are saying as well.

 

Hot = books that sell almost immediately, usually at or even significantly above guide. The catch... almost impossible to keep stocked unless priced too outrageously.

 

Moderate = books that may or may not sell fast, but are steady over time and tough to stock in depth at any given moment. Will sell around guide or at modest discounts.

 

Slow = generally won't sell anywhere near guide, and even then only to the scattered niche buyer here and there.

 

Of course... anything will sell if discounted far enough... but that's a different ballgame.

 

HOT:

 

-- silver & bronze-age keys in almost any grade

-- Marvel hero (even non-keys) 1962-1964

-- pre-code horror

-- code-horror Atlas in 4.0 or above

-- post-War good-girl covers... even humor

-- WW2 hero covers... the more over-the-top the better

-- 10-cent hero books in high grade

-- 1950s Wonder Woman in most grades

-- most Neal Adams covers

-- 1940s Archie titles

-- Timely hero books

-- a number of Better/Nedor titles

-- Fiction House in higher grade

-- most '60s to early '70s Batman/Detective issues

-- underground originals with R. Crumb art

 

MODERATE TO STEADY SELLERS:

 

-- Amazing Spider-Man non-keys up to #130

-- DC horror comics late '60s early '70s (high-grades even hotter)

-- most Marvel 1960s non-key hero books in higher grades

-- Fiction House in average grades

-- 1950s DC heroes in other than high grade

-- 1950s DC war comics

-- earlier Harvey humor

-- Marvel westerns

-- other westerns if under $10

-- John Wayne covers (Toby's probably falling into the "hot" category)

-- pre-code EC Comics (with some being hot sellers)

-- Timely humor books

-- 1950s Archies

 

SLOW:

 

-- Most comics 1976 and beyond

-- Fawcett hero books unless very early

-- Classics Illustrated

-- more expensive westerns

-- most romance (except for Baker or Kirby)

-- strip reprint GA like Ace, Popular, King, etc.

-- Disney (especially 1950-on)

-- Looney Tunes & related

-- non-hero 3-D comics

-- post-code EC Comics

-- most underground comics without R. Crumb art

-- most Lev Gleason books

-- Big-Little Books

-- Platinum Age

-- most movie and TV tie-ins with a few exceptions

-- 1960s-1970s Archies

-- True Life type comics

-- Treasure Chest and many misc. giveaways

 

 

 

 

 

I actually went to an auction for a bit on Saturday morning that had about 110 really nice Big Little Books, but there had to be about 5000 items they were selling individually, and they said they were going to auction the books individually, and when I heard that, I split because it would take an eternity. I bet they brought less than 5 bucks each, but could waste a day on it.

[kav]

I haven't noticed Neal Adams covers to be especially valuable except for certain iconic covers. You can find plenty of books like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-SUPERMAN-208-1968-FINE-NEAL-ADAMS-COVER-SILVER-AGE-COMIC-/161410896397?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item2594d6d20d&nma=true&si=aRt6FXDJNjzpRrXM0rIH5cB4o8Y%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Bookery]

I haven't noticed Neal Adams covers to be especially valuable except for certain iconic covers. You can find plenty of books like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-SUPERMAN-208-1968-FINE-NEAL-ADAMS-COVER-SILVER-AGE-COMIC-/161410896397?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item2594d6d20d&nma=true&si=aRt6FXDJNjzpRrXM0rIH5cB4o8Y%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Yeah... I guess I should have said "many" instead of "most"... but his even less-iconic Batman covers will generally sell well, as will a number of his Marvels.

 

'60s-'70s Supermans are just tough sells... and none of the movies over the years seemed to help them much.

 

[Bookery]

I actually went to an auction for a bit on Saturday morning that had about 110 really nice Big Little Books, but there had to be about 5000 items they were selling individually, and they said they were going to auction the books individually, and when I heard that, I split because it would take an eternity. I bet they brought less than 5 bucks each, but could waste a day on it.

 

I'm still a sucker for a lot of the stuff on my "slow" list... I think a vintage dealer should carry as much variety as possible. And I'm going to accumulate it anyway when I pick up large, varied collections. But I'm with you... I might still go for a BLB lot against my better judgment... but I wouldn't want to bid on them individually.

 

I probably have dozens of BLBs buried in boxes in storage beyond what's on my shelves. Which reminds me... I forgot to add one category to my "Slow" list...

 

Books buried out-of-sight in unmarked boxes where no one can get to them... for some reason these have always been amongst my slowest sellers!

 

 

[kav]

I haven't noticed Neal Adams covers to be especially valuable except for certain iconic covers. You can find plenty of books like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-SUPERMAN-208-1968-FINE-NEAL-ADAMS-COVER-SILVER-AGE-COMIC-/161410896397?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item2594d6d20d&nma=true&si=aRt6FXDJNjzpRrXM0rIH5cB4o8Y%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Yeah... I guess I should have said "many" instead of "most"... but his even less-iconic Batman covers will generally sell well, as will a number of his Marvels.

 

'60s-'70s Supermans are just tough sells... and none of the movies over the years seemed to help them much.

Yep his batman covers seem to do well no love for Superman-of course he seemed to take more care with those Batman covers for some reason. This is one of my faves:

[FineCollector]

SLOW:

 

-- Fawcett hero books unless very early

 

I love this thread! Now that I know who flushes the stuff I'm collecting, I can clean up in a place like this!

[lou_fine]

I think the trend has always been there. It's just that it has become more pronounced over the years. The gap in value between the keys and commons become greater as time passes.

 

+1

 

As long as I have been collecting, this trend has always been in place.

 

As time goes by and the older books become more expensive, this gap will indeed increase between the keys and the common books. For example, who can afford to try to complete a GA run now as the books are just so expensive. The same is happening with the early SA books as they are also becomng big ticket items.

 

When books become too expensive, collectors generally tend to focus in on the keys as they are the ones that will continue to go up more in value relative to the common books. Likewise, in a down market, the keys are generally the ones that will continue to retain their values relative to the non-key issues.

 

With the more recent books such as the BA and up, collectors can still afford to try to complete a full or partial run without having to dig too deep into their wallets.

[kav]

WHEN will SA Superman family books take off?.....

[Phicks]

WHEN will SA Superman family books take off?.....

 

Never. They were sooooo badly done. Stiff art from Curt Swan and Wayne Boring. Horribly written. It was mind boggling that any company would allow such untalented people to churn out terrible stories for a flagship character for decades that had so much merchandising power. They were just begging for Marvel to invent something much better in comics, and it finally happened.

 

I am a completionist collector, but I will not touch the Superman titles, or Wonder Woman. Boring, awful stuff.