Hierarchy of the Top Golden Age Superhero Comics (2015 Edition)

[Big Moov]

An origin story can be interesting....but does it really make a comic more valuable or desirable? Maybe in some cases, and maybe to some people. But when a character has already become successful, and THEN they decide to give him an origin....I don't know; I would rather have an earlier issue when the character was still in his infancy. Before he was popular. That's more interesting to me.

 

Also, are we saying that these Top-10 lists are for regular-issue comics, and that we're putting ashcans and promotionals into a different category? Or do you guys really think Whiz #2 is more valuable than Flash #1 ashcan Captain Thunder/Marvel? I'm not talking about past prices; I'm asking what you're opinion would be.

[sfcityduck]

Also, are we saying that these Top-10 lists are for regular-issue comics, and that we're putting ashcans and promotionals into a different category? Or do you guys really think Whiz #2 is more valuable than Flash #1 ashcan Captain Thunder/Marvel? I'm not talking about past prices; I'm asking what you're opinion would be.

 

I think your top 10 can encompass whatever you want. The OP said:

 

In past years, I've done hierarchy lists ranking "the top" Golden Age comic books. Naturally, lists of this nature are subjective and will vary depending on one's criteria. Are we talking historical significance, modern day relevance, scarcity, fair market value, coolness, story-telling, artwork, personal nostalgia, etc.? There are so many variables to consider with no real right or wrong answer. My criteria wasn't scientific, but I tried to consider elements from all the aforementioned areas.

 

But, to answer your question, if the question is monetary value, than the only way to gauge that is by past prices. Something is only objectively worth what someone has paid for it. And, based on past experience, Whiz 2(1) appears to be worth more money than the Fawcett Flash and Thrill ashcans in the eyes of collectors actually buying those comics.

 

[MrBedrock]

do you guys really think Whiz #2 is more valuable than Flash #1 ashcan Captain Thunder/Marvel?

yes

[G.A.tor]

do you guys really think Whiz #2 is more valuable than Flash #1 ashcan Captain Thunder/Marvel?

yes

concur

 

[VintageComics]

do you guys really think Whiz #2 is more valuable than Flash #1 ashcan Captain Thunder/Marvel?

yes

concur

 

It shouldn't be. But it is.

 

 

[Big Moov]

To reiterate: My question is not if Whiz #2 IS more valuable than the Fawcett Flash #1 ashcan. My question is SHOULD IT BE?

 

I just want your personal opinions. You can give a reason too if you want. Thanks.

 

(Also, if you own a Whiz #2, you should probably mention it in the interest of full disclosure .)

[markseifert]

To reiterate: My question is not if Whiz #2 IS more valuable than the Fawcett Flash #1 ashcan. My question is SHOULD IT BE?

 

Which version of the Fawcett Flash 1 ashcan?

[G.A.tor]

Ashcans are niche in our hobby

 

Some have specialized in collecting them (moondog) but they lack overall market appeal and demand and hence are worth considerably less

 

Historical importance? Sure , to the extent they paved the way to the character we love to collect.

But many view them as a mere formality and semi interesting conversation piece in our hobby

 

They are neat but don't have the mass appeal or value to most collectors because they were never mass produced or sold , no "connection" (emotional or otherwise) and so their current audience is limited and likely will be

[gino2paulus2]

do you guys really think Whiz #2 is more valuable than Flash #1 ashcan Captain Thunder/Marvel?

yes

concur

 

It shouldn't be. But it is.

 

 

well since the ashcan is simply promotional or for copyright reasons which in this case they didn't even land the rights to either the title or the character so it could be described as a failed ashcan but how about this...what if the original art were to arise for the ashcan? has this ever happened before? I ask honestly because I find it intriguing and would like to expland my knowledge of these historical peices...what would something like that fetch? I'm not asking the original art to Whiz 2 (1) the actual OA to the ashcan itself because this is a pretty neat little book either way?

[RedFury]

I own a Whiz 2(1), so feel free to discount my opinion.

 

But yes, I think Whiz 2(1) should be worth much more than the ashcan. To me, the ashcan is a cool historical curiosity akin to a preliminary design or rough draft. It was created for a legal reason, and was never published or distributed, nor was it meant to be.

 

That being said, I do think the Flash Comics ashcan with Captain Thunder on the cover is the coolest of all the ashcans I've ever seen and I would love to add it to my collection!

[markseifert]

and was never published or distributed, nor was it meant to be.

 

I'm being pedantic as I certainly know what you're saying , but they were technically published and distributed -- and the point of making them was to publish and "distribute" them, so they could claim use in the registration paperwork.

 

I think the copies out there that are not the ones that Fishler got from CBS came from being sent to Fawcett wholesaler and/or newsdealer accounts.

 

Kind of funny, but the below was out there in plain site all that time...

 

[markseifert]

Some have specialized in collecting them (moondog) but they lack overall market appeal and demand and hence are worth considerably less

 

Historical importance? Sure , to the extent they paved the way to the character we love to collect.

But many view them as a mere formality and semi interesting conversation piece in our hobby

 

They are neat but don't have the mass appeal or value to most collectors because they were never mass produced or sold , no "connection" (emotional or otherwise) and so their current audience is limited and likely will be

 

Putting that to the ultimate test:

 

If the Jan 3, 1937 "publication" referenced below were to surface, and presuming it was an ashcan (court documents indicate at least one and I think probably more than one comic-like Superman mock-up publications were made prior to Action 1), would it sell for more than an Action 1 in equivalent grade?

 

[Bookery]

[Does anybody here have a Beeton's? Do you have one, Bookery?]

 

I own ALL of them. That's why you never see them for sale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[markseifert]

[Does anybody here have a Beeton's? Do you have one, Bookery?]

 

I own ALL of them. That's why you never see them for sale.

 

 

 

So you're the one!

[RedFury]

[Does anybody here have a Beeton's? Do you have one, Bookery?]

 

I own ALL of them. That's why you never see them for sale.

 

 

 

So you're the one!

 

This website says there are only 33 known copies extant, 21 of which are in libraries.

 

Beeton's Christmas Annual 1887

 

R1. Emory University (Atlanta, Georgia)

R2. Harvard University (Cambridge, Massachusetts)

R3. Indiana University (Bloomington, Indiana)

R4. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R5. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R6. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R7. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R8. The Newberry Library (Chicago, Illinois)

R9. Occidental College (Los Angeles, California)

R10. University of Oxford (Oxford, England)

R11. Princeton University (Princeton, New Jersey)

R12. National Library of Scotland (Edinburgh, Scotland)

R13. Stanford University (Stanford, California)

R14. University of Texas (Austin, Texas)

R15. Toronto Reference Library (Toronto, Canada)

R16. Yale University (New Haven, Connecticut)

R17. Yale University (New Haven, Connecticut)

R18. Yale University (New Haven, Connecticut)

R19. Estate of Dame Jean Conan Doyle

R20. Not Identified (Hall copy)

R21. Constantine Rossakis

R22. Not Identified (Pond copy)

R23. Portsmouth Central Library (Portsmouth, England)

R24. Garth Hazlett

R25. Not Identified (Liebman copy)

R26. Alan Denner

R27. Private Collector

R28. Not Identified (Blair copy)

R29. University of Wyoming (Laramie, Wyoming)

R30. Not Identified (Pimlico copy)

R31. Private collector in England (Oxfam copy)

R32. Not Identified (Australian Book Auctions copy)

R33. Tulane University (New Orleans, Louisiana)

[markseifert]

R4. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R5. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R6. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R7. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

 

I was shown a group shot of these recently. Ridiculous.

[RedFury]

R4. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R5. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R6. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

R7. University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

 

I was shown a group shot of these recently. Ridiculous.

[MrBedrock]

Not only is Whiz 2 now more expensive than Flash 1 ashcan, but it will always continue to be. The price is a function of collectors' demand, and the collectors will always demand the news-stand distributed Whiz 2 over the in-house distributed Flash 1. While the Flash may be more rare, historically significant, and certainly very cool, at the end of the day it is not what the general public at that time bought cherished and popularized, and it is not what the hobby now desires.

 

Unless Big-Moov has such amazing PR skills that he can change the mind of every collector and fan of Captain Marvel from the last seven decades I don't really see how an equivalently graded copy of the Flash ashcan can ever overtake a Whiz 2 in sales price.

[Big Moov]

Believe it or not, I'm not just saying this because I'm selling this comic. I really don't understand why Whiz #2 would be more valuable than Flash #1 ashcan Captain Thunder/Marvel.

 

If I'm going to sell a comic, I'm going to sell the one I like the least, and keep the ones I like better. I'm the guy who sold the Whiz #2 CGC 6.0 (for $176K). I had no problem selling it, as I like my Flash #1 way better. I remember at the time, there was a thread on here (of which I stayed out of for the most part) saying how Whiz #2 was not that great, that Action Comics even up to #30 were better, etc. I simply think that the conventional wisdom is often times 100% wrong. The hobby is still young enough that major price-corrections are still happening.

 

I turned-around and used part of the money to buy the More Fun #73 Mile High copy. Ironically, there have been a couple threads on here that said how that comic would never amount to anything.

 

Selling this comic is WAY more painful. But....I still own the Thrill Comics #1 ashcan with Captain Marvel CGC 9.0. So I'm still hanging onto a piece of the Cap. I hope I never sell it; don't plan to. I like it better because there's only 3 or 4 of them in existence. Nice to have a Gerber 10. But the owner of the Flash #1 can say that his was probably printed first....same cover date, but few days ahead most likely.

 

I don't see how anyone can say Flash #1 is not a real comic. Whiz starts at issue number 2....so this is clearly issue number 1. Combine that with 8 existing copies vs. hundreds of Whiz #2's......I just don't understand how you can value Whiz #2 higher. Ernie Gerber says this Flash #1 ashcan has an RVI of 9000, which is way more than most of the comics in these Top-10 lists. So I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

 

I really don't like sounding-off too much about this....but I have a strong opinion about it. I appreciate everyone's opinion, no matter what it is. I've been biting my tongue about this for a long time. I feel the same way about Motion Picture Funnies Weekly #1 with Sub-mariner. A Gerber 9 with a major-key first appearance; to me that's hard to beat. Lastly, if my auction goes bad, I'll be fine. I'm sure the market will adjust sometime; maybe I'll wait 20 years and then sell the Thrill . No time soon though, that's for sure.

[markseifert]

But the owner of the Flash #1 can say that his was probably printed first....same cover date, but few days ahead most likely.

 

Fwiw, I think there's no doubt about this.

 

They did not publish the Flash logo for opposition in the USPTO Gazette, which suggests they found out that DC beat them to it at the 11th hour, and then moved on immediately to Thrill.

 

[There's probably a fun story yet to be uncovered about what Ned Pines did when he found out about Thrill. Pines was aggressive and an adept operator in terms of the industry politics of his day]

 

Honestly, in terms of what "should" be more desirable, I think you're totally right about this -- I'd much rather have the ashcan. No question.

 

*****

 

And really, selling the Whiz 2 6.0 for $176k and using some of the money to buy the MF 73 Church copy... hats off to you on both those transactions.

 

I'm sure you've had some eye-popping offers on that MF 73. Or are about to.