The Ultimate Dennis the Menace Thread 6 6

[BillyBatson4360]

Okay, did a little research and as near as I can tell Joey made his debut in the Dennis comic strip somewhere from mid 1957 to early 1958. He didn't make it to the comic book until issue # 31, cover dated November 1958 (which means it was probably on sale some time in the mid-summer of '58). This would indicate that the character was created for the newspaper strip.

 

Also, it looks like Joey went through a design change from the time he was introduced. Here's a panel featuring the early version of Joey. It comes from the paperback collection "In This Corner..." As these paperback collection don't contain every Dennis panel - nor are any of the panels dated, it's impossible to pin down the exact date of this cartoon or whether or not it represents Joey's first appearance.

 

 

BTW Margaret made her debut a year earlier.

[BillyBatson4360]

Just a few short months later, Joey had morphed into the character we all know. This cartoon is from the paperback collection "Teacher's Threat." It features cartoons from 1958 and 1959 and Joey is used in a lot of them.

 

[BillyBatson4360]

I'm pretty confident that this panel represents Gina's first appearance in the Dennis newspaper strip. It also comes from "Teacher's Threat," which would place her debut somewhere from mid 1958 to early 1959. Her comic book debut came in issue #39, cover dated November 1959. Again, this indicates she was created in the newspaper strip and then moved into the comic book.

 

[BillyBatson4360]

Finally, this doesn't have anything to do with Dennis' supporting cast, but in my research I came across this cartoon and thought those of us who are comic book fans (especially of 1950's "Seduction of Innocent" era comics) would get a kick out of it.

 

[tth2]

Seeing this cover reminds me that there was a travel issue to England too. But I can't remember if it was a Wiseman/Toole production or a later work. I guess it wasn't a giant, since it wasn't mentioned in any of the earlier posts. Joe or Billy?

[tth2]

Billy, thanks for a great summary of the back-ups. The ones I remember are: Punky, Screamy Mimi (I share your ambivalence for this character), Joey (of course), and Grandpa (I really liked those stories because it was fun to see how young kids projected images from stories).

[BillyBatson4360]

No it was not a Wiseman issue. I'll let Joe look up the issue number. I think I have it somewhere. I picked quite a few non-Wisman issues buying Dennis comics in lots when I was assembling my collection. I haven't looked through most of them. But I seem to recall a Dennis Visits London cover somewhere in there.

[tth2]

Finally, this doesn't have anything to do with Dennis' supporting cast, but in my research I came across this cartoon and thought those of us who are comic book fans (especially of 1950's "Seduction of Innocent" era comics) would get a kick out of it.

 

Great comic strip! And thanks for posting all of the others, Billy!

[ComicBookGuy]

Seeing this cover reminds me that there was a travel issue to England too. But I can't remember if it was a Wiseman/Toole production or a later work. I guess it wasn't a giant, since it wasn't mentioned in any of the earlier posts. Joe or Billy?

 

Tim, you are correct, there was a Dennis the Menace in London that came out in January 1971 and was reprinted many times "by popular demand," according to the publishers. It was written by Fred Toole but drawn by Frank Hall who took Wiseman's place for all the big projects like this and the Dennis in Paris issue. The first printing of the London issue is in the Bonus Magazine Series #88, which, I believe, Bill posted on his list of the giants that went to #110. I am in the process of indexing this entire run, which is why I haven't been posting much lately.

By the way, I am very envious of Mica's Dennis books! Since they are well read he can open them to any page and scan them for all to enjoy, while mine sit in mylars unopened! And I am not being sarcastic -- I'm 100% serious and thinking of purchasing a low grade run of some issues just so I can scan the stories.

Joe

[ComicBookGuy]

Okay, did a little research and as near as I can tell Joey made his debut in the Dennis comic strip somewhere from mid 1957 to early 1958. He didn't make it to the comic book until issue # 31, cover dated November 1958 (which means it was probably on sale some time in the mid-summer of '58). This would indicate that the character was created for the newspaper strip.

 

Also, it looks like Joey went through a design change from the time he was introduced. Here's a panel featuring the early version of Joey. It comes from the paperback collection "In This Corner..." As these paperback collection don't contain every Dennis panel - nor are any of the panels dated, it's impossible to pin down the exact date of this cartoon or whether or not it represents Joey's first appearance.

 

 

BTW Margaret made her debut a year earlier.

 

Bill, thanks for sharing!

 

You're doing a great job of tapping into various aspects of Dennis I wouldn't have thought of. In Ketcham's bio he mentions the creation of the various characters but does not elaborate much on Joey in terms of where he came from or when he first appeared, so I would say your information is probably as close as we can get to the truth at this point. If and when the Fantagraphics series due out in Sept. prints EVERY daily panel from 3/14/51 on, then we can see for sure when the first appearances of each character occurred for sure. An interesting story is that Ketcham asked his son Dennis what the dog (the cartoon dog, that is) should be named, and his son said, "Ruff!"

 

The list of Dennis spin-off characters is interesting. You are quite the Dennis scholar! As a kid I was always annoyed by those other clearly inferior strips filling out the comic I had bought with the idea that the comic was all Dennis from cover to cover. None of them were even remotely entertaining for me. I will note their appearances as I index, but that's about the extent of my interest in these characters personally. As to why they appeared, you may be correct about the mailing rule. For example, now items that contain ads cannot be sent media mail. I would also think that since Dennis was such a popular comic that the publishers wanted to launch other characters from it to perhaps create another comic universe like that of Disney or Warner Brothers. It wouldn't have been a bad idea in that it would have been all kid-based instead of cartoon-based stories, much like Harvey and Archie created, but the problem seemed to be that the executions of the stories weren't that great, with the possible exception of the Joey strips.

 

Joe

[escape-migration]

I'm just overwhelmed by the fantastic wealth of scans here in the past couple of days. BIG hello and welcome to Mica, thanks for sharing your scans as well. I loved the CBM article posted (thanks Buttock!), and look forward to all the stuff Joe and Billy are sharing with us, as always. You guys rock!

 

The following thumbnails are the first half of Dennis #1 from 1953. I picked it up recently and decided to scan and share with anyone who may never get the chance to read the stories contained inside it. As with the Joey story I posted a few weeks back, just click on the thumbnails, and you'll be directed to a larger scan of the page. (If you chose to save the images, just delete the the last 3 characters of the filename; ImageShack, my image host, adds them on automatically. Just remove them if you choose to save the files to your computer).

 

I realize 18 thumbnails in one post takes up some room on this page, but I really didn't know any other way to share these. Hope its ok.

 

And Joe? Could you PM me your email address? I want to let you know which issues of the regular series I own and will be able to help with. Thanks!

 

And now, Dennis the Menace #1! I'll post the rest of the book this weekend hopefully.

 

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[ComicBookGuy]

An awesome feat, Escape! Thanks for scanning the Dennis #1 for everyone. It's not like anyone can just go and get one very easily to read, so I'm sure everyone is very appreciative. This looks like the one that sold on ebay back in March for about $300 if I recall. Whether it is or not, it looks like a sweet copy - congratulations! It is the grail of the Dennis books.

 

By the way, speaking of eBay, I came across something AMAZING on eBay, a giveaway I have never seen ONCE on eBay or anywhere. It is not listed in the guide, and I assume no one here knows about it -- or you guys were just too nice to tell me I missed it when I did my supposedly "thorough" cataloging of the Dennis giveaways. I will provide the link to the auction, which I won for a paltry sum. Thank God people are not that fanatical about Dennis cause I put a bid on this that you wouldn't believe to be sure I secured it. I will post it here on the boards when I receive it in the mail. Here is the link:

 

An EXTREMELY RARE DENNIS GIVEAWAY???

 

Has anyone seen or heard of this? This is the first I have ever seen or heard of it. I will run it by Doug Supila to see what he thinks. As far as I'm concerned, this thing makes Dennis & the Bible Kids #10 look like Hulk 181.

 

Joe

[ComicBookGuy]

Who saw THIS auction? A guy puts a near complete run of Dennis the Menace on eBay as a one day auction. Why one day? You'd think he would have wanted some exposure. This may be the biggest run of Dennis books I've ever seen together at once for sale. I thought about bidding on it to resell, but I just don't have the time. I'm sure I could have made some money on this too, especially if I filled in the missing issues and sold it as a complete set.

 

137 issue run of Dennis on eBay

 

Interesting to note that the missing issues are primarily at the very beginning and very end of the run, confirming what I have believed: that those are the most difficult to find. He did have a #3 though, which is impressive in any shape.

 

Joe

[BillyBatson4360]

First, Joe, congratulations on the rare giveaway. I've never seen it either.

 

Second, I agree that the guy who put up that Dennis collection on eBay made a major mistake by only offering it for one day. I also notice that his # 3 was pretty beat up as well. Does anyone own a copy of # 3 in Very Fine or better? Does one exist?

 

I think the early Dennis books are so rare (especially in nicer grades) because Dennis was a "starter" comic. He was the very first comic I bought regularly. And it was quite a few years before I graduated to the super-hero books. As such, I think the Dennis books got read and re-read by a very young clientele. I know my original collection got beat up.

 

I have also never seen the early issues (# 1 - 20) go for less than Guide and usually for considerably more than Guide. I think very, very few copies of the early issues are bought and sold by dealers in any given year. The copies that I obtained, I got from collector-to-collector sales and from eBay auctions. I'm hoping that the Guide gives some serious re-evaluation to this title in the near future as I think the earliest issues have a market value that is considerably north of the values stated in the Guide.

 

BTW, I'm beginning to think that issue # 2 is even rarer than # 3 and maybe even as rare as # 1. Which makes it all the more incredible that the first issue I bought when I began to rebuild my collection was # 2.

[tth2]

I think the early Dennis books are so rare (especially in nicer grades) because Dennis was a "starter" comic. He was the very first comic I bought regularly. And it was quite a few years before I graduated to the super-hero books. As such, I think the Dennis books got read and re-read by a very young clientele. I know my original collection got beat up.

Billy, that's exactly right. And, because it was viewed as a kid's book by the "serious" superhero collectors, few people in the mid-60s and 70s started preserving issues of Dennis from the 50s and early 60s. I think the same holds true for almost all kid's books that were targeted for a younger audience.

 

If you think about it, the number of Ducks and Harveys in HG would be miniscule but for the discovery of their respective file copies. Actually, even the number of GA HG superhero books, including the mainstream DC and Timely titles, would be miniscule but for eccentric collectors like Edgar Church and odd historical circumstances like the Tom Reilly collection. As you get into the period from the late 40s to the early 60s, when there are fewer pedigree collections of consistently high quality, it's incredibly difficult to find HG copies of even the mainstream superhero titles. This period, of course, happens to be the era when Dennis came out, so it's not surprising that HG issues are hard to find and perhaps don't even exist. The only pedigree we've seen containing Dennises is the Bethlehem run that Joe has, and Bethlehem is notorious for its lack of consistency in terms of grade. So unless there are file copies of Dennis out there, or copies of Dennis in the White Mountain pedigree or other pedigrees that spanned the 50s, or unless new pedigrees containing books from the 50s (including Dennises) surface, I don't have high hopes for HG copies being found.

[BillyBatson4360]

Actually, I will have to disagree with you, tth2, on the Duck books.

 

A few decades back, I was a friend of Mike Baron (this was before he began writing comics). Mike was one of that group of fans who first penetrated the veil of secrecy surrounding Disney comics and discovered not only the name of Carl Barks, but also his home address.

 

Barks was so flattered at the effort these guys took that he sent them many samples of original art (including an exquisite pen and ink of Scrooge that I assume Baron still has). Anyway, the upshot was that this early goup of guys (most were in their late teens by the time they found Barks) were very busy assembling multiple runs of Barks books back when you could find them at garage sales. The few comic dealers in existence didn't value the books either, so they could be had for a song. I know that several of these guys had found some pretty good condition copies of many of the Barks books. At one time, I even owned a fairly decent copy of the first Uncle Scrooge. By being the first of the funny animal artists to gain recognition many of the Barks books were probably saved in time.

[tth2]

Actually, I will have to disagree with you, tth2, on the Duck books.

 

A few decades back, I was a friend of Mike Baron (this was before he began writing comics). Mike was one of that group of fans who first penetrated the veil of secrecy surrounding Disney comics and discovered not only the name of Carl Barks, but also his home address.

 

Barks was so flattered at the effort these guys took that he sent them many samples of original art (including an exquisite pen and ink of Scrooge that I assume Baron still has). Anyway, the upshot was that this early goup of guys (most were in their late teens by the time they found Barks) were very busy assembling multiple runs of Barks books back when you could find them at garage sales. The few comic dealers in existence didn't value the books either, so they could be had for a song. I know that several of these guys had found some pretty good condition copies of many of the Barks books. At one time, I even owned a fairly decent copy of the first Uncle Scrooge. By being the first of the funny animal artists to gain recognition many of the Barks books were probably saved in time.

Billy, I agree with you that more Ducks survived in HG than most other non-mainstream titles, but I would also be willing to bet that in many cases the file copy is still the best copy out there. File copies, like copies from the top pedigrees, simply never moved or circulated until they got discovered, which is why they stayed in such great shape. Copies that got passed around, at garage sales and conventions, even where people had the best intentions in preserving them, generally don't have the same level of preservation. I hope that there are indeed lots more HG copies out there, though!

 

I'm curious as to when this "discovery" of Carl Barks took place. 60s? 70s? I know by the late 70s and early 80s, his work had already broken out and prices had already moved significantly (relatively speaking).

[FlyingDonut]

Actually, I will have to disagree with you, tth2, on the Duck books.

 

A few decades back, I was a friend of Mike Baron (this was before he began writing comics). Mike was one of that group of fans who first penetrated the veil of secrecy surrounding Disney comics and discovered not only the name of Carl Barks, but also his home address.

 

Barks was so flattered at the effort these guys took that he sent them many samples of original art (including an exquisite pen and ink of Scrooge that I assume Baron still has). Anyway, the upshot was that this early goup of guys (most were in their late teens by the time they found Barks) were very busy assembling multiple runs of Barks books back when you could find them at garage sales. The few comic dealers in existence didn't value the books either, so they could be had for a song. I know that several of these guys had found some pretty good condition copies of many of the Barks books. At one time, I even owned a fairly decent copy of the first Uncle Scrooge. By being the first of the funny animal artists to gain recognition many of the Barks books were probably saved in time.

Billy, I agree with you that more Ducks survived in HG than most other non-mainstream titles, but I would also be willing to bet that in many cases the file copy is still the best copy out there. File copies, like copies from the top pedigrees, simply never moved or circulated until they got discovered, which is why they stayed in such great shape. Copies that got passed around, at garage sales and conventions, even where people had the best intentions in preserving them, generally don't have the same level of preservation. I hope that there are indeed lots more HG copies out there, though!

 

I'm curious as to when this "discovery" of Carl Barks took place. 60s? 70s? I know by the late 70s and early 80s, his work had already broken out and prices had already moved significantly (relatively speaking).

 

There was an article in Comic Book Marketplace() about how a guy found Barks in 1961, went to his house, etc. etc. I would bet that late 40s and 50s Ducks are more prevalent in high grade than you think - they have been actively collected in high grade since at least the mid-60s. I have a couple old RBCCs with ads in them for "Mint" Duck books, and even given the lax grading standards of the time, some of those must have been in high grade. Further, file copies from Dell are notorious for being slightly beat up.

 

That being said, they're probably gorgeous. I'd like to see some file copies here. Maybe a new thread!

 

And, for somebody who NEVER cared about Dennis the Menace, this is a pretty cool thread. I've found a couple 10 cent Dennii (is that the plural of Dennis?) in my boxes, nothing super early, but you Dennis guys are welcome to them once I get the numbers. I'd love for somebody who needs them to have them.

[tth2]

I have a couple old RBCCs with ads in them for "Mint" Duck books, and even given the lax grading standards of the time, some of those must have been in high grade.

True, although query how many of the truly NM copies got further beat up as they got passed around in the 60s and 70s, particularly with no bags or boards, and generally more casual handling because of the more lax grading standards.

 

Further, file copies from Dell are notorious for being slightly beat up.

 

That being said, they're probably gorgeous. I'd like to see some file copies here. Maybe a new thread!

So very very true. I lost a lot of respect for one of the top US collectors after seeing some of the file copies he sold me as "NM" which were VF at best. Having said that, a lot of file copies survived very nicely! If you go to the Ducks thread in the GA forum, quite a few of the books I've posted were file copies, even if only a few are indicated as such.

 

And, for somebody who NEVER cared about Dennis the Menace, this is a pretty cool thread. I've found a couple 10 cent Dennii (is that the plural of Dennis?) in my boxes, nothing super early, but you Dennis guys are welcome to them once I get the numbers. I'd love for somebody who needs them to have them.

List what you've got and asking prices!

[ComicBookGuy]

I think you're both essentially right in your two analyses.

 

Bill's term "starter" book is very apt when discussing Dennis and Disney comics. I like it cause it's true: These are the first comics kids read when they are young and don't know how to care for comics. Not only that, they reread them and even trade them with other kids.

 

The anecdote about fans discovering Barks is interesting, and I've heard about it although with not as interesting detail as Bill related. But there are some big differences: Tim is right that there were a lot of Dell file copies found over the years. The Dennis file copies were of one book apiece and not nearly all issues were in the "files." (That was what Jay Maybruck told me when he sold me the Dennis file copies that I own.) Ketcham points out in his bio that the first issue of Dennis sold out, and when he was told that the issue was sold out, he was told that comic books never sold out, that there were always lots left over and returned. Thus, our modern "warehouse finds," which often are returns that had not been destroyed. I also suspect that the print run on the Dennis books was not that high for the first four issues, the ones we rarely see, especially. Issues 1-4 are in a league of their own. Issues 5-7 a bit more available. Issues #8 and up are much more prevalent, and warehouse copies of some numbers, like 29 and 33 have turned up. Dennis was barely two years old in the papers when #1 came out and was not known in many regions of the country yet, but Disney had been going strong for a long while before the Barks stuff hit the scene.

 

So, Disney had kid readers AND early collectors, multiple file copies of many issues, and high print runs with the typical many unread returns. Whereas, Dennis had kid readers and NO early collectors, hardly any file copies, and low print runs with no returns on the early issues. I would also add that the Dell comics had MUCH better paper quality than the Standard Comics, which have probably the worst paper quality of any comic company I am familiar with.

 

All this leads us to the reason why there is not one verified early Dennis comic above a 7.0 slabbed to this date while there are many beautiful copies of the Barks' comics to be had.

 

 

 

Joe