Are signature series worth getting and should artists charge more for CGC book?

[RockMyAmadeus]

NO ONE is saying that people don't have the right to charge what they want and let the market decide.

 

But it is clear that some people (including many people here seemingly and many creators) have the misconception that the CGC SS sig AUTOMATICALLY adds value above and beyond the slabbing costs. Obviously, as we've seen now, that is generally untrue except in the case of some keys and a decent number of comics that grade 9.8 and higher (the older the better), or some select creators. But while certainly there are many instances where profit occurs, there are far more books that end up in someone's collection or are sold for loss or break-even.

 

RMA is saying that IF people are charging more for CGC based on that wrong assumption of automatic windfalls, they are making a BUSINESS DECISION BASED ON FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, which I think most of us generally prefer not to do, even though we certainly do have the right to do so.

 

I don't think he's saying more than that. He's not saying that there aren't profits to be made on CGC SS, all SS are great, or that all SS suck, or that creators don't deserve money.

 

P.S. If I was a creator, I might just charge CGC people more because they seemingly have more money to spend....(*note to all creators out there: Please do not assume this about me. I do not have more money to spend)

I don't think they're presuming anything. I have a feeling they simply don't like the people who show up with 39 copies of the same comic to get signed with a witness. They may or may not think you're making money, they may or may not be wrong, they most likely don't care either way and are trying to price you out of their line so they can spend more time with people whose company they find more pleasant. I strongly suspect that is the reason they do it.

 

So, you're making judgments about the worthiness, the "pleasantness", of a person in the eyes of a creator, based solely on the amount of copies of a single book he has...?

 

That's an interesting way to look at it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It is interesting that a free market capitalist there should be no minimum wage guy is bemoaning people charging what the market will bear for their "services", but whatever

 

I haven't said anything like that at all. You have misred (or not red at all) what I have said. Perhaps, if you chose to read everything in detail, you might come to a more accurate conclusion.

 

people charge different amounts for goods/services provided in different contexts all the time. were I in private practice i may give a break to an individual on a budget that i would not give to a corporate client so that I can have some warm fuzzies inside. i get a discount for cell phone service because of my employer.

 

There is a difference between discounting based on circumstances, and upcharging based on circumstances.

I go to Lube & Tube because I see a sign saying $30 for an oil change. I'm in a smart car. My oil change is $80, because of circumstances.

 

It's not all that unheard of.

 

Not even remotely the same.

 

Your analogy fails, because your Lube & Tube isn't charging a different amount for the same service based on where the car is driven.

 

It's a different type of car altogether.

A witnessed sig and an unwitnessed personalized sig are different sigs altogether.

 

No they're not.

 

They're exactly the same thing.

 

A signature.

 

And who said anything about it being "personalized"?

[RockMyAmadeus]

It is interesting that a free market capitalist there should be no minimum wage guy is bemoaning people charging what the market will bear for their "services", but whatever

 

I haven't said anything like that at all. You have misred (or not red at all) what I have said. Perhaps, if you chose to read everything in detail, you might come to a more accurate conclusion.

 

people charge different amounts for goods/services provided in different contexts all the time. were I in private practice i may give a break to an individual on a budget that i would not give to a corporate client so that I can have some warm fuzzies inside. i get a discount for cell phone service because of my employer.

 

There is a difference between discounting based on circumstances, and upcharging based on circumstances.

I go to Lube & Tube because I see a sign saying $30 for an oil change. I'm in a smart car. My oil change is $80, because of circumstances.

 

It's not all that unheard of.

 

Not even remotely the same.

Why not? My engine is smaller than average and requires less oil. I assume it wasn't more work because I was in and out of there in about fifteen minutes. Why the 300% upcharge on me?

 

The real reason I pay more at Lube & Tube is because Pep Boys won't work on my vehicle.

 

Because, depending on the type of smart car, it's a different type of car, requiring a completely different process.

 

http://www.evilution.co.uk/411

 

Attempting to make your analogy "fit" with signatures...which are the same, whether the book is witnessed or not...is a stretch beyond the breaking point of credulity.

[revat]

It is interesting that a free market capitalist there should be no minimum wage guy is bemoaning people charging what the market will bear for their "services", but whatever

 

I haven't said anything like that at all. You have misred (or not red at all) what I have said. Perhaps, if you chose to read everything in detail, you might come to a more accurate conclusion.

 

people charge different amounts for goods/services provided in different contexts all the time. were I in private practice i may give a break to an individual on a budget that i would not give to a corporate client so that I can have some warm fuzzies inside. i get a discount for cell phone service because of my employer.

 

There is a difference between discounting based on circumstances, and upcharging based on circumstances.

I go to Lube & Tube because I see a sign saying $30 for an oil change. I'm in a smart car. My oil change is $80, because of circumstances.

 

It's not all that unheard of.

 

Not even remotely the same.

 

Your analogy fails, because your Lube & Tube isn't charging a different amount for the same service based on where the car is driven.

 

It's a different type of car altogether.

A witnessed sig and an unwitnessed personalized sig are different sigs altogether.

 

No they're not.

 

They're exactly the same thing.

 

A signature.

 

And who said anything about it being "personalized"?

 

to the person signing, signing the comic is the same for witness or not.

 

For changing the oil of a smart car, there is an additional level of training and liability involved because of the special design of the car. That additional level of required training and skill required is why you pay more at some places, and can't get it done at others. The fact that the time taken is the same is a non- factor. The same way some restaurants charge different rates than other restaurants.

 

If you got shot, a park ranger might pull the bullet out of your leg a lot faster than a surgeon by fishing it out with the tip of his hunting knife. But that doesn't mean the surgeon should cost the same.

[Transplant]

What thread are you reading?

 

Yeah, Fingh.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

What thread are you reading?

 

Yeah, Fingh.

 

 

Ah, Tranny. What would life be like without you...?

 

 

[Transplant]

A sadder existence?

[rodan57]

 

As long as people are willing to pay it, they should be free to charge whatever they want. .... if the market supports it, they should charge whatever they want.

 

I agree. I don't think that there is any deep moral component. Just business.

[RockMyAmadeus]

A sadder existence?

 

Indeed.

[dupont2005]

And who said anything about it being "personalized"?

I did, because in most cases, the charge is waived for personalized unwitnessed sigs.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And who said anything about it being "personalized"?

I did, because in most cases, the charge is waived for personalized unwitnessed sigs.

 

According to who?

 

And, again...discounting based on circumstances is different from upcharging based on circumstances.

[dupont2005]

For changing the oil of a smart car, there is an additional level of training and liability involved because of the special design of the car. That additional level of required training and skill required is why you pay more at some places, and can't get it done at others.

Nope. It actually has to do with the design of the lift, or if they use a drive-over pit instead. The smart car doesn't work with all equipment, so the shops whose preexisting shop equipment was already compatible with the smart are in a unique position where their competition is severely limited. So they get to charge more, because it's either them or the dealership, who charge even more than that.

 

Nevermind that when I get my oil changed at the dealership I get a free car wash and an SL500 to drive around while my car is worked on.

[dupont2005]

And who said anything about it being "personalized"?

I did, because in most cases, the charge is waived for personalized unwitnessed sigs.

 

According to who?

 

And, again...discounting based on circumstances is different from upcharging based on circumstances.

Discounting based on the signature being unwitnessed and personalized.

[dupont2005]

NO ONE is saying that people don't have the right to charge what they want and let the market decide.

 

But it is clear that some people (including many people here seemingly and many creators) have the misconception that the CGC SS sig AUTOMATICALLY adds value above and beyond the slabbing costs. Obviously, as we've seen now, that is generally untrue except in the case of some keys and a decent number of comics that grade 9.8 and higher (the older the better), or some select creators. But while certainly there are many instances where profit occurs, there are far more books that end up in someone's collection or are sold for loss or break-even.

 

RMA is saying that IF people are charging more for CGC based on that wrong assumption of automatic windfalls, they are making a BUSINESS DECISION BASED ON FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, which I think most of us generally prefer not to do, even though we certainly do have the right to do so.

 

I don't think he's saying more than that. He's not saying that there aren't profits to be made on CGC SS, all SS are great, or that all SS suck, or that creators don't deserve money.

 

P.S. If I was a creator, I might just charge CGC people more because they seemingly have more money to spend....(*note to all creators out there: Please do not assume this about me. I do not have more money to spend)

I don't think they're presuming anything. I have a feeling they simply don't like the people who show up with 39 copies of the same comic to get signed with a witness. They may or may not think you're making money, they may or may not be wrong, they most likely don't care either way and are trying to price you out of their line so they can spend more time with people whose company they find more pleasant. I strongly suspect that is the reason they do it.

 

So, you're making judgments about the worthiness, the "pleasantness", of a person in the eyes of a creator, based solely on the amount of copies of a single book he has...?

 

That's an interesting way to look at it.

No, I'm really making the judgement based on about seven years on these boards, where the discussion of creators and the respect/dignity they deserve has come up on more than one occasion. including this thread, with comments like "Guess which one I commissioned for a sketch later?" type statements are made. These people aren't there to beg for your commissions. You're not Trump, and your $100 isn't going to make or break anyone. It would be worth $100 for me to tell someone like that to go screw off rather than accept their chump change for my art.

[RockMyAmadeus]

For changing the oil of a smart car, there is an additional level of training and liability involved because of the special design of the car. That additional level of required training and skill required is why you pay more at some places, and can't get it done at others.

Nope. It actually has to do with the design of the lift, or if they use a drive-over pit instead. The smart car doesn't work with all equipment, so the shops whose preexisting shop equipment was already compatible with the smart are in a unique position where their competition is severely limited. So they get to charge more, because it's either them or the dealership, who charge even more than that.

 

Nevermind that when I get my oil changed at the dealership I get a free car wash and an SL500 to drive around while my car is worked on.

 

Right..."the smart car doesn't work with all equipment."

 

There's your answer, right there. It's a special type of car, requiring a special type of process.

 

Nothing even remotely like signing a comic book.

[RockMyAmadeus]

NO ONE is saying that people don't have the right to charge what they want and let the market decide.

 

But it is clear that some people (including many people here seemingly and many creators) have the misconception that the CGC SS sig AUTOMATICALLY adds value above and beyond the slabbing costs. Obviously, as we've seen now, that is generally untrue except in the case of some keys and a decent number of comics that grade 9.8 and higher (the older the better), or some select creators. But while certainly there are many instances where profit occurs, there are far more books that end up in someone's collection or are sold for loss or break-even.

 

RMA is saying that IF people are charging more for CGC based on that wrong assumption of automatic windfalls, they are making a BUSINESS DECISION BASED ON FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, which I think most of us generally prefer not to do, even though we certainly do have the right to do so.

 

I don't think he's saying more than that. He's not saying that there aren't profits to be made on CGC SS, all SS are great, or that all SS suck, or that creators don't deserve money.

 

P.S. If I was a creator, I might just charge CGC people more because they seemingly have more money to spend....(*note to all creators out there: Please do not assume this about me. I do not have more money to spend)

I don't think they're presuming anything. I have a feeling they simply don't like the people who show up with 39 copies of the same comic to get signed with a witness. They may or may not think you're making money, they may or may not be wrong, they most likely don't care either way and are trying to price you out of their line so they can spend more time with people whose company they find more pleasant. I strongly suspect that is the reason they do it.

 

So, you're making judgments about the worthiness, the "pleasantness", of a person in the eyes of a creator, based solely on the amount of copies of a single book he has...?

 

That's an interesting way to look at it.

No, I'm really making the judgement based on about seven years on these boards, where the discussion of creators and the respect/dignity they deserve has come up on more than one occasion. including this thread, with comments like "Guess which one I commissioned for a sketch later?" type statements are made. These people aren't there to beg for your commissions. You're not Trump, and your $100 isn't going to make or break anyone. It would be worth $100 for me to tell someone like that to go screw off rather than accept their chump change for my art.

 

That's a conclusion you arrive at based on somebody's words posted on a message board. The creator in front of them is almost guaranteed not to A. have red those words, and if they have, B. know who said it amongst the hundreds or thousands of people they see in a typical con.

 

So, your statement that they would rather deal with "people whose company they find more pleasant" doesn't hold water.

 

And even on the chance that they can identify the fan who made that post in their line...so? Are we that afraid of criticism? Will we forever quiver at being honest with each other, for fear of offending? Because I guarantee you, it's a hell of a lot more respectful of people to be honest with them, rather than pretending everything is all wine and roses.

 

What was so offensive about someone saying "this artist charged X, and this artist charged Y, and THIS artist charged NOTHING. I chose to give my further business to the artist who charged NOTHING for his sig"...? He didn't say anything about expecting anyone to "beg" for a commission.

 

You see offense where there is none.

 

 

[dupont2005]

For changing the oil of a smart car, there is an additional level of training and liability involved because of the special design of the car. That additional level of required training and skill required is why you pay more at some places, and can't get it done at others.

Nope. It actually has to do with the design of the lift, or if they use a drive-over pit instead. The smart car doesn't work with all equipment, so the shops whose preexisting shop equipment was already compatible with the smart are in a unique position where their competition is severely limited. So they get to charge more, because it's either them or the dealership, who charge even more than that.

 

Nevermind that when I get my oil changed at the dealership I get a free car wash and an SL500 to drive around while my car is worked on.

 

Right..."the smart car doesn't work with all equipment."

 

There's your answer, right there. It's a special type of car, requiring a special type of process.

 

Nothing even remotely like signing a comic book.

No. When I take it to a place with a drive-over pit, they drive it over the pit exactly as if it were a Camry. They charge ME more because that Camry would also work with a lift at Pep Boys.

[dupont2005]

NO ONE is saying that people don't have the right to charge what they want and let the market decide.

 

But it is clear that some people (including many people here seemingly and many creators) have the misconception that the CGC SS sig AUTOMATICALLY adds value above and beyond the slabbing costs. Obviously, as we've seen now, that is generally untrue except in the case of some keys and a decent number of comics that grade 9.8 and higher (the older the better), or some select creators. But while certainly there are many instances where profit occurs, there are far more books that end up in someone's collection or are sold for loss or break-even.

 

RMA is saying that IF people are charging more for CGC based on that wrong assumption of automatic windfalls, they are making a BUSINESS DECISION BASED ON FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, which I think most of us generally prefer not to do, even though we certainly do have the right to do so.

 

I don't think he's saying more than that. He's not saying that there aren't profits to be made on CGC SS, all SS are great, or that all SS suck, or that creators don't deserve money.

 

P.S. If I was a creator, I might just charge CGC people more because they seemingly have more money to spend....(*note to all creators out there: Please do not assume this about me. I do not have more money to spend)

I don't think they're presuming anything. I have a feeling they simply don't like the people who show up with 39 copies of the same comic to get signed with a witness. They may or may not think you're making money, they may or may not be wrong, they most likely don't care either way and are trying to price you out of their line so they can spend more time with people whose company they find more pleasant. I strongly suspect that is the reason they do it.

 

So, you're making judgments about the worthiness, the "pleasantness", of a person in the eyes of a creator, based solely on the amount of copies of a single book he has...?

 

That's an interesting way to look at it.

No, I'm really making the judgement based on about seven years on these boards, where the discussion of creators and the respect/dignity they deserve has come up on more than one occasion. including this thread, with comments like "Guess which one I commissioned for a sketch later?" type statements are made. These people aren't there to beg for your commissions. You're not Trump, and your $100 isn't going to make or break anyone. It would be worth $100 for me to tell someone like that to go screw off rather than accept their chump change for my art.

 

That's a conclusion you arrive at based on somebody's words posted on a message board. The creator in front of them is almost guaranteed not to A. have red those words, and if they have, B. know who said it amongst the hundreds or thousands of people they see in a typical con.

 

 

They're 100% guaranteed to be face to face with someone who has little respect for them as an artist or a human being, someone who thinks because they bought the comic they are owed some courtesy by the creator. I'd imagine someone making jerk comments about creators on a message board can be a jerk in person too.

[dupont2005]

For example, I can be a major jerk, but I wouldn't be toward a creator because I thought he owed me a signature.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Ok. I'm not sure how any of that relates to the discussion, because no one said anyone owed anyone anything, but hey, whatever floats your boat.